Does anyone make a small-sized full frame DSLR?

John A. wrote:
On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 05:07:01 -0500, Handy Andy wrote:
...
If it is a simple matt-like finish (not an anti-reflective coating) remove
all of it using the same solvent that ruined it. Then get some "matt"
art-fixative spray. Mask off the housing. With careful and very light
application from a distance you may be able to restore the surface
somewhat. If applied lightly and you goof it up you can remove it again
with some alcohol and elbow-grease and try again. I used to do this on
early monitors that had no type of coating whatsoever. The display would
lose a bit of sharpness and contrast but that was better than not being
able to see the screen at all in a day-lit room with a window behind me.

I had a similar situation, but moving the desk to a better position in
the room worked for me.

It was a tinted anti-reflective coating. I actually managed to remove
it all using the same solvent (spray "Pledge" furniture polish), and
recalibrated the monitor - but the glossy surface was horrible, and I
had the nagging doubt that despite recalibration (using a colorimeter)
something must be wrong - even though it seemed okay. I actually had
some matt fixative spray here, but didn't try it. I was keeping my eye
on auction sites for another used pro-quality CRT (I bought the 21" for
about $100 a few years ago) but there weren't any coming up in my local
area, and in the meantime Dell released an IPS panel 22" LCD (2209WA)
for about US$300. I took a punt on this (despite reservations about
Dell), and am very happy with it.

Alan Browne wrote:

FF will be found in more mid range cameras eventually. Sony putting it
in the $2K a850 is just the latest push that way.

But isn't the a850 already a "mid-range" camera anyway? I didn't think
my 5d (and 5DII I've used) were anything other than "mid-range".

On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 05:07:01 -0500, Handy Andy wrote:

On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 17:40:19 +1200, Me wrote:

John A. wrote:
On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 16:29:13 +1200, Me wrote:

John A. wrote:
On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 09:24:00 +1200, Me wrote:

R. Mark Clayton wrote:

Well they used to say that about LCD displays and a few years ago they cost
thousands. Recently I bought a small full HD screen for under 200*.

There was a cartel with Samsung, LG/Philips, Chi Mei, fixing prices.
They got busted - that's why LCD screen prices - especially large TV
panels - fell so sharply, perhaps aided a bit by the recession.
Forget the brand name of the monitor/TV, almost all will have panels
made by one of the above three makers.
Even if all parts were off-the-shelf, there's the final assembly QC
factor to differentiate between brands.

Yes - my "forget brand name" comment was about quality of the panel
itself, not associated components and design.
OTOH it wouldn't surprise me to see leading names in computer graphic
monitors suffer. LG is now making high end graphic monitors (IPS,
RGB-LED backlit, built-in calibration, 16 bit LUTs etc).

I'm half-hoping my CRT will hold out until Canon or a licensee can get
an affordable SED display on the store shelves.

My 21" CRT (Diamondtron) died - well it still worked, but my wife
managed to speckle the screen with some household cleaner which
dissolved the anti-glare coating.

Are you talking about a dark-blue, almost purplish, anti-reflective
coating? If it really is destroyed then there's not much you can do as
that's applied with thin-film deposition methods in a vacuum. Though some
companies do supply plastic films sold as small anti-reflection protectors
for pocket-electronics' and cameras' LCD displays. The same anti-reflective
coating applied to them. You might contact their suppliers to find out if
you can purchase the material in larger sizes. If the screen is flat enough
a layer of that could be applied after removing the old coating.

Also, don't automatically assume that that kind of anti-reflection layer is
destroyed. They're a lot more tough than most people think. Most household
solvents won't harm them. This type of anti-reflection coatings'
effectiveness (effectiveness only) is destroyed by the slightest bit of oil
or other contaminants on the surface. What may look like spots or lost
coating might just be a layer of waxes, oils, or other difficult to remove
chemical deposits left behind after evaporation. Use some good lens-cleaner
or *oil-free* isopropyl alcohol on a micro-fiber cloth and see if that's
all it is.

If it is a simple matt-like finish (not an anti-reflective coating) remove
all of it using the same solvent that ruined it. Then get some "matt"
art-fixative spray. Mask off the housing. With careful and very light
application from a distance you may be able to restore the surface
somewhat. If applied lightly and you goof it up you can remove it again
with some alcohol and elbow-grease and try again. I used to do this on
early monitors that had no type of coating whatsoever. The display would
lose a bit of sharpness and contrast but that was better than not being
able to see the screen at all in a day-lit room with a window behind me.

I would be v e r y careful with the solvents. The top layer on
your screen will be synthetic of some kind which may be vulnerable to
solvent attack. Start with water. Do your trials with a cotton bud.



Eric Stevens

On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 08:50:34 +1200, Me wrote:

John A. wrote:
On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 05:07:01 -0500, Handy Andy wrote:
...
If it is a simple matt-like finish (not an anti-reflective coating) remove
all of it using the same solvent that ruined it. Then get some "matt"
art-fixative spray. Mask off the housing. With careful and very light
application from a distance you may be able to restore the surface
somewhat. If applied lightly and you goof it up you can remove it again
with some alcohol and elbow-grease and try again. I used to do this on
early monitors that had no type of coating whatsoever. The display would
lose a bit of sharpness and contrast but that was better than not being
able to see the screen at all in a day-lit room with a window behind me.

I had a similar situation, but moving the desk to a better position in
the room worked for me.

It was a tinted anti-reflective coating. I actually managed to remove
it all using the same solvent (spray "Pledge" furniture polish), and
recalibrated the monitor - but the glossy surface was horrible, and I
had the nagging doubt that despite recalibration (using a colorimeter)
something must be wrong - even though it seemed okay. I actually had
some matt fixative spray here, but didn't try it. I was keeping my eye
on auction sites for another used pro-quality CRT (I bought the 21" for
about $100 a few years ago) but there weren't any coming up in my local
area, and in the meantime Dell released an IPS panel 22" LCD (2209WA)
for about US$300. I took a punt on this (despite reservations about
Dell), and am very happy with it.

You didn't remove the coating. You only covered it up by making the rest of
the anti-reflective coating match the previous now-non-functioning spots.
Pledge furniture polish is wax and oils. I suspected that's what was
causing the problem in the first place when you blamed your wife (men don't
dust). This is why I thought "the cure" worth mentioning, because something
like Pledge would be exactly the thing to prevent that coating from working
properly (not destroy it) just as I described. It coating would appear to
disappear as you applied more oils and wax to the whole surface. You can
restore it to like new with enough cleaning with alcohol. Won't be easy.
You have to remove the wax and oils down through to the very last
molecule-depth layer of those waxes and oils before the anti-reflective
coating becomes functional again by it having contact with nothing but air.
Lots of change-outs of soft rags and alcohol. You should study-up on how
these anti-reflective coatings work.

Short explanation in simplest of terms: By laying down various layers of
compounds in molecule-thin layers, they are trying to match the
refractive-index of air with the topmost layer, while the bottom-most layer
of this multi-layer coating matches the refractive-index of glass. To make
a smooth transition in refractive-indices from air to glass. Put even a
molecule-deep layer on the top (air-most surface) that is not as close to
the refractive-index of air (as the original layer is) and it will appear
as if the whole anti-reflective layer(s) beneath that contaminant is not
working or not even there. That top layer of contaminant is what is
touching the air, not the coating beneath it, and it no longer matches the
refractive-index of air.

Well, I exaggerate a bit. A few molecules-depth of contaminant might be
allowed here and there (depending on what contaminant), but I use this to
stress just how clean those anti-reflective layers must be to function as
fully intended and why they must be designed that way to work as they do.

It sounds as if you no longer have this monitor (or even want to use it
anymore if you do), but I thought this worth posting for others that might
be in similar shoes. Some CRT monitors are the best ever for photo editing
and worth preserving if still functioning properly otherwise.

If nothing else, let your wife off the hook. She didn't destroy it. A
little reading up on these coatings on your part could have found the
simple solution and it wouldn't have been any loss at all at the time. Just
a slight inconvenience and a chance to clean that screen properly anyway.
Which it probably needed just from normal air-borne oils from frying foods
in the kitchen. Those that are wafting around your house and condensing on
the screen over time.

(Printing up this posting and handing it to your wife might be a handy and
long-due apology starter for you.)

On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 10:43:44 +1200, Eric Stevens
wrote:

I would be v e r y careful with the solvents. The top layer on
your screen will be synthetic of some kind which may be vulnerable to
solvent attack. Start with water. Do your trials with a cotton bud.

He's talking about a CRT, not an LCD which is crafted from easy to mar
plastics. The front of a CRT is glass. If having an anti-reflective layer
then it is coated with compounds nearly as hard as that glass (some layers
of that coating even harder than the glass beneath it). Even an LCD monitor
with the soft-plastic surface handles simple isopropyl well. I use it all
the time on mine. I wouldn't use naphtha, acetone, methyl ethyl ketone, nor
any other easily available solvents, but simple isopropyl is fairly
harmless to most things plastic.

Handy Andy wrote:
On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 08:50:34 +1200, Me wrote:

John A. wrote:
On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 05:07:01 -0500, Handy Andy wrote:
...
If it is a simple matt-like finish (not an anti-reflective coating) remove
all of it using the same solvent that ruined it. Then get some "matt"
art-fixative spray. Mask off the housing. With careful and very light
application from a distance you may be able to restore the surface
somewhat. If applied lightly and you goof it up you can remove it again
with some alcohol and elbow-grease and try again. I used to do this on
early monitors that had no type of coating whatsoever. The display would
lose a bit of sharpness and contrast but that was better than not being
able to see the screen at all in a day-lit room with a window behind me.
I had a similar situation, but moving the desk to a better position in
the room worked for me.

It was a tinted anti-reflective coating. I actually managed to remove
it all using the same solvent (spray "Pledge" furniture polish), and
recalibrated the monitor - but the glossy surface was horrible, and I
had the nagging doubt that despite recalibration (using a colorimeter)
something must be wrong - even though it seemed okay. I actually had
some matt fixative spray here, but didn't try it. I was keeping my eye
on auction sites for another used pro-quality CRT (I bought the 21" for
about $100 a few years ago) but there weren't any coming up in my local
area, and in the meantime Dell released an IPS panel 22" LCD (2209WA)
for about US$300. I took a punt on this (despite reservations about
Dell), and am very happy with it.

You didn't remove the coating. You only covered it up by making the rest of
the anti-reflective coating match the previous now-non-functioning spots.

No - believe me on this. Perhaps different coating/systems were used by
different makers. This was a Diamondtron (aperture grill pro graphics
CRT) Mitsubishi equivalent to high end Sony Trinitron CRTs.
The screen had a dark coloured anti-reflective coating. The coating was
"glossy" as opposed to satin matte (like the LCD I use now), but it was
quite non-reflective, like a multicoated lens filter. Applying more
spray "pledge" - which caused the damage in the first place - and the
black coating rubbed off, transferring on to a rag. What's in "Pledge"?
My guess possibly terpenes - like D-limonene - it smells like citrus.

On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 12:09:06 +1200, Me wrote:


No - believe me on this. Perhaps different coating/systems were used by
different makers. This was a Diamondtron (aperture grill pro graphics
CRT) Mitsubishi equivalent to high end Sony Trinitron CRTs.
The screen had a dark coloured anti-reflective coating. The coating was
"glossy" as opposed to satin matte (like the LCD I use now), but it was
quite non-reflective, like a multicoated lens filter.

Yes, I do believe you on this. This is *exactly* like that. Grab an unused
multi-coated filter that you feel safe experimenting with. One that might
have some good scratches in it that you don't use anymore. Polish it with
Pledge. (surprisingly, many of the small scratches will disappear because
the waxes fill them in) As you apply the Pledge watch the coating magically
"disappear". Scary. Now clean it very thoroughly with alcohol. Watch the
coating magically come back! Oooo. Pretty good magic trick, wasn't it?

Applying more
spray "pledge" - which caused the damage in the first place - and the
black coating rubbed off, transferring on to a rag. What's in "Pledge"?
My guess possibly terpenes - like D-limonene - it smells like citrus.

What transferred to your rag was the normal dirt from air-borne oils on the
monitor screen, now replaced with clean waxes and oils from the polish.
You'd be surprised how much will condense on a cold glass monitor screen
from the air around you, especially if you live in a city with all the
diesel and other gas and hydrocarbon fumes permeating the air around you.

Doesn't matter what "*enes" might have been in the Pledge. These kind of
anti-reflective coatings are designed to even withstand fairly long-term
contact with acids from fingerprints. They're that hard and durable. We're
not talking about plastic layers. They're as hard as the quartz and other
compounds they are designed upon. I bet you even had a few good
finger-prints on your monitor screen too and you thought those were ruined
spots where the coating got worn off. Like newbies think their filters are
destroyed when they get a greasy fingerprint or smudge of sap on it and it
won't easily come off using normal methods. They must be pristinely cleaned
to remove the slightest bit of oil to fully restore the coating's function.
This is why micro-fiber clothes became so popular so quickly. They can
wick-up those stubborn oils (not waxes) where normal soap and water combos
might not help.

If you try to declare again that this isn't what happened I'll just chalk
this up to a desperate husband trying to cover his tracks on why he
insisted he needed a new monitor with all the expenses involved.

Handy Andy wrote:

What transferred to your rag was the normal dirt from air-borne oils on the
monitor screen, now replaced with clean waxes and oils from the polish.
No - it certainly wasn't. It /was/ the screen coating.

Me wrote:
Handy Andy wrote:

What transferred to your rag was the normal dirt from air-borne oils on the
monitor screen, now replaced with clean waxes and oils from the polish.

No - it certainly wasn't. It /was/ the screen coating.

I've been sitting in front of computer monitors ever since they were
first invented. I've worked for companies that made and sold
them. I've fitted good expensive high quality anti-reflection screens
to those which didn't have good ones. I've been cleaning them with
everything from spit and newspaper to the cloths and cleaning solution
supplied by the manufacturer. And the same goes for anti-reflection
coatings on camera lenses and spectacle lenses. I've been wearing
anti-reflective coated spectacles since the day they were invented.

I've never once come across an antireflective coating that could be
removed with any kind of furniture polish. But I've come across
countless screens whose antireflection *properties* had been removed
by well meaning cleaners going over screens as well as desks with
furniture polish. What happened and how to recover from it has been
well described by Handy Andy, as I've verified countless times by
having to do it.

--
Chris Malcolm

Me wrote:
Alan Browne wrote:

FF will be found in more mid range cameras eventually. Sony putting
it in the $2K a850 is just the latest push that way.

But isn't the a850 already a "mid-range" camera anyway? I didn't think
my 5d (and 5DII I've used) were anything other than "mid-range".

"more" is more than any number.n