one-shot fixer for paper

serched the net and posted questions on this groups, but i've not yet
very clear on one of my questons: how do i mix and use one-shot none-
acid none-hardener sodium thiosulfate fixer for print paper.

1, i want to use sodium thiosulfate only. is it okay?
2, and, for its capacity and usage, i want to know if my below
thinkings are right:

because i found an article on the net which said that per liter of
Kodak acid hardening fixer can process 14,500 sq cm, that is 2274.5
in^2. i think, in one liter of such solution, there are 240 grams of
sodium thiosulfate. so, i deduced that per gram of sodium thiosulfate
can do 9.365 in^2. so, if i use 120 grams of sodium thiosulfate to
make a 500ml solution, which should do 120*9.365 in^2, i.e. 14 sheets
of 8x10 papers which is a reasonable amount of papers i ususally run
in a single session. and, because 120grams in 500ml solution has same
concentration compared to original Kodak F-5 formula, so i think i
don't need to alter fixing time.

how about this? and, because there is no acid in the fixer, can i
still use acid stop bath without run in trouble? or, a step further,
is it necessary to use the stop bath?

thanks for any inputs.

-
woody

Steven Woody wrote:
how about this? and, because there is no acid in the fixer, can i
still use acid stop bath without run in trouble? or, a step further,
is it necessary to use the stop bath?

The purpose of a stop bath is to stop development. This prevents your
prints from continuing to develop in the fixer. The same thing can
be said (among other reasons) for acid in the fixer.

Unless you are short of space or money, or out of it, using an acid
stop bath makes a lot of sense. If you develop by inspection, it
is critical.

If you were to develop prints by inspection (looking at them) and
then take them from the developer and put them in a non acid stop
bath, then you would find they are darker. If you did not agitate
properly, you would find they are not consistent, some areas
stopped developing later than others.

The same also applies for film.

At one time regular RC papers had developing chemicals in them and
absoultely need acid fixer or stop bath to remove any that were left.
This is not the same as "rapid" paper which had the developer in it.

I don't know if the current production papers have them in it or not,
it may have gone out with the 1970's.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:35:46 -0700, Steven
Woody wrote:

and, because there is no acid in the fixer, can i
still use acid stop bath without run in trouble? or, a step further,
is it necessary to use the stop bath?



June 20, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

Since you've chosen to eliminate acid from
the fix, now is the opportune time to delete
acid from your darkroom and switch to a water
stop.

The benefits of non-acid FB paper and film
processing are very attractive to me, because
I find the various smells produced in the
darkroom cease to be produced when acid is
not present. I want darkroom air to be the
same as in other rooms (living rooms, that is
....).

Four changes of water in my print processing
tray is what I use for a stop bath. Developer
is fairly nearly completely soaked out, so
stains do not result later (such as in the
fix).

I've written a lot of darkroom blather on
this subject on my website. It's under the
technical button on the table of contents.

Using a darkroom regimen that a) eliminates
the use of acid completely, b) uses
single-tray processing and c) uses
single-shot dilute fixing a la Dan Quinn,
it's possible to make FB prints rigorously to
very high standards in a very small space
with very little paraphernalia such as
multiple trays and storage jugs, and no
smell. Even the use of sodium sulfite is
reduced if straight sodium thiosulfate is
used for fixer and discarded. The single-tray
approach lets one change paper size at whim,
too, so a 20x24 can follow an 8x10 if
desired, with very little effort.

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website: www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email:
________________________________
--

On Jun 20, 8:42 pm, Lloyd Erlick Lloyd at @the-wire. dot com wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:35:46 -0700, Steven

Woody wrote:
and, because there is no acid in the fixer, can i
still use acid stop bath without run in trouble? or, a step further,
is it necessary to use the stop bath?

June 20, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

Since you've chosen to eliminate acid from
the fix, now is the opportune time to delete
acid from your darkroom and switch to a water
stop.

The benefits of non-acid FB paper and film
processing are very attractive to me, because
I find the various smells produced in the
darkroom cease to be produced when acid is
not present. I want darkroom air to be the
same as in other rooms (living rooms, that is
...).

Four changes of water in my print processing
tray is what I use for a stop bath. Developer
is fairly nearly completely soaked out, so
stains do not result later (such as in the
fix).

I've written a lot of darkroom blather on
this subject on my website. It's under the
technical button on the table of contents.

Using a darkroom regimen that a) eliminates
the use of acid completely, b) uses
single-tray processing and c) uses
single-shot dilute fixing a la Dan Quinn,
it's possible to make FB prints rigorously to
very high standards in a very small space
with very little paraphernalia such as
multiple trays and storage jugs, and no
smell. Even the use of sodium sulfite is
reduced if straight sodium thiosulfate is
used for fixer and discarded. The single-tray
approach lets one change paper size at whim,
too, so a 20x24 can follow an 8x10 if
desired, with very little effort.

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website:www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email:
________________________________
--

many thanks, and i go to study your website. a question i want ask
before that is, if i dont care about the smells of acid, does it do
any harm using a acid stop bath? the reason why i think that is, even
though many water bathes can stop the development completly as you
described, the development may still not be immediately stopped, and
since the fixer gets no acid, putting film/paper into an acid stop
bath can save me from increasing of development. i am just not sure
if it is okay to fix in a non-acid fixer immediately after an acid
stop bath, should i rinse the film/paper before fixing and after treat
them in stop batch?

-
woody

June 20, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,



On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:51:43 -0700, Steven
Woody wrote:

the development may still not be immediately stopped,

Well, immediately stopped, strictly defined,
no, and it never is. Things take time.

But it is awfully quickly diluted by the
first slosh of water dumped over it. Since my
usual development times are many minutes in
full working strength developer, a few
seconds in more-and-more diluted developer as
water-stop is applied will not develop enough
extra density to be visible.

In any case, the 'extra' density, if it
existed, would be included in one's
assessment of the finished image, and
probably rather consistently so. Some small
extra density might even exist in the case of
acid stop. even that process takes some small
length of time. I think both cases are
academic and insignificant to what we do in
the darkroom.

....
and
since the fixer gets no acid, putting film/paper into an acid stop
bath can save me from increasing of development. i am just not sure
if it is okay to fix in a non-acid fixer immediately after an acid
stop bath, should i rinse the film/paper before fixing and after treat
them in stop batch?


It's bad policy to unceremoniously introduce
acid into a sodium thiosulfate solution --
especially in the case of Dan Quinn's dilute
one-shot fixer, which is basically straight
sodium thiosulfate unchaperoned by sodium
sulfite. A sudden hit of acid could
precipitate a bit if sulfur or cause sulfur
dioxide to come out. I hate that.

So, if you use a non-acid fixer, but insist
on an acid stop, it is best to rinse the acid
off the material before putting it into the
fix.

I must say, I've tried all the variations.
Fiber base paper materials are very sensitive
to small variations in method. The acid in
acid stop bath is impossible to rinse out
completely, no matter how many rinses one
applies (well, no matter what reasonable
amount of time one wants to spend
rinsing...). That is true of acetic acid and
citric acid stop baths. Either one can lead
to bad smell in the fixer no matter how well
rinsed. It's just that a few rinses gets out
so much acid that it's very rare to smell
anything in the fix.

However, the real effect of
impossible-to-rinse-out acid is on the
selenium toner bath. I keep mine long term,
because it's expensive. If any acid gets in
it, it turns dark and murky with some sort of
black or dark brown precipitate. Eventually
it stains prints, and I can't filter it
completely. Anyway, I just hate the murk.

I was surprised when the murky precipitate
ceased when I stopped using an acid stop that
I attempted to rinse off. I just rinsed the
developer away as best I could, and my
selenium toner bath stopped throwing the
black precipitate. Mine is now several years
old, and is close to water clear. All I have
to do is filter it with a plain coffee filter
as frequently as I can bear.

Acid is unnecessary, and things are easier
without it. In a normal, regular, "ordinary"
black and white darkroom, such as mine and I
bet lots of peoples', acid should be
considered a material for specialized
processes, not for regular ordinary day to
day film and FB or RC print processing.

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website: www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email:
________________________________
--

On Jun 19, 9:35 am, Steven Woody wrote:

serched the net and posted questions on this groups, but i've not yet
very clear on one of my questons: how do i mix and use one-shot none-
acid none-hardener sodium thiosulfate fixer for print paper.


Last night I mixed up a small batch of S. Thio. only fixer to use
this
evening. I weighed out 5.6 grams of S. Thio. anhydrous. That quantity
is
targeted to process four 5x7 test prints; one each of the four papers
I've
mentioned. That amount of S. Thio. was dissolved in an amount of
distilled H2O sufficient to fill 2, 1 ounce Boston Round bottles.
With the solution clear the bottles were filled and caped.

When used each of the two bottles in turn will be brought to a
solution volume of 280ml and that volume split twixt two cups
each of which have been calibrated to hold 140ml. That 140
is the solution volume for each 5x7. It is the 1% S. Thio.
strength fixer.

Also evening last I did the same as above but added same
amount of sodium carbonate mon-hydrate. Again 2, 1 ounce
bottles. A series of carbonated tests of the four papers is
also to be done.


1, i want to use sodium thiosulfate only. is it okay?


I suggest the proceedure I've detailed above. If you are ready to
process then it may be practical to mix directly to final solution
volume
at start. Hold in as many cups as are intended prints. For example
I'll be
doing 2, 5x7s. If time permits I'll dilute a second bottle and do two
more.
The fixer go's into the tray only a very little expsoed to the
atmosphere.



2, and, for its capacity and usage, i want to know if my below
thinkings are right:

because i found an article on the net which said that per liter of
Kodak acid hardening fixer can process 14,500 sq cm, that is 2274.5
in^2. i think, in one liter of such solution, there are 240 grams of
sodium thiosulfate. so, i deduced that per gram of sodium thiosulfate
can do 9.365 in^2. so, if i use 120 grams of sodium thiosulfate to
make a 500ml solution, which should do 120*9.365 in^2, i.e. 14 sheets
of 8x10 papers which is a reasonable amount of papers i ususally run
in a single session. and, because 120grams in 500ml solution has same
concentration compared to original Kodak F-5 formula, so i think i
don't need to alter fixing time.

how about this? and, because there is no acid in the fixer, can i
still use acid stop bath without run in trouble? or, a step further,
is it necessary to use the stop bath?

thanks for any inputs. woody


I'll post back on the remainder of your, this, post. Dan

On Jun 21, 5:34 am, Lloyd Erlick Lloyd at @the-wire. dot com wrote:
June 20, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:51:43 -0700, Steven

Woody wrote:
the development may still not be immediately stopped,

Well, immediately stopped, strictly defined,
no, and it never is. Things take time.

But it is awfully quickly diluted by the
first slosh of water dumped over it. Since my
usual development times are many minutes in
full working strength developer, a few
seconds in more-and-more diluted developer as
water-stop is applied will not develop enough
extra density to be visible.

In any case, the 'extra' density, if it
existed, would be included in one's
assessment of the finished image, and
probably rather consistently so. Some small
extra density might even exist in the case of
acid stop. even that process takes some small
length of time. I think both cases are
academic and insignificant to what we do in
the darkroom.

...
and

since the fixer gets no acid, putting film/paper into an acid stop
bath can save me from increasing of development. i am just not sure
if it is okay to fix in a non-acid fixer immediately after an acid
stop bath, should i rinse the film/paper before fixing and after treat
them in stop batch?

It's bad policy to unceremoniously introduce
acid into a sodium thiosulfate solution --
especially in the case of Dan Quinn's dilute
one-shot fixer, which is basically straight
sodium thiosulfate unchaperoned by sodium
sulfite. A sudden hit of acid could
precipitate a bit if sulfur or cause sulfur
dioxide to come out. I hate that.

So, if you use a non-acid fixer, but insist
on an acid stop, it is best to rinse the acid
off the material before putting it into the
fix.

I must say, I've tried all the variations.
Fiber base paper materials are very sensitive
to small variations in method. The acid in
acid stop bath is impossible to rinse out
completely, no matter how many rinses one
applies (well, no matter what reasonable
amount of time one wants to spend
rinsing...). That is true of acetic acid and
citric acid stop baths. Either one can lead
to bad smell in the fixer no matter how well
rinsed. It's just that a few rinses gets out
so much acid that it's very rare to smell
anything in the fix.

However, the real effect of
impossible-to-rinse-out acid is on the
selenium toner bath. I keep mine long term,
because it's expensive. If any acid gets in
it, it turns dark and murky with some sort of
black or dark brown precipitate. Eventually
it stains prints, and I can't filter it
completely. Anyway, I just hate the murk.

I was surprised when the murky precipitate
ceased when I stopped using an acid stop that
I attempted to rinse off. I just rinsed the
developer away as best I could, and my
selenium toner bath stopped throwing the
black precipitate. Mine is now several years
old, and is close to water clear. All I have
to do is filter it with a plain coffee filter
as frequently as I can bear.

Acid is unnecessary, and things are easier
without it. In a normal, regular, "ordinary"
black and white darkroom, such as mine and I
bet lots of peoples', acid should be
considered a material for specialized
processes, not for regular ordinary day to
day film and FB or RC print processing.

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website:www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email:
________________________________
--

thanks Lloyd, i now decide to skeep the acid stop bath :-) and, i am
interesting in, for your one-tray processing, how do you preven print
papers from going out of the tray when you pour the solution out to
the bottle beside without using your fingers. can you decribe it?

a lot of thanks.

-
woody

"Lloyd Erlick" Lloyd at @the-wire. dot com wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:35:46 -0700, Steven
Woody wrote:

and, because there is no acid in the fixer, can i
still use acid stop bath without run in trouble? or, a step further,
is it necessary to use the stop bath?



June 20, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

Since you've chosen to eliminate acid from
the fix, now is the opportune time to delete
acid from your darkroom and switch to a water
stop.

The benefits of non-acid FB paper and film
processing are very attractive to me, because
I find the various smells produced in the
darkroom cease to be produced when acid is
not present. I want darkroom air to be the
same as in other rooms (living rooms, that is
...).

Four changes of water in my print processing
tray is what I use for a stop bath. Developer
is fairly nearly completely soaked out, so
stains do not result later (such as in the
fix).

I've written a lot of darkroom blather on
this subject on my website. It's under the
technical button on the table of contents.
snip
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website: www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email:
________________________________
--


While I don't share Mr Erlick's dislike of acid/smells in the darkroom ("I
love the smell of RA-4 in the morning... It's smells like... photography..."
paraphrase from 'Apocalyse Now'), his website is filled to the rafters with
many good ideas. After you've perused his articles, don't forget to check
out his portraits. It's time well spent.

On Jun 22, 5:03 am, "Ken Hart" wrote:
"Lloyd Erlick" Lloyd at @the-wire. dot com wrote in messagenews:597i73li77l81fvjnsu6fqdlqlhg9dort2@4ax .com...

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:35:46 -0700, Steven
Woody wrote:

and, because there is no acid in the fixer, can i
still use acid stop bath without run in trouble? or, a step further,
is it necessary to use the stop bath?

June 20, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

Since you've chosen to eliminate acid from
the fix, now is the opportune time to delete
acid from your darkroom and switch to a water
stop.

The benefits of non-acid FB paper and film
processing are very attractive to me, because
I find the various smells produced in the
darkroom cease to be produced when acid is
not present. I want darkroom air to be the
same as in other rooms (living rooms, that is
...).

Four changes of water in my print processing
tray is what I use for a stop bath. Developer
is fairly nearly completely soaked out, so
stains do not result later (such as in the
fix).

I've written a lot of darkroom blather on
this subject on my website. It's under the
technical button on the table of contents.
snip

________________________________

Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website:www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email:
________________________________
--

While I don't share Mr Erlick's dislike of acid/smells in the darkroom ("I
love the smell of RA-4 in the morning... It's smells like... photography..."
paraphrase from 'Apocalyse Now'), his website is filled to the rafters with
many good ideas. After you've perused his articles, don't forget to check
out his portraits. It's time well spent.

yes, i do like his portraits. i just can not image how can he pour
solution out of his singal tray without using a finger to keep paper
from coming out as well as solutions. can you understand?

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 15:31:39 -0000, Steven
Woody wrote:

for your one-tray processing, how do you preven print
papers from going out of the tray when you pour the solution out to
the bottle beside without using your fingers. can you decribe it?



June 22, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

I worried about that, too, before I tried it.

When the paper is wet and touching the bottom
of the tray as it empties, just try to get it
loose. Wet paper sticks pretty good ...

The only way to remove the wet sheet from the
empty tray is to carefully lift one corner
and peel the whole thing up gently and
slowly.

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website: www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email:
________________________________
--