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#1
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Monitor calibration and color managed workflow question
Hi,
I bought a Colorvision Spyder and calibrated my monitor. It really helped. However, I am not really sure how this works and I fear I might be double-color-managing. The Spyder generates an ICC profile, puts it somewhere into windows directory and registers it with the graphics card. On startup the ProfileChooser takes the default profile and loads it into graphics card. That means that I am able to see accurate colors with applications that are not color managed - web browser, ... What I do not understand is what happens when I edit the photo in Photoshop Elements (I do not have the 'big' PS, so I am not sure whether this is different there). If it also uses the default profile taken from windows, I get double color-managing. And I think this is really the case - when I open the same image in the PSE and in the default browser, it looks that the result is not the same - there are subtle differences in skin tones. How is this supposed to work? Is there any way to have both the non-managed and managed applications to display the same (i.e. let the Profile Chooser load the lookup tables and tell the Photoshop etc. to use sRGB or whatever the display expects when the conversion is done down in the LUT)? Or does the PSE _always_ use the default monitor profile, whatever that is? Thanks -- Stano |
#2
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Monitor calibration and color managed workflow question
Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) wrote:
I thought this was the case as well, but was corrected by Bill Hilton. The colors on non-managed apps will be better, but not as good as in a color managed app. Hmm... How do you have color management set in PSE? IIRC, by default PSE3, which I'm using a bit, sets full color management and uses the Adobe RGB color space. Yes, that's how I am using this. So you will see a difference . Ahhhh .. yes, you are right, it can well be that I compared the picture that is in the Adobe RGB space - so that's why I saw the difference.. OK, I'll repeat my tests with sRGB picture and PSE set to sRGB space. Then the colors should be the same in the PSE and other browsers, right? What you don't want to do is double manage prints. Either use in the application you are printing from or the print driver, but not both. Yup. In fact I am trying to get the closest match possible with my printer (Epson 1800) and regardless of what I am using, I am still getting visible differences in exactly the same colors, that the spyder touches the most. Being a technical type, I would still like to fully understand how the PSE, display profile and ProfileChooser play together in this scenario - does anyone have a pointer to some technical resources? Maybe I also try to contact Colorvision, as only they know for sure what the ProfileChooser does. Thanks -- Stano |
#3
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Monitor calibration and color managed workflow question
"Stanislav Meduna" wrote in message
... Hi, I bought a Colorvision Spyder and calibrated my monitor. It really helped. However, I am not really sure how this works and I fear I might be double-color-managing. The Spyder generates an ICC profile, puts it somewhere into windows directory and registers it with the graphics card. On startup the ProfileChooser takes the default profile and loads it into graphics card. That means that I am able to see accurate colors with applications that are not color managed - web browser, ... What I do not understand is what happens when I edit the photo in Photoshop Elements (I do not have the 'big' PS, so I am not sure whether this is different there). If it also uses the default profile taken from windows, I get double color-managing. And I think this is really the case - when I open the same image in the PSE and in the default browser, it looks that the result is not the same - there are subtle differences in skin tones. How is this supposed to work? Is there any way to have both the non-managed and managed applications to display the same (i.e. let the Profile Chooser load the lookup tables and tell the Photoshop etc. to use sRGB or whatever the display expects when the conversion is done down in the LUT)? Or does the PSE _always_ use the default monitor profile, whatever that is? Thanks -- Stano Hi there. You are, like a great many other people, getting a little mixed up between your Monitor Profile and the Working Space Profile. Your Monitor Profile, "Spyder"ed one, is only for showing the corrected colours on the screen. It adjusts the numbers from the Working Space Profile ( Adobe RGB) to correct for any inherent errors in the colours your Monitor would show. Your Spyder software should have put the profile into the correct folder, and made it the "Default" Monitor Profile. Check this in Display Properties Settings Advanced Colour Management. It should be the only profile there, and it should be set as "Default". Any problems with Colour, could be due to Adobe Gamma. You need to remove that from the "Start Up" Folder, because otherwise it will probably try to adjust the Monitor Colour, Double Profiling. You also need to get a Printer Profile, to ensure that your Printer gives you the correct colours. If your Scanner or Camera can not be set to "Tag" your images with Adobe RGB as the Working Space Profile, or can not "Tag" any Profile, then they are almost certainly working in sRGB. The big problem with Elements is that you can not select which Profile to use as Working Space, it just seems to use Adobe RGB. There will always be some differences in Colour between what you see on Screen and what comes out of the Printer. In the Big PS you can use "Soft Proof" to show what it will look like using the Printer Profile for whatever Paper you plan to Print on. That is much closer, but is still not exact. Roy G |
#4
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Monitor calibration and color managed workflow question
I thought this was the case as well, but was corrected by Bill Hilton. The
colors on non-managed apps will be better, but not as good as in a color managed app. Ahhhh .. yes, you are right, it can well be that I compared the picture that is in the Adobe RGB space - so that's why I saw the difference.. OK, I'll repeat my tests with sRGB picture and PSE set to sRGB space. Then the colors should be the same in the PSE and other browsers, right? No. Having a profiled monitor means that any application that uses colour management "knows" what the screen looks like. That means the application can adjust its colour output such that it can show you what your image will look like on any other device (such as a printer) provided the application also has access to an accurate profile for the other device. Your web browser doesn't take note of colour profiles. It will make no effort to adjust its output to match PSE or any other application. It just throws the image onto the screen. If you want to see your image the same in Photoshop and your browser, you have to tell Photoshop that's what you want. Then Photoshop will also "throw the image onto the screen" without fussing over profiles. Under the full Photoshop you do that by selecting "Monitor RGB" as your soft-proof colour space. I'm not sure how it works under PSE. |
#5
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Monitor calibration and color managed workflow question
Tesco News wrote:
Your Monitor Profile, "Spyder"ed one, is only for showing the corrected colours on the screen. It adjusts the numbers from the Working Space Profile ( Adobe RGB) to correct for any inherent errors in the colours your Monitor would show. OK, maybe this is something that I don't understand. My expectation is that first the working space (whatever that is, sRGB or Adobe RGB) gets converted to something independent (CIE Lab), using the Adobe RGB ICC. Then this gets converted to whatever the monitor expects using the monitor ICC. Am I right? Or does the PSE simply feed the display with whatever binary pixel values it currently has, expecting the graphics card to take care of that using the Spyder-ed data? Your Spyder software should have put the profile into the correct folder, and made it the "Default" Monitor Profile. Check this in Display Properties Settings Advanced Colour Management. It should be the only profile there, and it should be set as "Default". It is not the only one (I created profiles for two displays and more brightness settings), but it is the default one. Any problems with Colour, could be due to Adobe Gamma. You need to remove that from the "Start Up" Folder, because otherwise it will probably try to adjust the Monitor Colour, Double Profiling. Yup, did that already. You also need to get a Printer Profile, to ensure that your Printer gives you the correct colours. The Epson R1800 has a set of profiles and various other options - I got the best match setting the printer to 'Adobe RGB' with gamma 2.2 and using that as printer profile. Next best was the profile suplied by Epson, applied by the PS (with color mgmt disabled in printer driver). Something that can be downloaded from Epson as supposedly even better profile was worse. I am using original inks, original paper and printing mode that matches the profile. If your Scanner or Camera can not be set to "Tag" your images with Adobe RGB as the Working Space Profile, or can not "Tag" any Profile, then they are almost certainly working in sRGB. My camera allows me to choose that - I shoot with Adobe RGB + embed profile. However, at this moment I am trying to match display and printer - these things come later. The test image I tried to view and print is tagged with Adobe RGB. The big problem with Elements is that you can not select which Profile to use as Working Space, it just seems to use Adobe RGB. Aha. Does it matter for colors well within the gamut of both the display and printer? There will always be some differences in Colour between what you see on Screen and what comes out of the Printer. In the Big PS you can use "Soft Proof" to show what it will look like using the Printer Profile for whatever Paper you plan to Print on. That is much closer, but is still not exact. Interesting. What exactly does this soft proof mode do (in terms of what profile gets applied when)? Thanks -- Stano |
#6
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Monitor calibration and color managed workflow question
Roy G writes ...
The big problem with Elements is that you can not select which Profile to use as Working Space, it just seems to use Adobe RGB. Edit - Color Settings lets you pick between 'no color management', 'limited color management' (sRGB) or 'full color management' (AdobeRGB). I think it actually defaults to sRGB and you have to change it to get AdobeRGB (this is with Elements 3, may be different with 4 or 2). Also, if you open a file in a different color space like, say, Ektaspace, it recognizes the profile and lets you work in that space for that file. Bill |
#7
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Monitor calibration and color managed workflow question
Stano writes ...
What exactly does this soft proof mode do (in terms of what profile gets applied when)? When you print a file the RGB values get translated by the software into different numbers for the printer, ideally so that what spits out on the print ('hard proof') looks as close as possible to what you see on the screen. This translation is a basic concept behind the ICC color managment flow, explained well here ....http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/13605.html What 'soft proofing' does is try to emulate what the final print will look like by changing the brightness and colors on the screen to mimic how the final print will appear. So you have a 'soft proof' on the monitor and after you apply the printer profile you can make edits for contrast and color for that particular paper/ink profile, if necessary (usually best to put these in a separate layer set). If you have a good monitor, accurate monitor profile and accurate printer profiles then you can usually get 90-98% accuracy, but there are a lot of bad profiles floating around so for many people it doesn't work accurately. Here's an article explaining it in more detail ... http://www.creativepro.com/story/fea...l?origin=story This feature was added in Photoshop 6 and Elements typically lags Photoshop in features by 2-3 versions, so maybe Adobe has included it with V 4 or perhaps in V 5 (it's not in Elements 3). Bill |
#8
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Monitor calibration and color managed workflow question
"Bill Hilton" wrote in message
oups.com... Roy G writes ... The big problem with Elements is that you can not select which Profile to use as Working Space, it just seems to use Adobe RGB. Edit - Color Settings lets you pick between 'no color management', 'limited color management' (sRGB) or 'full color management' (AdobeRGB). I think it actually defaults to sRGB and you have to change it to get AdobeRGB (this is with Elements 3, may be different with 4 or 2). Also, if you open a file in a different color space like, say, Ektaspace, it recognizes the profile and lets you work in that space for that file. Bill Thanks Bill. That is what I originally suspected Elements was doing, but recently while using it on my daughters machine, all her images seemed to be Tagged with Adobe RGB. Yet, after bringing some of them home, Ps brought up the Untagged Dialogue when opening them. I normally use Ps CS on my own machine, and gave her Elements 2 which I got free with a scanner, so I am not very expert with it. Roy G |
#9
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Monitor calibration and color managed workflow question
Roy G writes ...
recently while using it (Elements 2) on my daughters machine, all her images seemed to be Tagged with Adobe RGB. Yet, after bringing some of them home, Ps brought up the Untagged Dialogue when opening them. In Elements 3 when you do a Save As (and probably 'save' as well) there's a check box for 'Save Options - Color: ICC Profile' and if this is checked it seems to attach the named profile, which Photoshop then picks up. So maybe this is unchecked on your daughter's machine or maybe Elements 2 is different than 3 on this. I normally use Ps CS on my own machine, and gave her Elements 2 which I got free with a scanner, so I am not very expert with it. I'm in the same boat, a Photoshop user since V 4 with several bundled copies of Elements that came with scanners and digital cameras. A friend is a newbie to digital stuff and got Elements free with his scanner so I loaded one of my copies and tried to help him learn the basics, but I'm not very good with it either Bill |
#10
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Monitor calibration and color managed workflow question
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