Hardware Worship Religion

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:53:52 -0000, "Alan Smithee"
wrote in :

"John Navas" wrote in message
.. .

The part I can't understand though (and the part I think you were
referring
to) is why some people get so defensive over certain brands. Mind you, I
don't think there are many hardcore fanboys in here, just one hardcore P&S
fan.

Thus displaying your own bias.

On the contrary.

Therein lies the problem.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:53:52 -0000, Alan Smithee wrote:

The part I can't understand though (and the part I think you were
referring
to) is why some people get so defensive over certain brands. Mind you, I
don't think there are many hardcore fanboys in here, just one hardcore P&S
fan.

Thus displaying your own bias.

On the contrary.

John (a moderately hardcore P&S camera user, IIRC) probably
thought you were referring to a real person. I assume that your
target was instead the sock puppet anti-DSLR troll, that's posted
mostly drivel under hundreds of different names by now. He may also
be overly sensitive to accusations of brand bias, as seen in some of
his recent comments aggressively defending MS and Norton products.

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:32:36 -0500, ASAAR wrote in
:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:53:52 -0000, Alan Smithee wrote:

The part I can't understand though (and the part I think you were
referring
to) is why some people get so defensive over certain brands. Mind you, I
don't think there are many hardcore fanboys in here, just one hardcore P&S
fan.

Thus displaying your own bias.

On the contrary.

John (a moderately hardcore P&S camera user, IIRC) probably
thought you were referring to a real person. I assume that your
target was instead the sock puppet anti-DSLR troll, that's posted
mostly drivel under hundreds of different names by now. He may also
be overly sensitive to accusations of brand bias, as seen in some of
his recent comments aggressively defending MS and Norton products.

The display of bias is in accusing just the "P&S" side of the debate
(using the term loosely) of being hardcore, as well as the use of the
term itself. There is (too much) advocacy and bashing on both sides.
It would be nice to have a truce, but it ain't gonna happen here.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:43:46 -0800, John Navas wrote:

John (a moderately hardcore P&S camera user, IIRC) probably
thought you were referring to a real person. I assume that your
target was instead the sock puppet anti-DSLR troll, that's posted
mostly drivel under hundreds of different names by now. He may also
be overly sensitive to accusations of brand bias, as seen in some of
his recent comments aggressively defending MS and Norton products.

The display of bias is in accusing just the "P&S" side of the debate
(using the term loosely) of being hardcore, as well as the use of the
term itself. There is (too much) advocacy and bashing on both sides.
It would be nice to have a truce, but it ain't gonna happen here.

If (as I suspect) Alan was referring to the troll, who is nothing
if not hardcore, then your "Thus displaying your own bias." reply
was unfortunate and wrong. But I agree that there's bias here, and
more often than not it's pro-DSLR / anti-P&S, and this group is
further divided into brand chauvinist fanatics, as opposed to the
larger numbers that are just normal fans of their own brands and
accept that cameras from other manufacturers are just as worthy for
most purposes. The fanatics can also be more finely divided, and
one such subgroup would be the Canon fanatics that greatly enjoy
ridiculing Nikon's products. I'm sure that they don't believe much
of what they say, and the hyperbolic disparagement is intentional,
done more to tease the owners of the attacked products, akin to
playing "the dozens". In my schooldays (whether in class or in the
schoolyard) these insult competitions were known as ranking or
sounding. If one insult resulted in a funnier, more insulting
reply, someone listening in the background would often shout "Ooh,
sound on the rebound!" It's not always lighthearted sport.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dozens

"John Navas" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:32:36 -0500, ASAAR wrote in

The part I can't understand though (and the part I think you were
referring
to) is why some people get so defensive over certain brands. Mind you,
I
don't think there are many hardcore fanboys in here, just one hardcore
P&S
fan.

Thus displaying your own bias.

On the contrary.

John (a moderately hardcore P&S camera user, IIRC) probably
thought you were referring to a real person. I assume that your
target was instead the sock puppet anti-DSLR troll, that's posted
mostly drivel under hundreds of different names by now. He may also
be overly sensitive to accusations of brand bias, as seen in some of
his recent comments aggressively defending MS and Norton products.

The display of bias is in accusing just the "P&S" side of the debate
(using the term loosely) of being hardcore, as well as the use of the
term itself. There is (too much) advocacy and bashing on both sides.
It would be nice to have a truce, but it ain't gonna happen here.

What do you mean both sides? Most people have P&S's as well as their other
camera's. I have three. Hell, I even have a camera phone too.

In article , John Navas
wrote:

Yep. There are some people here who should be out taking pictures
instead of spending so much time here attacking those that are.

Or in your case, you might want to actually learn how to create decent
images rather than continue producing the mediocre crap you've done for
so long.

In article ,
wrote:

Time and time again I see post after post of someone arguing
that this or that camera - lens etc. is so much better than all the
others because of some specific technical difference.

That is all well and good, but how many consider that the
difference is usually meaningless to most users. Further they seldom
bother checking to see if there is any meaningful differences in real
world results. Meaningful means a difference that would be noticed in
the final intended use.

It seems to me it is only the final product that is important.

Well, some are better or worse than others. The camera in my cell
phone, for example, will just about beat the performance of any digital
camera that Sigma has ever made.

"Mr. Strat" wrote in message
...

.............The camera in my cell
phone, for example, will just about beat the performance of any digital
camera that Sigma has ever made.

How true - How true........ And its mostly due to the plastic lens being
better than Sigma glass.

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:35:23 -0800, John Navas
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:31:04 GMT, "David J Taylor"
wrote in
:

wrote:
Time and time again I see post after post of someone arguing
that this or that camera - lens etc. is so much better than all the
others because of some specific technical difference.

That is all well and good, but how many consider that the
difference is usually meaningless to most users. Further they seldom
bother checking to see if there is any meaningful differences in real
world results. Meaningful means a difference that would be noticed in
the final intended use.

It seems to me it is only the final product that is important.

So no-one is allowed to take a technical interest to increase their
understanding and discuss it here? Look at the threads where I've
commented about the relevancy or otherwise if viewing images at 1:1 on the
screen.

You obviously wouldn't approve of people whose interest in vintage cards,
because the cars aren't used for journeys!

Room for both, don't you think?

The great majority of the hardware postings here are of little or no
real value, just lobbing of claims back and forth by various advocacy
groups, much like adolescents arguing on a playground.


You mean like what you have been doing, John?

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:39:07 -0500, ASAAR wrote:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:43:46 -0800, John Navas wrote:

John (a moderately hardcore P&S camera user, IIRC) probably
thought you were referring to a real person. I assume that your
target was instead the sock puppet anti-DSLR troll, that's posted
mostly drivel under hundreds of different names by now. He may also
be overly sensitive to accusations of brand bias, as seen in some of
his recent comments aggressively defending MS and Norton products.

The display of bias is in accusing just the "P&S" side of the debate
(using the term loosely) of being hardcore, as well as the use of the
term itself. There is (too much) advocacy and bashing on both sides.
It would be nice to have a truce, but it ain't gonna happen here.

If (as I suspect) Alan was referring to the troll, who is nothing
if not hardcore, then your "Thus displaying your own bias." reply
was unfortunate and wrong. But I agree that there's bias here, and
more often than not it's pro-DSLR / anti-P&S, and this group is
further divided into brand chauvinist fanatics, as opposed to the
larger numbers that are just normal fans of their own brands and
accept that cameras from other manufacturers are just as worthy for
most purposes. The fanatics can also be more finely divided, and
one such subgroup would be the Canon fanatics that greatly enjoy
ridiculing Nikon's products. I'm sure that they don't believe much
of what they say, and the hyperbolic disparagement is intentional,
done more to tease the owners of the attacked products, akin to
playing "the dozens". In my schooldays (whether in class or in the
schoolyard) these insult competitions were known as ranking or
sounding. If one insult resulted in a funnier, more insulting
reply, someone listening in the background would often shout "Ooh,
sound on the rebound!" It's not always lighthearted sport.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dozens

There has certainly been some camera bashing going on, but not nearly
as much as some people believe.

From where I sit, I don't ridicule anyone for their choice of camera.

What I find amazing, though, is how some will dig themselves into
defensive positions in the face of objective evidence and pick at
gnats over the words people use to refer to certain types of
cameras... and then accuse others of bias for simply acknowledging
the facts.

Here are the facts, apart from any bias or brand favoritism:

1. P&S / superzoom / compact / whatever-the-proper-term-is cameras
are best if you want an all-in-one solution that you can carry
anywhere with you. Depending on the brand and model, you can get
reasonably good quality if it is adequate for what your needs are.

2. Dslr cameras, by virtue of the larger sensors and lower pixel
density, will outperform smaller cameras in terms of image quality.
This has been demonstrated many times over by objective testing.
Subjectively, images from larger sensors will generally appear more
"photographic" and less "digital."

Both types of their cameras have their place. IMO it is simply
foolish to say that one is "better" than the other, just as it is
equally foolish to try to deny the above basic facts.

If you want the best image quality, go with a dslr. If you want the
most stealth and portability, go with the p&s. Period. Don't even
waste time trying to justify how one camera type is as good as or
better than the other type when they are both designed for different
purposes.