Nosey Clerks Turning People Into Police

This link here got me started on something about clerks turning people in
who get their film developed.

Link:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/...rtnersite=espn

It talks about students who painted the side of a mountain as a sort of
rivalry with another neighboring school. They took photos of the event
turned in the film and are now dealing with a felony because of a clerk
seeing the photos and calling the police.

I started thinking about how now things are touchy with regards to, say,
persons photographing their kids in the tub and what not and getting in
trouble with police because of lab employees assuming the worst and calling
the police.

With this case, if I were those Utah players, frankly I'd want to wait at
the lab for the same employee to get off work, then I'd beat the **** out of
him (or her) for not minding their own business.

I was also thinking: if I, say, were photographing a friend's child in the
tub etc and turned the photos in, I think I'd make a point of seeing who
worked there--I'd look behind the counter etc--and if the police questioned
me I'd have half a mind to beat the snot out of the lab employees for making
a fuss.

It occurs to me: these clerks need to be like the Swiss Bank people and mind
their own business. People should be able to take photos of whatever in the
jollies they feel like without worrying about such things. I mean, the odds
that photos of someone's child of a tub being child pornography is nothing
compared to the far likelier scenario of it simply being typical parents
taking pictures of their typical kids, nothing.

Thing is: nothing ever gets written about people getting into trouble like
this having done nothing wrong--getting into trouble due to overzealous
photo clerks who don't mind their own business. It occurs to me something
needs to be done about this; their needs to be legal or vigelante type of
justice to make these photo clerks just do their job and mind their own
business--and stop causing trouble.

Thoughts?

LRH

On 10-Jun-2004, "Larry R Harrison Jr" wrote:

This link here got me started on something about clerks turning people in
who get their film developed.

Link:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/...rtnersite=espn

It talks about students who painted the side of a mountain as a sort of
rivalry with another neighboring school. They took photos of the event
turned in the film and are now dealing with a felony because of a clerk
seeing the photos and calling the police.

I started thinking about how now things are touchy with regards to, say,
persons photographing their kids in the tub and what not and getting in
trouble with police because of lab employees assuming the worst and
calling
the police.

With this case, if I were those Utah players, frankly I'd want to wait at
the lab for the same employee to get off work, then I'd beat the **** out
of
him (or her) for not minding their own business.

I was also thinking: if I, say, were photographing a friend's child in the
tub etc and turned the photos in, I think I'd make a point of seeing who
worked there--I'd look behind the counter etc--and if the police
questioned
me I'd have half a mind to beat the snot out of the lab employees for
making
a fuss.

It occurs to me: these clerks need to be like the Swiss Bank people and
mind
their own business. People should be able to take photos of whatever in
the
jollies they feel like without worrying about such things. I mean, the
odds
that photos of someone's child of a tub being child pornography is nothing
compared to the far likelier scenario of it simply being typical parents
taking pictures of their typical kids, nothing.

Thing is: nothing ever gets written about people getting into trouble like
this having done nothing wrong--getting into trouble due to overzealous
photo clerks who don't mind their own business. It occurs to me something
needs to be done about this; their needs to be legal or vigelante type of
justice to make these photo clerks just do their job and mind their own
business--and stop causing trouble.

Thoughts?

1) I've read numerous reports of this type of problem, not just with photo
clerks.
2) Beating people up is a felony and far worse than reporting suspicious
photos.
3) Near here a clerk is a hero because she spotted photos of a kid with a
bunch of explosives and weapons. Some think she prevented a Columbine style
attack on a school.
4) The police/DA are the real problem. The clerks have little or no
training.
5) People stupid enough to take pictures of themselves committing a crime
shouldn't be surprised when they get reported.


--
Tom Thackrey
www.creative-light.com
tom (at) creative (dash) light (dot) com
do NOT send email to (it's reserved for spammers)

"Larry R Harrison Jr" wrote:

...I'd have half a mind...

I think that about sums it up...

"Tom Thackrey" wrote in message
. ..

On 10-Jun-2004, "Larry R Harrison Jr" wrote:

This link here got me started on something about clerks turning people
in
who get their film developed.

Link:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/...rtnersite=espn

It talks about students who painted the side of a mountain as a sort of
rivalry with another neighboring school. They took photos of the event
turned in the film and are now dealing with a felony because of a clerk
seeing the photos and calling the police.
....
Thoughts?

1) I've read numerous reports of this type of problem, not just with photo
clerks.
2) Beating people up is a felony and far worse than reporting suspicious
photos.
3) Near here a clerk is a hero because she spotted photos of a kid with a
bunch of explosives and weapons. Some think she prevented a Columbine
style
attack on a school.
4) The police/DA are the real problem. The clerks have little or no
training.
5) People stupid enough to take pictures of themselves committing a crime
shouldn't be surprised when they get reported.

In this incident there are a number of issues. The prank sounds like the
kind of thing where the perpetrators halfway *wanted* to get caught, as a
publicity stunt, and the felony charge was probably excessive (it surprised
everybody).

The activity of painting the mountain *was* illegal and was correctly
interpreted by the photo clerk. There does not seem to have been any
misinterpretation of facts. This is unlike bathtub pictures of children,
etc. With pictures of naked children we have a totally different issue,
namely people being accused of dealing in child pornography when they are
doing nothing of the sort.

People who take pictures need to realize that, when they take them to be
processed, they're showing them to the people who do the processing. If you
need total privacy, develop the pictures yourself, or use a digital camera
and your own computer.

Finally: beating up photo clerks is a terrible idea. Aside from other
consequences, it would cause stores to stop offering photo finishing
altogether, and raise prices for all of us, all the time.

A lot of this is analogous to computer security incidents I used to handle.
People seem to think they can do an illegal thing in front of a big audience
of total strangers, and then *demand* that it be kept from the police, by
leaning on a few individuals (often sysadmins).

You do make a lot of good points.

I do want to point out: in THIS case, the painting of the mountain by the
Utah players: clearly this is not one of the things inspiring me to say "the
photo clerks needs to mind their own business." It's just that, for some
reason, it made me THINK of the times where they should--e.g., children in
the bathtub etc.

A few years ago I was taking care of a little boy, for instance--an
infant--and he would occasionally pee into the air when I was changing his
diaper. I thought it was hilarious, and told people I wanted to try & catch
him in the act with my camcorder because it would make a hilarious clip. The
parents didn't mind. I had a few friends, however, tell me I shouldn't do
such things because people would be suspicious and think child pornography
was going on.

THOSE are the types of people--someone who would overreact and cause such
trouble--those people frankly do need to be beaten up if possible if they do
such a thing. Well, something needs to be done if it's not beating up or
whatever--thing is, they need to be held accountable for how their extreme
nosiness and overreaction causes these types of problems, rather than being
allowed to be a rebelrouser (sp?) and get away with it. We need to fight
back with such things and frankly make such people hurt in whatever way we
can.

I do not advocate a sue-happy society, but I was reading in an old article
where it talked about how labs put clerks in this position but also how that
apparently a customer can sue if they've been falsely accused. That's
exactly what I would do--I'd sue the pants off of them 'til they couldn't
afford an M & M if they wanted one. If that's what it takes to get them to
lighten up and respect customer's privacy--obviously, extreme examples
should be exempted--then so be it.

LRH


1) I've read numerous reports of this type of problem, not just with
photo
clerks.
2) Beating people up is a felony and far worse than reporting suspicious
photos.
3) Near here a clerk is a hero because she spotted photos of a kid with
a
bunch of explosives and weapons. Some think she prevented a Columbine
style
attack on a school.
4) The police/DA are the real problem. The clerks have little or no
training.
5) People stupid enough to take pictures of themselves committing a
crime
shouldn't be surprised when they get reported.

In this incident there are a number of issues. The prank sounds like the
kind of thing where the perpetrators halfway *wanted* to get caught, as a
publicity stunt, and the felony charge was probably excessive (it
surprised
everybody).

The activity of painting the mountain *was* illegal and was correctly
interpreted by the photo clerk. There does not seem to have been any
misinterpretation of facts. This is unlike bathtub pictures of children,
etc. With pictures of naked children we have a totally different issue,
namely people being accused of dealing in child pornography when they are
doing nothing of the sort.

People who take pictures need to realize that, when they take them to be
processed, they're showing them to the people who do the processing. If
you
need total privacy, develop the pictures yourself, or use a digital camera
and your own computer.

Finally: beating up photo clerks is a terrible idea. Aside from other
consequences, it would cause stores to stop offering photo finishing
altogether, and raise prices for all of us, all the time.

A lot of this is analogous to computer security incidents I used to
handle.
People seem to think they can do an illegal thing in front of a big
audience
of total strangers, and then *demand* that it be kept from the police, by
leaning on a few individuals (often sysadmins).

"Larry R Harrison Jr" wrote in message
news:w5byc.11481$fZ1.772@fed1read03...
This link here got me started on something about clerks turning people in
who get their film developed.

Link:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/...rtnersite=espn

It talks about students who painted the side of a mountain as a sort of
rivalry with another neighboring school. They took photos of the event
turned in the film and are now dealing with a felony because of a clerk
seeing the photos and calling the police.

But the students did commit the crime, photographed it, and were stupid
enough to turn in the film for processing.


I started thinking about how now things are touchy with regards to, say,
persons photographing their kids in the tub and what not and getting in
trouble with police because of lab employees assuming the worst and
calling
the police.

Where would you draw the line? If you were in their shoes, and spotted
photos depicting rape or torture, what would you do?


With this case, if I were those Utah players, frankly I'd want to wait at
the lab for the same employee to get off work, then I'd beat the **** out
of
him (or her) for not minding their own business.

Which may also be illegal, don't you think? But what the hell. Might makes
right, I guess.


I was also thinking: if I, say, were photographing a friend's child in the
tub etc and turned the photos in, I think I'd make a point of seeing who
worked there--I'd look behind the counter etc--and if the police
questioned
me I'd have half a mind to beat the snot out of the lab employees for
making
a fuss.

And someone with half a mind is what that would take!


It occurs to me: these clerks need to be like the Swiss Bank people and
mind
their own business. People should be able to take photos of whatever in
the
jollies they feel like without worrying about such things. I mean, the
odds
that photos of someone's child of a tub being child pornography is nothing
compared to the far likelier scenario of it simply being typical parents
taking pictures of their typical kids, nothing.

Yes, it can go too far. But the morons who painted a mountain engaged in
vandalism, and wasn't that the original point of this thread?


Thing is: nothing ever gets written about people getting into trouble like
this having done nothing wrong--getting into trouble due to overzealous
photo clerks who don't mind their own business. It occurs to me something
needs to be done about this; their needs to be legal or vigelante type of
justice to make these photo clerks just do their job and mind their own
business--and stop causing trouble.

That's right! When you see a crime, look the other way. Things will sort
themselves out. OK, enough. Yes, overzealous clerks may go too far, but
what's the alternative? If they develop some film that shows some students
trashing a school, do they remain silent? If that's a no, then why is a
mountain different?


Thoughts?

Yes. If you're a destructive asshole, don't take pictures of your handiwork
and get them developed at a public place. If you are that stupid, don't
violently take it out on the person who turned you in. You're the one at
fault, not them. Do the crime, do the time.


LRH

"Bowzre" wrote in message
news:WOryc.29117$HG.3726@attbi_s53...


That's right! When you see a crime, look the other way. Things will sort
themselves out. OK, enough. Yes, overzealous clerks may go too far, but
what's the alternative? If they develop some film that shows some students
trashing a school, do they remain silent? If that's a no, then why is a
mountain different?


Hmm. I think China might be a suitable place for you--they seem to love the
idea of no one respecting anyone's privacy.

"Larry R Harrison Jr" wrote in message
news:lUwyc.19321$fZ1.10780@fed1read03...

"Bowzre" wrote in message
news:WOryc.29117$HG.3726@attbi_s53...


That's right! When you see a crime, look the other way. Things will sort
themselves out. OK, enough. Yes, overzealous clerks may go too far, but
what's the alternative? If they develop some film that shows some
students
trashing a school, do they remain silent? If that's a no, then why is a
mountain different?


Hmm. I think China might be a suitable place for you--they seem to love
the
idea of no one respecting anyone's privacy.

I have the utmost respect for one's privacy. And for the law, which,
apparently, you do not. Where would you draw the line? How bad a crime do
you have to witness in order to make you report it?

I liked that you snipped most of my reply. Obviously, you cannot justify
most of what you said in the original post.

"Bowzre" wrote in message news:Z5Jyc.89433$Ly.9172@attbi_s01...
How bad a crime do
you have to witness in order to make you report it?

Murder, rape, theft, sexual assault of a minor by an adult.

I would not consider photos of a kid in a bathtub by an average Joe
suspicious, and I completely support any who's a victim of this who
responds by suing for false accuastion.

I also think that the way it is where if a child at school says "daddy
hits me when I'm bad" it merits automatic reporting to CPS. That's
totally outragoues, as 98% of the time that's merely a situation where
you have a parent that spanks--not beats, etc--and they don't deserve
to have CPS sticking their nose into their business. Now yeah, if the
child was always showing up bruised and you could see evidence the
mother was bruised, then sure--report it. But report every instance
where a child is simply echoing how they are spanked? Please.

In short--too much big government, and even if it's the law that such
things would be reported--if I were in that position, I would NOT
report it. I would stubbornly refuse to. (Again, I WOULD in the
example where the kid's always bruised and the mom is too.) I will NOT
respect any law of any country that is that oppressive. When the law
doesn't respect me then it doesn't deserve my respect.

And that's hardly unique to me. Consider how many people speed. Why do
they? Becuase they know how ridiculous the speed limits are, they know
the whole system has little to do with safety and a lot to do with
gouging people out of their money under the pretense of safety. Heck
one study I read about years ago stated that even staff members of the
NHTSA--yes, the NHTSA--agreed that most speed limits were like 10 mph
too slow.

So yeah--when the law is that ridiculous, I will NOT respect it. And
if the law says I have to report every single person in a photo lab
who takes photos of their kids in the tub--then yeah I'm going to
break the law and refuse to tell on them. Again--if the law doesn't
respect me (or its citizens) then I'm not going to respect it--because
at that point it doesn't deserve my respect.

LRH

"Larry R Harrison Jr" wrote in message
om...

So yeah--when the law is that ridiculous, I will NOT respect it. And
if the law says I have to report every single person in a photo lab
who takes photos of their kids in the tub--then yeah I'm going to
break the law and refuse to tell on them.

As far as I know there is no such law.

And if there were, you should be agitating to get it changed, not demanding
that clerks break the law.

I think every photofinisher needs a *policy* about what to do when they
encounter pictures that may be of illegal activity. The individual clerk
should not have to make the decision -- he should always consult management.
This shifts liability from him to the company, which is as it should be.