Nikon 'Picture Controls' - help wanted

Starting at about the time of the D300 Nikon many Nikon cameras
incorporate what Nikon refer to as 'Picture Controls'. These take the
form of presets for variables for such things as sharpening, contrast,
brightness, saturation, hue etc.

Not only do Nikon provide various preset combinations of these
variables (Standard, Neutral, Vivid etc) but the user is able to
create, edit and save presets of their own.

I have now found myself in a discussion where I suspect that nobody
really knows the full truth of the situation. Manuals and various
reference books have proved far from helpful. Is the following
correct?

1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW image in
the camera.

2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
creates JPG or TIFF images.

3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be used
by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.


The greater part of my photography is done in RAW mode. Although my
most commonly used software is Nikon (ViewNX and NX2) I have never
used Picture Control so I can't confirm from my own experience whether
Picture Control does or does not affect the formation of the RAW image
in the camera. Is it correct that the RAW image is not affected?

Further, is any other software aware of Nikon Picture Control in that
it makes use of it when editing RAW images?

Under what circumstances do Nikon owners make use of Picture Control?


I expect to receive as many opinions as I do responses. :-)
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On 2012-11-15 19:00:18 -0800, Eric Stevens said:

Starting at about the time of the D300 Nikon many Nikon cameras
incorporate what Nikon refer to as 'Picture Controls'. These take the
form of presets for variables for such things as sharpening, contrast,
brightness, saturation, hue etc.

Not only do Nikon provide various preset combinations of these
variables (Standard, Neutral, Vivid etc) but the user is able to
create, edit and save presets of their own.

Yup!

I have now found myself in a discussion where I suspect that nobody
really knows the full truth of the situation. Manuals and various
reference books have proved far from helpful. Is the following
correct?

1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW image in
the camera.

Correct.

2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
creates JPG or TIFF images.

JPG only

3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be used
by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.

Only if you are shooting RAW+JPEG

Software which can deal with "Picture Control" are the two Nikon
offerings, ViewNX and Capture NX, and The Adobe offerings any of the CS
Photoshop versions, and the current Lightroom 4.


The greater part of my photography is done in RAW mode. Although my
most commonly used software is Nikon (ViewNX and NX2) I have never
used Picture Control so I can't confirm from my own experience whether
Picture Control does or does not affect the formation of the RAW image
in the camera. Is it correct that the RAW image is not affected?

Correct. If you shoot RAW+JPEG the "Picture Control" settings will be
applied to the attached JPEG "preview" so the preview you see in the
LCD display will reflect the "Picture Control" settings.
If you are shooting JPEG only, you can adjust in-camera. I used the
in-camera B&W feature before I bought the NIK software, all thumbnails
& previews were B&W. NEFs had B&W thumbnails, but were still only
viewed by ACR or LR as normal full color RAW files.

Further, is any other software aware of Nikon Picture Control in that
it makes use of it when editing RAW images?

Adobe ACR & Lightroom 4 can apply those settings with the Camera
Profile in the "Camera Calibration" section when processing NEFs. If
you have shot JPEG only you get what you have shot.

Under what circumstances do Nikon owners make use of Picture Control?

I would imagine when shooting RAW+JPEG, or JPEG only, or in-camera
RAW+JPEG, or JPEG only B&W (with or without in-camera color filters
applied).

Another area might be in situations when shooting RAW+JPEG, or JPEG
only when the JPEGs are need immediately with little to no post
processing.

....or if there are issues with deep shadows & brights where HDR is a
no-no and when shooting JPEG only, "Active D-Lighting" can be very
effective.

I expect to receive as many opinions as I do responses. :-)


--
Regards,

Savageduck

Eric Stevens wrote:
[...] Is the following correct?

1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW image in
the camera.

True.

2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
creates JPG or TIFF images.

True.

3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be used
by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.

True.

The greater part of my photography is done in RAW mode. Although my
most commonly used software is Nikon (ViewNX and NX2) I have never
used Picture Control so I can't confirm from my own experience whether
Picture Control does or does not affect the formation of the RAW image
in the camera. Is it correct that the RAW image is not affected?

The raw sensor data is not affected by Picture Controls.

Note however that the preview image is affected, and
therefore the histograms available on the LCD screen are
affected. If the photographer uses those to set the
exposure for the next shot then there is an indirect
effect.

Further, is any other software aware of Nikon Picture Control in that
it makes use of it when editing RAW images?

I don't know positively, but probably not.

Under what circumstances do Nikon owners make use of Picture Control?

Anyone who shoots in JPEG mode would find them very handy.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On 16/11/2012 5:06 p.m., Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
Eric Stevens wrote:


The greater part of my photography is done in RAW mode. Although my
most commonly used software is Nikon (ViewNX and NX2) I have never
used Picture Control so I can't confirm from my own experience whether
Picture Control does or does not affect the formation of the RAW image
in the camera. Is it correct that the RAW image is not affected?

The raw sensor data is not affected by Picture Controls.

Note however that the preview image is affected, and
therefore the histograms available on the LCD screen are
affected. If the photographer uses those to set the
exposure for the next shot then there is an indirect
effect.

Exactly - and it can be very significant if using "Vivid" or "Landscape"
picture controls (or any other or custom setting with high contrast and
saturation) when shooting in difficult light - and shooting in difficult
"interesting" light is often very much what can make some landscape
photographs great. "Pushing" shadows etc in pp landscape is also pretty
normal, so if you lose a stop from under-exposing because of reading the
histogram (or clipping blinkies in the image review) and thinking that
you're blowing the shot when you really aren't, then that's a stop you
can't recover from shadows when pp.

Me wrote:
On 16/11/2012 5:06 p.m., Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
Eric Stevens wrote:


The greater part of my photography is done in RAW mode. Although my
most commonly used software is Nikon (ViewNX and NX2) I have never
used Picture Control so I can't confirm from my own experience whether
Picture Control does or does not affect the formation of the RAW image
in the camera. Is it correct that the RAW image is not affected?

The raw sensor data is not affected by Picture Controls.

Note however that the preview image is affected, and
therefore the histograms available on the LCD screen are
affected. If the photographer uses those to set the
exposure for the next shot then there is an indirect
effect.

Exactly - and it can be very significant if using
"Vivid" or "Landscape" picture controls (or any other or
custom setting with high contrast and saturation) when
shooting in difficult light - and shooting in difficult
"interesting" light is often very much what can make
some landscape photographs great. "Pushing" shadows etc
in pp landscape is also pretty normal, so if you lose a
stop from under-exposing because of reading the
histogram (or clipping blinkies in the image review) and
thinking that you're blowing the shot when you really
aren't, then that's a stop you can't recover from
shadows when pp.

But that is like saying that if you set Exposure
Compensation to +0.7 you'll get blown highlights that
cannot be recovered. It's true, but doesn't mean that
the Exposure Meter is wrong. It just means that like
anything else it has to be properly configured. Same
with the use of the histogram...

Anybody using the histogram to set exposure should full
well know that using "Vivid" will result in a less than
useful histogram. A customized Picture Control, with
low saturation and low contrast would be the proper
choice.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:34:14 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:
: On 2012-11-15 19:00:18 -0800, Eric Stevens said:
:
: Starting at about the time of the D300 Nikon many Nikon cameras
: incorporate what Nikon refer to as 'Picture Controls'. These take the
: form of presets for variables for such things as sharpening, contrast,
: brightness, saturation, hue etc.
:
: Not only do Nikon provide various preset combinations of these
: variables (Standard, Neutral, Vivid etc) but the user is able to
: create, edit and save presets of their own.
:
: Yup!
:
: I have now found myself in a discussion where I suspect that nobody
: really knows the full truth of the situation. Manuals and various
: reference books have proved far from helpful. Is the following
: correct?
:
: 1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW image in
: the camera.
:
: Correct.
:
: 2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
: creates JPG or TIFF images.
:
: JPG only
:
: 3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be used
: by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.
:
: Only if you are shooting RAW+JPEG

That surprises me, because it's so different from the way Canon does it. A
Canon "picture style", either the default (called "Standard") or one that you
select or create, is applied to all images, even in RAW mode. In RAW mode you
can substitute any other picture style in post-processing with a suitably
aware photo editor; in JPEG you're (I think) stuck with whatever you selected.
The reason I'm not sure about that last point is that a photo editor with a
lot of JPEG editing capability (like Photoshop) could, at least in principle,
apply substitute styles to a JPEG image, assuming it understood the style that
was used in-camera and no destructive compression had been applied. Canon's
own editor, Digital Photo Professional, has minimal JPEG editing capability
and applies style changes to RAW images only.

Bob

Robert Coe wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:34:14 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:
: On 2012-11-15 19:00:18 -0800, Eric Stevens said:
:
: Starting at about the time of the D300 Nikon many Nikon cameras
: incorporate what Nikon refer to as 'Picture Controls'. These take the
: form of presets for variables for such things as sharpening, contrast,
: brightness, saturation, hue etc.
:
: Not only do Nikon provide various preset combinations of these
: variables (Standard, Neutral, Vivid etc) but the user is able to
: create, edit and save presets of their own.
:
: Yup!
:
: I have now found myself in a discussion where I suspect that nobody
: really knows the full truth of the situation. Manuals and various
: reference books have proved far from helpful. Is the following
: correct?
:
: 1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW image in
: the camera.
:
: Correct.
:
: 2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
: creates JPG or TIFF images.
:
: JPG only

And TIFF also.

: 3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be used
: by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.
:
: Only if you are shooting RAW+JPEG

That is not actually true, as they are saved even when
shooting only NEF. Even then a JPEG is generated using
the Picture Controls for use as a preview image on the
camera's LCD. It is embedded in the NEF file. The
settins are saved as Exif data.

That surprises me, because it's so different from the way Canon does it. A

Canon does it exactly the same as Nikon, with one small
exception. Canon saves data for Auto White Balance
generated by the camera regardless of the WB setting.
Nikon saves the Auto WB settings only if Auto WB is the
selected option.

Canon "picture style", either the default (called "Standard") or one that you
select or create, is applied to all images, even in RAW mode. In RAW mode you

But it is never applied to the raw sensor data saved in
the RAW file.

can substitute any other picture style in post-processing with a suitably
aware photo editor; in JPEG you're (I think) stuck with whatever you selected.

True, because the settings actually are applied to a
camera generated RGB image (JPEG or TIFF if that is an
available option).

The reason I'm not sure about that last point is that a photo editor with a
lot of JPEG editing capability (like Photoshop) could, at least in principle,
apply substitute styles to a JPEG image, assuming it understood the style that
was used in-camera and no destructive compression had been applied.

That ain't gonna happen! Undoing what was done in
generating the JPEG is not trivial.

Canon's
own editor, Digital Photo Professional, has minimal JPEG editing capability
and applies style changes to RAW images only.

Same as all others... :-)

Not that editors cannot change the same parameters that
are set in the camera. But the editor cannot undo the
amount of sharpening and then use a new value, as an
example. That is difficult with regular "sharpen" and
literally impossible if Unsharp Mask has been used.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On 2012-11-16 10:03:25 -0800, (Floyd L. Davidson) said:

Robert Coe wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:34:14 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:
: On 2012-11-15 19:00:18 -0800, Eric Stevens said:
:
: Starting at about the time of the D300 Nikon many Nikon cameras
: incorporate what Nikon refer to as 'Picture Controls'. These take the
: form of presets for variables for such things as sharpening, contrast,
: brightness, saturation, hue etc.
:
: Not only do Nikon provide various preset combinations of these
: variables (Standard, Neutral, Vivid etc) but the user is able to
: create, edit and save presets of their own.
:
: Yup!
:
: I have now found myself in a discussion where I suspect that nobody
: really knows the full truth of the situation. Manuals and various
: reference books have proved far from helpful. Is the following
: correct?
:
: 1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW image in
: the camera.
:
: Correct.
:
: 2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
: creates JPG or TIFF images.
:
: JPG only

And TIFF also.

OK! that is I guess when shooting TIFF instead of NEF. My head is sort
of locked into NEF.

: 3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be used
: by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.
:
: Only if you are shooting RAW+JPEG

That is not actually true, as they are saved even when
shooting only NEF. Even then a JPEG is generated using
the Picture Controls for use as a preview image on the
camera's LCD. It is embedded in the NEF file. The
settins are saved as Exif data.

I have not found that to be so when I have tried the "Picture Control"
when shooting NEF+JPEG.

Floyd you are, as I am a Nikon user, there is one curiosity I have
experienced regarding shooting NEF+JPEG using the "Picture Control" B&W
settings with the various in-camera color filters. The JPEG & the JPEG
preview & thumbnail show the in-camera B&W conversion, but the NEF is
presented as an unmolested full color RAW to be processed as such in
ACR or LR4(or any other appropriate RAW processor). It is only the JPEG
which seems to be effected with any of the in-camera adjustments in my
D300S.

There is one caveat. Whenever I apply those in-camera adjustments I
have only shot NEF+JPEG as opposed to my usual NEF only. I will try a
few shots applying "Picture Control" adjustments and Active D-Lighting,
including the B&W conversion, while shooting NEF only.

What is your experience? What other knowledge do you have regarding this issue?

--
Regards,

Savageduck

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:03:25 -0900, (Floyd L. Davidson)
wrote:
: Robert Coe wrote:
: On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:34:14 -0800, Savageduck
: wrote:
: : On 2012-11-15 19:00:18 -0800, Eric Stevens said:
: :
: : Starting at about the time of the D300 Nikon many Nikon cameras
: : incorporate what Nikon refer to as 'Picture Controls'. These take the
: : form of presets for variables for such things as sharpening, contrast,
: : brightness, saturation, hue etc.
: :
: : Not only do Nikon provide various preset combinations of these
: : variables (Standard, Neutral, Vivid etc) but the user is able to
: : create, edit and save presets of their own.
: :
: : Yup!
: :
: : I have now found myself in a discussion where I suspect that nobody
: : really knows the full truth of the situation. Manuals and various
: : reference books have proved far from helpful. Is the following
: : correct?
: :
: : 1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW image in
: : the camera.
: :
: : Correct.
: :
: : 2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
: : creates JPG or TIFF images.
: :
: : JPG only
:
: And TIFF also.

If you say so. I wasn't presuming to quibble over the factual accuracy of the
Duck's comments. He's a Nikon user, and I'm not.

: : 3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be used
: : by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.
: :
: : Only if you are shooting RAW+JPEG
:
: That is not actually true, as they are saved even when
: shooting only NEF. Even then a JPEG is generated using
: the Picture Controls for use as a preview image on the
: camera's LCD. It is embedded in the NEF file. The
: settins are saved as Exif data.
:
: That surprises me, because it's so different from the way Canon does it.
:
: Canon does it exactly the same as Nikon, with one small
: exception. Canon saves data for Auto White Balance
: generated by the camera regardless of the WB setting.
: Nikon saves the Auto WB settings only if Auto WB is the
: selected option.

I don't doubt the truth of that observation, but I guess I do question its
relevance. We're discussing the Nikon "picture controls" feature and its Canon
counterpart. White balance, at least in the Canon world, is something
altogether different, with a range of values that don't overlap those in
picture styles in any material way. I'd be surprised if that weren't true in
the Nikon world as well.

: A Canon "picture style", either the default (called "Standard") or one that
: you select or create, is applied to all images, even in RAW mode. In RAW
: mode you
:
: But it is never applied to the raw sensor data saved in
: the RAW file.

I guess that depends on what you mean by "applied to". I could live with
"saved along side of", but I think it's a distinction without a difference.

: can substitute any other picture style in post-processing with a suitably
: aware photo editor; in JPEG you're (I think) stuck with whatever you selected.
:
: True, because the settings actually are applied to a
: camera generated RGB image (JPEG or TIFF if that is an
: available option).
:
: The reason I'm not sure about that last point is that a photo editor with a
: lot of JPEG editing capability (like Photoshop) could, at least in principle,
: apply substitute styles to a JPEG image, assuming it understood the style that
: was used in-camera and no destructive compression had been applied.
:
: That ain't gonna happen! Undoing what was done in
: generating the JPEG is not trivial.

Which is why I save RAW files instead of converted JPEGs.

: Canon's own editor, Digital Photo Professional, has minimal JPEG editing
: capability and applies style changes to RAW images only.
:
: Same as all others... :-)
:
: Not that editors cannot change the same parameters that
: are set in the camera. But the editor cannot undo the
: amount of sharpening and then use a new value, as an
: example. That is difficult with regular "sharpen" and
: literally impossible if Unsharp Mask has been used.

True if you're talking about JPEGs, but not if you're talking about RAW. In a
Canon RAW image sharpening is applied non-destructively and is only
hypothetically set in the camera. I think the camera keeps track of the level
of sharpening you've selected, but sharpening is applied only in the editor.
Same with noise reduction.

Bob

On 11/16/2012 1:03 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
Robert Coe wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:34:14 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:
: On 2012-11-15 19:00:18 -0800, Eric Stevens said:
:
: Starting at about the time of the D300 Nikon many Nikon cameras
: incorporate what Nikon refer to as 'Picture Controls'. These take the
: form of presets for variables for such things as sharpening, contrast,
: brightness, saturation, hue etc.
:
: Not only do Nikon provide various preset combinations of these
: variables (Standard, Neutral, Vivid etc) but the user is able to
: create, edit and save presets of their own.
:
: Yup!
:
: I have now found myself in a discussion where I suspect that nobody
: really knows the full truth of the situation. Manuals and various
: reference books have proved far from helpful. Is the following
: correct?
:
: 1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW image in
: the camera.
:
: Correct.
:
: 2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
: creates JPG or TIFF images.
:
: JPG only

And TIFF also.

: 3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be used
: by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.
:
: Only if you are shooting RAW+JPEG

That is not actually true, as they are saved even when
shooting only NEF. Even then a JPEG is generated using
the Picture Controls for use as a preview image on the
camera's LCD. It is embedded in the NEF file. The
settins are saved as Exif data.

That surprises me, because it's so different from the way Canon does it. A

Canon does it exactly the same as Nikon, with one small
exception. Canon saves data for Auto White Balance
generated by the camera regardless of the WB setting.
Nikon saves the Auto WB settings only if Auto WB is the
selected option.

Canon "picture style", either the default (called "Standard") or one that you
select or create, is applied to all images, even in RAW mode. In RAW mode you

But it is never applied to the raw sensor data saved in
the RAW file.

can substitute any other picture style in post-processing with a suitably
aware photo editor; in JPEG you're (I think) stuck with whatever you selected.

True, because the settings actually are applied to a
camera generated RGB image (JPEG or TIFF if that is an
available option).

The reason I'm not sure about that last point is that a photo editor with a
lot of JPEG editing capability (like Photoshop) could, at least in principle,
apply substitute styles to a JPEG image, assuming it understood the style that
was used in-camera and no destructive compression had been applied.

That ain't gonna happen! Undoing what was done in
generating the JPEG is not trivial.

Canon's
own editor, Digital Photo Professional, has minimal JPEG editing capability
and applies style changes to RAW images only.

Same as all others... :-)

Not that editors cannot change the same parameters that
are set in the camera. But the editor cannot undo the
amount of sharpening and then use a new value, as an
example. That is difficult with regular "sharpen" and
literally impossible if Unsharp Mask has been used.


Do you use in camera noise reduction on your E800? I was playing with in
and found it really slows down the frame rate.

--
Peter