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New Freestyle Premium film ID?



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 10th 08, 02:21 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.equipment.film+labs
[email protected]
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Posts: 2
Default New Freestyle Premium film ID?

Has anyone tried this yet? There has been conjecture that it is
Tri-X, re-spooled by Freestyle. I'm about due for some freezer
filling on a group bulk order and was hoping to confirm the
information.
  #3  
Old August 10th 08, 05:12 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.equipment.film+labs
Nicholas O. Lindan
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Posts: 1,227
Default New Freestyle Premium film ID?

"John" wrote

Why would Kodak sell its mainstream B&W film to be rebranded?


See Samueslon _Economics_, AKA ECON 101.

Kodak is doing what Ilford stupidly stopped doing - OEM'ing
film. When Ilford stopped selling via Freestyle the flood gates
of off-brand East European films opened and Ilford lost big
time.

The maximum profit is made when the last roll manufactured is
sold at break-even (Freestyle) and the first roll manufactured
is sold at the highest price possible (Keeble & Suchat).

The manufacturing unit cost falls with manufacturing volume, so
gaining market share not only increases total sales it also increases
the profit margin on Yuppie sales.

The problem is getting people to buy the high-priced spread. So
you advertise the branded and kick the marginal roll out the back
door clothed in rags, letting the customer wonder "Is it, or isn't it?".

Is it off-spec or something?

It won't be defective. I doubt if it is cream-of-the-run.

Is Kodak dumping Tri-X?

Only if they are selling _below_ manufacturing cost. In any case,
dumping to gain market share isn't illegal in your home market -
who, after all, pays congress to pass anti-dumping laws in the
first place?

If it is Kodak emulsion, then it is the smartest move I have
seen Kodak make in a quite a while. And Freestyle _isn't_ dumb,
either.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index2.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com


  #4  
Old August 10th 08, 09:39 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.equipment.film+labs
Richard Knoppow
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Posts: 751
Default New Freestyle Premium film ID?


wrote in message
...
Has anyone tried this yet? There has been conjecture that
it is
Tri-X, re-spooled by Freestyle. I'm about due for some
freezer
filling on a group bulk order and was hoping to confirm
the
information.


I can't figure out which film this is, can you post a
more definite description. Freestyle does have a feature
sale on Arista II 35mm film but its certainly not Kodak
beause its made in Germany. The only Arista Premium film I
found on their on-line catalogue is ISO-100. What size is
this, I searched only 35mm film.
Kodak policy forever has been not to sell products for
rebranding although they have made custom emulsions for some
manufacturers including Polaroid and the late, lamented
Defender but have not sold in bulk as have AGFA, Ilford and
some others.
If the data sheet is available it will give you a
pretty definite answer.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA



  #5  
Old August 10th 08, 09:46 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.equipment.film+labs
Richard Knoppow
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Posts: 751
Default New Freestyle Premium film ID?


"Nicholas O. Lindan" wrote in message
m...
"John" wrote

Why would Kodak sell its mainstream B&W film to be
rebranded?


See Samueslon _Economics_, AKA ECON 101.

Kodak is doing what Ilford stupidly stopped doing -
OEM'ing
film. When Ilford stopped selling via Freestyle the flood
gates
of off-brand East European films opened and Ilford lost
big
time.

The maximum profit is made when the last roll manufactured
is
sold at break-even (Freestyle) and the first roll
manufactured
is sold at the highest price possible (Keeble & Suchat).

The manufacturing unit cost falls with manufacturing
volume, so
gaining market share not only increases total sales it
also increases
the profit margin on Yuppie sales.

The problem is getting people to buy the high-priced
spread. So
you advertise the branded and kick the marginal roll out
the back
door clothed in rags, letting the customer wonder "Is it,
or isn't it?".

Is it off-spec or something?

It won't be defective. I doubt if it is cream-of-the-run.

Is Kodak dumping Tri-X?

Only if they are selling _below_ manufacturing cost. In
any case,
dumping to gain market share isn't illegal in your home
market -
who, after all, pays congress to pass anti-dumping laws in
the
first place?

If it is Kodak emulsion, then it is the smartest move I
have
seen Kodak make in a quite a while. And Freestyle _isn't_
dumb,
either.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index2.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com

If Kodak is doing this is would be breaking a company
policy that has been in effect since the founding of the
company.
While manufacturing cost goes down with volume for many
products there is usually a plateau where the cost remains
steady with increasing volume. I think the main reason
Ilford and AGFA sold bulk materials for custom branding was
that it gave them a garanteed market for a perishable
product. Once the film or paper was delivered to the
rebranding customer it became their property and their
worry. There may also be some advantages in reduction of
marketing and advertising costs but I think these are
minimal. I suspect the sale of seconds are more myth than
real: no one is going to profit by selling a defective
product.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA




  #6  
Old August 10th 08, 11:11 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.equipment.film+labs
Nicholas O. Lindan
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Posts: 1,227
Default New Freestyle Premium film ID?

"Richard Knoppow" wrote

If Kodak is doing this is would be breaking a company policy that has been
in effect since the founding of the company.


Well, Kodak has been doing a lot of that: both too much of
it and not enough.

While manufacturing cost goes down with volume for many products there is
usually a plateau where the cost remains steady with increasing volume.


Not really, it's an exponential curve, in most processes if
you double the volume then costs drop 10% to 20%, after a
while, as you say, it is functionally flat because you just
can find market for twice the product.

Making a web process product like film, though, has a terrific
volume/cost fall-off. Batch preparation cost is everything,
material cost is minimal. I am involved in in-vivo clinical
test strip equipment and the economics are such the machine
is run as infrequently as possible and the production run is
as big as possible. The amount produced doesn't have a lot
of impact on the cost of the run: 1 test strip, 10,000,000
test strips or 100,000,000 test strips: the runs all cost
about the same.

The other way to look at it is that there isn't enough market
to use up the machine capacity. And that is certainly Kodak's
current dilemma.

Since Kodak is over capacity in manufacturing then selling
product at the marginal dollar, and pride be damned, is the
right way to go.

There may also be some advantages in reduction of marketing and
advertising costs but I think these are minimal.


Whoo boy, Richard, try selling something and see where
your costs go...

I suspect the sale of seconds are more myth than real: no one is going to
profit by selling a defective product.


Freestyle film isn't defective. Except for that batch
of 90's Ilford with the pin-holes. And it's hard to tell
if Efke is defective or that's just the way it is supposed
to be.

But, at least on the East Coast, selling seconds is
a big and profitable business. Tour busses going
out to huge "Outlet Malls" located in the middle of
nowhere. Just about all the merchandise on offer is
clothing & accessories that were idiotically over
priced to begin with. The customers are 'traditionally
built' ladies wearing purple stretch pants, big hats
and too much make-up.

The Snap-On tool company's outlet store used to be
a huge pit in the back 40: anything that didn't pass
muster was promptly 'destroyed'. I wonder if the EPA
has started test bores to measure the soil's
heavy metal content.

Who knows what the stuff is. Just wait, and in a
month it will be pretty obvious. So far all indications
are that it is Tri-X or something so much like it
that no one can find much difference between the two.

Scenario: Too keep the price at $4/roll, the machine
needs to make 10,000,000 rolls per run. You can
only sell 5,000,000 by the expiry date. Two solutions:
trash 5,000,000 rolls or sell the extra 5,000,000
at the marginal price and drive Efke, Foma and anyone
else in the market into bankruptcy. Doesn't take a
Harvard MBA. A bit beyond the comprehension of LSE,
though.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index2.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com


  #7  
Old August 11th 08, 01:12 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.equipment.film+labs
John[_16_]
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Posts: 62
Default New Freestyle Premium film ID?

A nregurgitation of how economics works is not an explanation of what
might actually be happening now.
  #8  
Old August 11th 08, 06:44 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.equipment.film+labs
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
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Posts: 450
Default New Freestyle Premium film ID?

Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
Scenario: Too keep the price at $4/roll, the machine
needs to make 10,000,000 rolls per run. You can
only sell 5,000,000 by the expiry date. Two solutions:
trash 5,000,000 rolls or sell the extra 5,000,000
at the marginal price and drive Efke, Foma and anyone
else in the market into bankruptcy. Doesn't take a
Harvard MBA. A bit beyond the comprehension of LSE,
though.


One thing that most people don't understand is that the expiration
date is not a hard and fast thing. That's why food is often marked
"best if used by", not "destroy without opening".

Color film shifts with age, high speed film is fogged by cosmic rays,
but lower speed black and white film ages gracefully. If Kodak for
example had a large roll of uncut Tri-X in it's cave that reached it's
expiration date, there would be nothing wrong with cutting it into
35mm rolls and selling it to someone else. Or selling it uncut.

As long as they did not dilute their brand name, it's "cheap money".

In that case it would have to be sold as "similar to the yellow box
400 speed film" and have a different imprint. As long as they did not
say it was Tri-X, there would be nothing wrong with it.

For example, if I were a billionare (which there is little chance
of that ever happening), I would buy a production run of Panatomic-X.
Kodak would gladly make it for me, and I'm sure I could sell hundreds
of rolls of it. Too bad I'd have to sell a lot more to break even.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM
  #9  
Old August 11th 08, 02:24 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.equipment.film+labs
Nicholas O. Lindan
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Posts: 1,227
Default New Freestyle Premium film ID?

"John"

A regurgitation of how economics works is not an explanation of what might
actually be happening now.


If it isn't economics, what is it? Well, OK - it can be pride,
envy, greed, sloth and anger, with a spice topping of gluttony
and lust. Oops, can't forget vanity and stupidity: really big
motivators of human behavior.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index2.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com


  #10  
Old August 11th 08, 08:09 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.equipment.film+labs
John[_16_]
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Posts: 62
Default New Freestyle Premium film ID?

Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
"John"

A regurgitation of how economics works is not an explanation of what might
actually be happening now.


If it isn't economics, what is it? Well, OK - it can be pride,
envy, greed, sloth and anger, with a spice topping of gluttony
and lust. Oops, can't forget vanity and stupidity: really big
motivators of human behavior.


I'll take two from column A, please.

One thing that nudged me to question a pure economic motive comes from
having my butt kicked for having suggested that Kodak's move to T-Grain
film was to save money. People jumped out of the woodwork screaming that
Kodak wasn't trying to save money, but just making the film better. I
HATE TGrain film. That one comes from column B.

 




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