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Windows 10 update wipes out files and photos



 
 
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  #181  
Old October 18th 18, 06:09 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Neil[_9_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 521
Default Windows 10 update wipes out files and photos

On 10/18/2018 11:55 AM, Whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 18 October 2018 16:05:58 UTC+1, Neil wrote:
On 10/18/2018 5:03 AM, Whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 October 2018 17:44:12 UTC+1, Neil wrote:
On 10/16/2018 9:07 PM, Ken Hart wrote:
On 10/16/2018 12:17 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , Neil
wrote:

Word under DOS had both mouse control and WYSIWYG, as did all
apps that
needed it, such as drawing, painting, etc. FWIW, Windows 1, 2, & 3.x
were merely DOS shells, and there were better shells available
prior to
them.

I don't remmeber WYSIWYG being any good under DOS. It could have been
that at the time all we had was orange/black or green/black 80
coloumn
monitors.

I think it depends on one's systems.

I don;t think so DOS was NEVER WYSIWYG.

Under DOS/Windows, WYSYIWYG is determined by the app, not the OS. Not
all apps need to be able to preview font sizes and so forth (or even be
able to print, for that matter).

except that dos apps are limited by what dos can do, or in this case,
not do.

I had NTSC color monitors under DOS
and I could see the layout, word spacing, fonts, etc. I was going
to get
prior to printing the document. That, to me, *is* WYSIWYG.

Not at the time it wasn't couldÂ* you see underline and the font
sizes as
well as font type.

Well, I have numerous publications from those times that were created in
Word, and I could always preview them prior to printing. So, I don't
know (or care) what your limitations were, but they weren't universal.

it absolutely was a universal limitation. it's *not* possible for dos
to do wysiwyg. period.

whatever preview you had was only an approximation of the final output.
it was *not* wysiwyg.

the mac was the first mainstream computer to do wysiwyg. all drawing to
the screen used the *same* graphics apis as drawing to the printer, so
whatever was on screen was *exactly* what would be on paper, regardless
of font, size, face or embedded graphics.

Years ago, in the pre-win3.1 days of MS-DOS, there was a software
package called "Fontasy". I remember it fondly from that time- it could
do all sorts of graphics, text layout, various fonts (hence the name),
etc; and it ran on......

(Drumroll, please....)

MS-DOS 2.1 or higher.

Here is a Google Books link to PC Mag for Oct 15, 1985, showing a
full-page ad for Fontasy.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Wc...ware&f=fa lse


One of the cool things I remember doing was to lay out a page with
multiple columns and boxes containing photos, then filling in text
around these items on the page. All this on screen, in WYSIWYG, running
on a DOS PC.

At the time, I thought the software was so good, I refused to pirate it!
The program was $50, and additional font disks were (IIRC) only $6 each
for 5" floppies.

Obviously, times have changed, and we don't use 9-pin dot matrix
printers anymore. But the point is: this was a WYSIWYG word processing,
page layout program that ran under DOS.

I remember Fontasy, and there were several such programs available prior
to that with less layout capability. People who think WYSIWYG requires
OS-based GUIs don't understand that WYSISYG means only what it says; one
knows what one will get prior to printing it out.

--
best regards,

Neil

It's a bit more than that, and that is whole point.

Sure if you type _pilchards_ then you know that is underline when sent to the printer but that IS NOT but that is not WYSISYG.


Anyone who understands the many aspects of *professional* typography and
lithographic printing knows that regardless of the OS, *all* WYSIWYG
screen views are approximations, not precise renderings. How good the
renderings are depends on the apps, and the best of them were not
available for the Macs of the day.


But for the user who didn't want to or need have to go to a *professional* typography could do everything themselves on a Mac, that was the point of it.
It was easy, you could see on the screen what it'd be like before printing and could edit and adjust before printing.

Well, as I've stated many times, my use of all hardware, cameras, etc.
is as a professional. So, my responses in this thread are mainly to
inform those who think that the apps, WYSIWYG, etc. were not available
for the PC/DOS systems, which is quite wrong.

--
best regards,

Neil
  #182  
Old October 18th 18, 11:35 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Windows 10 update wipes out files and photos

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 19:01:41 -0400, Tony Cooper
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 11:30:12 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 13:06:14 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:


nothing more than yet another ad hominem attack, because you can't
support any of your claims.

... while you don't support any of your claims.

wrong. they're fully supported, often with numerous links.

Numerous links? Not when you claim you have explained something in the
past. e.g. how should I have best sent 4GB of photographs to my sister
if not with a USB memory stick?

it's in the thread and you responded to it.

do you not remember what you wrote? if not, you have bigger problems.


I'm quite familiar with what I wrote. It's just that I can't interpret
anything you wrote as explaining how should I have best sent 4GB of
photographs to my sister if not with a USB memory stick. Since the
original thread I have asked you a number of times and, as now, you
have continued to evade.


Forgetting - for a moment - nospam's usual weaseling and inability to
provide a better way, I am curious about why you are unable to
communicate to your sister how to view the images on the USB stick.


Her brain is hardwired to make her an artist, a poet and a musician.
Machines of any kind are a mystery. Quite how mysterious she found
them I did not realise until the USB ephisode.

I think the USB stick or a DVD disk are the best way to send the
images, but you have to know if the other person has a DVD tray in the
computer to go that route.


She uses an Apple laptop of some kind. I didn't know whether or not it
had a CD/DVD drive so I opted for USB. Apart from that, I had no
CD/DVD disks available.

I know you can write a clear set of instructions on how to open and
view images from a USB stick, but I can understand if your first
effort was not clear to your sister. She didn't ask for better
instructions?


We did have several tries but in the end she reported that she had
damaged the USB memory stick and didn't want another. I didn't pursue
the matter further.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #183  
Old October 18th 18, 11:39 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Windows 10 update wipes out files and photos

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 13:45:50 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
wrote:

On 18/10/2018 01.55, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 13:06:12 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

you even commented on the various suggestions, so you have full
knowledge of the existence of the post.

in other words, *you* are the one who is evading.

And you will go on arguing like this when if you really had given me a
clear explanation you would direct me to it or quote it.

i did give a clear explanation, which you responded to. don't blame
others if you don't know what you've said.

What do you think was your clear explanation? Come on, give me a
message ID.

read your own posts.

it's not my fault you're senile.


Nor have I stopped beating my wife.

How about demonstrating your non-senility by recalling the post where
you told me the best way to send someone 4GB of photographs.

Come on! I bet you can't.


He did not explain. I have just been reading the thread and he hasn't.
But he will deny it and yet not show the link.


And now he accuses *me* of evading!
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #184  
Old October 19th 18, 12:06 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Windows 10 update wipes out files and photos

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 23:24:10 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

Macs don;t have obscure C drives, or D drives they ahve names and can
be
given any name just loke you'd name a child.

I have C and D, also known as System and User. That naming system
predates both Mac and Dos.

that's not a naming system.

I named them. That's been my naming system for most of the last 30
years.

no. you chose a drive letter based on convention and physical port.
that's *not* a name, nor can you have two of the same letter.


Wrong again. Windows named the drives C and D. I nmaed them System and
Userdisc.


not 30 years ago, you didn't, ...



Not then I didn't, not those names.

... but despite that, it's nowhere near as
flexible or as powerful as disk naming on a mac.


Even if you are correct, that's not the point at issue.

for example, a mac would ask for a floppy by name if it wasn't the one
in the drive. for servers, it would auto-mount them by name, requesting
login credentials if needed.

deviating from that convention causes all sorts of problems, especially
windows, which assumes c: is the boot drive.


Which is why I didn't change it.


so you didn't name it.


I never claimed I assigned the drive letters. I *named* the discs (or
more strictly the partitions). See above.

move the c: drive to another computer in an external enclosure. it's no
longer c:, as that other computer has its own c: drive. so much for the
name you supposedly gave it.

the mac was the first computer to let the user name disks anything they
wanted.


Not quite so. I was doing it with discs for my Cromemco back about ther
time the Apple][ was emerging. I seem to recall that Unix required
volume names almost from the outset.


you recall wrong, and cromemco was not a mass market computer anyway.


BSD Unix (1970s) certainly did require volume naming and my
recollection is that it inherited it from the AT&T version.

There was no mass market for computers at the time I had a Cromemco.
But Cromemco was the market leader. Unix and Cromix reqiured that a
disk be labeled (aka named) as part of the process of initialising.
Come to think of it, I suspect our PDP-11 was the same.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #185  
Old October 19th 18, 01:04 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Windows 10 update wipes out files and photos

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 10:49:13 -0400, Tony Cooper
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 13:14:01 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
wrote:

as i said before, setting up automatic backups is no more difficult
than connecting a hard drive and clicking a button:
https://support.apple.com/library/co...are/images/en_
US/osx/tm_new_drive.png


Ah, there! Connecting a hard drive! Now we get to things.

What is a hard drive? Do we have one?
How do we connect it? Explain it easy.


Based on the sister's inability to view images on a USB stick, I think
even an easy drive would be too hard for her.


I agree.

Those of us who have been using a computer for some time don't
understand the problem that novices have in understanding terms. The
"Start" menu, for example, doesn't start the computer. You have to
start it before you can get to Start.

The USB stick has to be inserted in the USB port. "Port" is not a
word that would mean anything to the novice.

Icons are visible on the "Desktop". How does the novice know that the
"desktop" is what is viewable on the screen and not what the computer
itself might be placed on?

We provide instructions using terms like "Navigate to..." without
explaining what "navigate" means in this context.

I was helping a raw novice set up her HP laptop and told her to turn
on her computer as the first step. She stared at the computer for
some time and finally gave up and asked me how to turn it on. What
must be done is to press and briefly hold a little bar at the top left
that is not marked or labeled. There is no switch or knob or
protruding button that people are used to that turns things on. And,
if you press and hold that bar too long, it stops the computer from
turning on.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #186  
Old October 19th 18, 01:20 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Windows 10 update wipes out files and photos

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 23:24:11 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

the ad even states 'the size may vary on some other printers'.

that they included a disclaimer is a very big clue.

you might have been impressed with it enough to break from your illicit
piracy habits, but the manufacturer even admits it's *not* an exact
match for what came out of the printer.

If that is your definition of WYSIWYG then modern Apple and Windows
systems are not WYSIWYG in that what comes out of the printer is
rarely an exact match for what you see on the screen. And remember, it
was you, just now, introduce the need for an *exact* match.

wrong. nothing has been introduced. i said that the design of mac os
was the first mainstream computer designed with wysiwyg built into the
os itself (i.e., every app) and that what dos did could only be an
approximation which varied depending on all sorts of factors.


In Message-ID: you wrote:

"the mac was the first mainstream computer to do wysiwyg. all
drawing to the screen used the *same* graphics apis as drawing to
the printer, so whatever was on screen was *exactly* what would
be on paper, regardless of font, size, face or embedded
graphics.the mac was the first mainstream computer to do wysiwyg.
all drawing to the screen used the *same* graphics apis as
drawing to the printer, so whatever was on screen was *exactly*
what would be on paper, regardless of font, size, face or
embedded graphics."

Note your use of 'exactly' and 'exact'. Without having to go back and
quote you can see above where you disqualify Fontasy on the grounds
that "the manufacturer even admits it's *not* an exact match for what
came out of the printer".

For this argument you seem to be requiring that screen pixel pitch and
printer dpi be the same. If this argument is going to hold then you
will have to disqualify virtually every computer made today from being
able to claim WYSIWYG.


you are once again trying to turn this into a semantic argument.

no two of anything are 100% exact.

the point is that the mac was a *lot* closer than anything dos could
possibly do, for all sorts of reasons, only one of which is mentioned
above.


But it was _you_ nospam which disqualified Fontasy on the PC because
the output to the printer might not be exactly the same as what was on
the screen.

You accuse me of playing with semantics but I have to. Words mean one
thing to you if it is you that is writing them but you often attribute
a different meaning when you have to respond to them.

all things considered, what dos did was pretty good given the numerous
limitations of the hardware and software, however, it was not as good
as what the mac could do out of the box.

tl;dr anyone who claims dos can do wysiwyg never used a mac.

one of the key features of the macintosh was wysiwyg as part of the os
itself, which means *all* apps are wysiwyg, and nearly two years before
that ad ran.

and while you were fussing with dot-matrix printers, the mac was
printing wysiwyg to the laserwriter at its native resolution.

Laserwriter was 300 dpi while the resolution of the screen of the
classic Macintosh 512x342 on a 9" screen which equals about 68
pixels/inch. Using the definition you used to disqualify Fontasy on
DOS as WYSIWYG the classic MacIntosh was not WYSIWYG either.

wrong. the size was the same, as was the layout, just at a higher
resolution.


And the original Laserwriter used Postscript fonts which were not
bitmaps but used the PS graphics primitives to draw glyphs as curves,
which can then be rendered at any resolution. This was not the system
used by the MacIntosh with the result that (as you say below) what you
got was not the same as what you had originally seen.


it could use either bitmapped or postscript fonts, the latter of which
along with graphics primitives (shapes, curves, patterns etc.) were
rendered at a higher resolution than what the mac's display could show.
the result was *better* than what was on screen.


So they were not exactly the same. i.e. not exactly WYSIWYG.

do not tell me how macs of the day (or even now) worked. you know less
than what i remember.

it was wygibtwys, what you get is better than what you see.

once again, you don't understand something and choose to argue.


All I'm doing is pinning you down on the ever-shifting ground of your
arguments.


nothing is shifting, except your own lack of understanding.

do not blame me for that.

oh, and the laserwriter had appletalk networking built in. multiple
macs and laserwriters could be networked together using ordinary
telephone cord, which was already in the walls. not only any app, but
any mac on the network could print wysiwyg. nothing on the pc side came
anywhere close to that for many years.


Yep. And that enhanced its WYSIWYG abilities. Please try and stay on
the subject.


it's exactly on subject, and it did enhance its abilities.

a department, or even an entire company, could share a single
laserwriter (or more if needed), where everyone could produce high
quality output.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #187  
Old October 19th 18, 01:26 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Windows 10 update wipes out files and photos

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 23:24:08 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

I remember Fontasy, and there were several such programs available prior
to that with less layout capability. People who think WYSIWYG requires
OS-based GUIs don't understand that WYSISYG means only what it says; one
knows what one will get prior to printing it out.

people who think dos could do wysiwyg don't realize that the mac did it
*better*, and without any of the fuss.

wysiwyg on dos was an approximation, perhaps close enough for whatever
you were doing, but there was a lot of room for improvement.


Same thing applied to the classic MacIntosh.


no.

the mac spawned the desktop publishing industry, not dos or even
windows.


No doubt the arrival of the MacIntosh and Laserwriter was important
but "spawning" is bit of a stretch. See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_publishing


it's not a stretch, which your own link *confirms*.

"Desktop publishing was first developed at Xerox PARC in the
1970s.[1][2]


first developed != spawned an industry.

A contradictory claim states that desktop publishing
began in 1983 with a program developed by James Davise at a community
newspaper in Philadelphia.[3] The program Type Processor One ran on a
PC using a graphics card for a WYSIWYG display and was offered
commercially by Best info in 1984.[4] (Desktop typesetting with only
limited page makeup facilities had arrived in 1978Â*9 with the
introduction of TeX, and was extended in the early 1980s by LaTeX.)


tex/latex is the *opposite* of wysiwyg.

The DTP market exploded in 1985 with the introduction in January of
the Apple LaserWriter printer, and later in July with the introduction
of PageMaker software from Aldus, which rapidly became the DTP
industry standard software. Later on, PageMaker overtook Microsoft
Word in professional DTP in 1985.


thereby proving my claim.

it's always amusing when someone tries to argue and ends up proving
themselves wrong.

The term "desktop publishing" is
attributed to Aldus founder Paul Brainerd,[5] who sought a marketing
catch-phrase to describe the small size and relative affordability of
this suite of products, in contrast to the expensive commercial
phototypesetting equipment of the day."


further proof.

And see

"Users of the PageMaker-LaserWriter-Macintosh 512K system endured
frequent software crashes,[7] cramped display on the Mac's tiny 512 x
342 1-bit monochrome screen, the inability to control letter-spacing,
kerning,[8] and other typographic features, and discrepancies between
the screen display and printed output."


the reference does not support the claim.

in particular,

Because earlier versions of Pagemaker were known to less than
bug-free, we looked closely for bugs in Version 2.0, paying special
attention to earlier weak spots. Even after several weeks of testing,
we were not able to crash the program at all, regardless of how we
tried to trick Pagemaker with bizarre command sequences or by
loading corrupt files.
...
We mentioned above that Pagemaker 2.0 has been enhanced to
produce better output -- in fact, better than we've seen from any
other program. Pagemaker automatically regulates a combination of
kerning, letter-spacing, hyphenation, and justification to produce
pages that rival those from professional-level layout systems. (You
can also change the default settings of the features).


It doesn't sound as though the MacIntosh and Laserwriter had quite got
to an exact WYSIWYG.


actually, it does.

they tried hard to get it to crash and could not, with its output
rivaling pro level systems.


That was version 2.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #188  
Old October 19th 18, 02:04 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Tony Cooper[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 188
Default Windows 10 update wipes out files and photos

On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 11:35:49 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 19:01:41 -0400, Tony Cooper
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 11:30:12 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 13:06:14 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:


nothing more than yet another ad hominem attack, because you can't
support any of your claims.

... while you don't support any of your claims.

wrong. they're fully supported, often with numerous links.

Numerous links? Not when you claim you have explained something in the
past. e.g. how should I have best sent 4GB of photographs to my sister
if not with a USB memory stick?

it's in the thread and you responded to it.

do you not remember what you wrote? if not, you have bigger problems.

I'm quite familiar with what I wrote. It's just that I can't interpret
anything you wrote as explaining how should I have best sent 4GB of
photographs to my sister if not with a USB memory stick. Since the
original thread I have asked you a number of times and, as now, you
have continued to evade.


Forgetting - for a moment - nospam's usual weaseling and inability to
provide a better way, I am curious about why you are unable to
communicate to your sister how to view the images on the USB stick.


Her brain is hardwired to make her an artist, a poet and a musician.
Machines of any kind are a mystery. Quite how mysterious she found
them I did not realise until the USB ephisode.

I think the USB stick or a DVD disk are the best way to send the
images, but you have to know if the other person has a DVD tray in the
computer to go that route.


She uses an Apple laptop of some kind. I didn't know whether or not it
had a CD/DVD drive so I opted for USB. Apart from that, I had no
CD/DVD disks available.

I know you can write a clear set of instructions on how to open and
view images from a USB stick, but I can understand if your first
effort was not clear to your sister. She didn't ask for better
instructions?


We did have several tries but in the end she reported that she had
damaged the USB memory stick and didn't want another. I didn't pursue
the matter further.


I am beginning to think there's some other underlying reason. I don't
think she wants to view the images. She's using "I can't" to mean
"I'm not interested".

Nothing wrong with that. It's her choice of what to be interested in.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
  #189  
Old October 19th 18, 10:04 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Windows 10 update wipes out files and photos

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 21:04:37 -0400, Tony Cooper
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 11:35:49 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 19:01:41 -0400, Tony Cooper
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 11:30:12 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 13:06:14 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:


nothing more than yet another ad hominem attack, because you can't
support any of your claims.

... while you don't support any of your claims.

wrong. they're fully supported, often with numerous links.

Numerous links? Not when you claim you have explained something in the
past. e.g. how should I have best sent 4GB of photographs to my sister
if not with a USB memory stick?

it's in the thread and you responded to it.

do you not remember what you wrote? if not, you have bigger problems.

I'm quite familiar with what I wrote. It's just that I can't interpret
anything you wrote as explaining how should I have best sent 4GB of
photographs to my sister if not with a USB memory stick. Since the
original thread I have asked you a number of times and, as now, you
have continued to evade.

Forgetting - for a moment - nospam's usual weaseling and inability to
provide a better way, I am curious about why you are unable to
communicate to your sister how to view the images on the USB stick.


Her brain is hardwired to make her an artist, a poet and a musician.
Machines of any kind are a mystery. Quite how mysterious she found
them I did not realise until the USB ephisode.

I think the USB stick or a DVD disk are the best way to send the
images, but you have to know if the other person has a DVD tray in the
computer to go that route.


She uses an Apple laptop of some kind. I didn't know whether or not it
had a CD/DVD drive so I opted for USB. Apart from that, I had no
CD/DVD disks available.

I know you can write a clear set of instructions on how to open and
view images from a USB stick, but I can understand if your first
effort was not clear to your sister. She didn't ask for better
instructions?


We did have several tries but in the end she reported that she had
damaged the USB memory stick and didn't want another. I didn't pursue
the matter further.


I am beginning to think there's some other underlying reason. I don't
think she wants to view the images. She's using "I can't" to mean
"I'm not interested".


I don't think so. The photographs were an archive of family
photographs going back more than a century. I'm sure she wanted to see
them. However she needed instructions before she could even plug it
in. She later claimed it wouldn't go in because she had damaged it.

Nothing wrong with that. It's her choice of what to be interested in.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #190  
Old October 19th 18, 12:13 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Neil[_9_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 521
Default Windows 10 update wipes out files and photos

On 10/19/2018 5:21 AM, Whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 18 October 2018 18:10:01 UTC+1, Neil wrote:
On 10/18/2018 11:55 AM, Whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 18 October 2018 16:05:58 UTC+1, Neil wrote:
On 10/18/2018 5:03 AM, Whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 October 2018 17:44:12 UTC+1, Neil wrote:
On 10/16/2018 9:07 PM, Ken Hart wrote:
On 10/16/2018 12:17 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , Neil
wrote:

Word under DOS had both mouse control and WYSIWYG, as did all
apps that
needed it, such as drawing, painting, etc. FWIW, Windows 1, 2, & 3.x
were merely DOS shells, and there were better shells available
prior to
them.

I don't remmeber WYSIWYG being any good under DOS. It could have been
that at the time all we had was orange/black or green/black 80
coloumn
monitors.

I think it depends on one's systems.

I don;t think so DOS was NEVER WYSIWYG.

Under DOS/Windows, WYSYIWYG is determined by the app, not the OS. Not
all apps need to be able to preview font sizes and so forth (or even be
able to print, for that matter).

except that dos apps are limited by what dos can do, or in this case,
not do.

I had NTSC color monitors under DOS
and I could see the layout, word spacing, fonts, etc. I was going
to get
prior to printing the document. That, to me, *is* WYSIWYG.

Not at the time it wasn't couldÂ* you see underline and the font
sizes as
well as font type.

Well, I have numerous publications from those times that were created in
Word, and I could always preview them prior to printing. So, I don't
know (or care) what your limitations were, but they weren't universal.

it absolutely was a universal limitation. it's *not* possible for dos
to do wysiwyg. period.

whatever preview you had was only an approximation of the final output.
it was *not* wysiwyg.

the mac was the first mainstream computer to do wysiwyg. all drawing to
the screen used the *same* graphics apis as drawing to the printer, so
whatever was on screen was *exactly* what would be on paper, regardless
of font, size, face or embedded graphics.

Years ago, in the pre-win3.1 days of MS-DOS, there was a software
package called "Fontasy". I remember it fondly from that time- it could
do all sorts of graphics, text layout, various fonts (hence the name),
etc; and it ran on......

(Drumroll, please....)

MS-DOS 2.1 or higher.

Here is a Google Books link to PC Mag for Oct 15, 1985, showing a
full-page ad for Fontasy.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Wc...ware&f=fa lse


One of the cool things I remember doing was to lay out a page with
multiple columns and boxes containing photos, then filling in text
around these items on the page. All this on screen, in WYSIWYG, running
on a DOS PC.

At the time, I thought the software was so good, I refused to pirate it!
The program was $50, and additional font disks were (IIRC) only $6 each
for 5" floppies.

Obviously, times have changed, and we don't use 9-pin dot matrix
printers anymore. But the point is: this was a WYSIWYG word processing,
page layout program that ran under DOS.

I remember Fontasy, and there were several such programs available prior
to that with less layout capability. People who think WYSIWYG requires
OS-based GUIs don't understand that WYSISYG means only what it says; one
knows what one will get prior to printing it out.

--
best regards,

Neil

It's a bit more than that, and that is whole point.

Sure if you type _pilchards_ then you know that is underline when sent to the printer but that IS NOT but that is not WYSISYG.


Anyone who understands the many aspects of *professional* typography and
lithographic printing knows that regardless of the OS, *all* WYSIWYG
screen views are approximations, not precise renderings. How good the
renderings are depends on the apps, and the best of them were not
available for the Macs of the day.

But for the user who didn't want to or need have to go to a *professional* typography could do everything themselves on a Mac, that was the point of it.
It was easy, you could see on the screen what it'd be like before printing and could edit and adjust before printing.

Well, as I've stated many times, my use of all hardware, cameras, etc.
is as a professional. So, my responses in this thread are mainly to
inform those who think that the apps, WYSIWYG, etc. were not available
for the PC/DOS systems, which is quite wrong.


Can you actually show or link to these products which were abvailble for PC/DOS, they were close to WYSIWYG but not what people called WYSIWYG.

You have already admitted that your lack of knowledge of these apps is
based on your lack of need for them. I have no problem with that, and in
fact think that is the smart way to choose hardware and software.

I have no interest whatsoever in wandering around the web to see what is
or isn't available. I do have the discs for those apps, but I'm also not
going to take pictures of them. So, what may I help you to understand is
that WYSIWYG is *always* an approximation, not an absolute. It requires
a GUI, but it doesn't matter a hoot whether that GUI is OS or app-based.

--
best regards,

Neil
 




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