Nikon 'Picture Controls' - help wanted

On 11/17/2012 8:35 AM, PeterN wrote:
On 11/16/2012 1:03 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
Robert Coe wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:34:14 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:
: On 2012-11-15 19:00:18 -0800, Eric Stevens
said:
:
: Starting at about the time of the D300 Nikon many Nikon cameras
: incorporate what Nikon refer to as 'Picture Controls'. These take
the
: form of presets for variables for such things as sharpening,
contrast,
: brightness, saturation, hue etc.
:
: Not only do Nikon provide various preset combinations of these
: variables (Standard, Neutral, Vivid etc) but the user is able to
: create, edit and save presets of their own.
:
: Yup!
:
: I have now found myself in a discussion where I suspect that nobody
: really knows the full truth of the situation. Manuals and various
: reference books have proved far from helpful. Is the following
: correct?
:
: 1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW
image in
: the camera.
:
: Correct.
:
: 2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
: creates JPG or TIFF images.
:
: JPG only

And TIFF also.

: 3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be
used
: by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.
:
: Only if you are shooting RAW+JPEG

That is not actually true, as they are saved even when
shooting only NEF. Even then a JPEG is generated using
the Picture Controls for use as a preview image on the
camera's LCD. It is embedded in the NEF file. The
settins are saved as Exif data.

That surprises me, because it's so different from the way Canon does
it. A

Canon does it exactly the same as Nikon, with one small
exception. Canon saves data for Auto White Balance
generated by the camera regardless of the WB setting.
Nikon saves the Auto WB settings only if Auto WB is the
selected option.

Canon "picture style", either the default (called "Standard") or one
that you
select or create, is applied to all images, even in RAW mode. In RAW
mode you

But it is never applied to the raw sensor data saved in
the RAW file.

can substitute any other picture style in post-processing with a
suitably
aware photo editor; in JPEG you're (I think) stuck with whatever you
selected.

True, because the settings actually are applied to a
camera generated RGB image (JPEG or TIFF if that is an
available option).

The reason I'm not sure about that last point is that a photo editor
with a
lot of JPEG editing capability (like Photoshop) could, at least in
principle,
apply substitute styles to a JPEG image, assuming it understood the
style that
was used in-camera and no destructive compression had been applied.

That ain't gonna happen! Undoing what was done in
generating the JPEG is not trivial.

Canon's
own editor, Digital Photo Professional, has minimal JPEG editing
capability
and applies style changes to RAW images only.

Same as all others... :-)

Not that editors cannot change the same parameters that
are set in the camera. But the editor cannot undo the
amount of sharpening and then use a new value, as an
example. That is difficult with regular "sharpen" and
literally impossible if Unsharp Mask has been used.


Do you use in camera noise reduction on your E800? I was playing with in
and found it really slows down the frame rate.


I meant D800,

--
Peter

PeterN wrote:
On 11/17/2012 8:35 AM, PeterN wrote:
On 11/16/2012 1:03 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
Robert Coe wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:34:14 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:
: On 2012-11-15 19:00:18 -0800, Eric Stevens
said:
:
: Starting at about the time of the D300 Nikon many Nikon cameras
: incorporate what Nikon refer to as 'Picture Controls'. These take
the
: form of presets for variables for such things as sharpening,
contrast,
: brightness, saturation, hue etc.
:
: Not only do Nikon provide various preset combinations of these
: variables (Standard, Neutral, Vivid etc) but the user is able to
: create, edit and save presets of their own.
:
: Yup!
:
: I have now found myself in a discussion where I suspect that nobody
: really knows the full truth of the situation. Manuals and various
: reference books have proved far from helpful. Is the following
: correct?
:
: 1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW
image in
: the camera.
:
: Correct.
:
: 2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
: creates JPG or TIFF images.
:
: JPG only

And TIFF also.

: 3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be
used
: by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.
:
: Only if you are shooting RAW+JPEG

That is not actually true, as they are saved even when
shooting only NEF. Even then a JPEG is generated using
the Picture Controls for use as a preview image on the
camera's LCD. It is embedded in the NEF file. The
settins are saved as Exif data.

That surprises me, because it's so different from the way Canon does
it. A

Canon does it exactly the same as Nikon, with one small
exception. Canon saves data for Auto White Balance
generated by the camera regardless of the WB setting.
Nikon saves the Auto WB settings only if Auto WB is the
selected option.

Canon "picture style", either the default (called "Standard") or one
that you
select or create, is applied to all images, even in RAW mode. In RAW
mode you

But it is never applied to the raw sensor data saved in
the RAW file.

can substitute any other picture style in post-processing with a
suitably
aware photo editor; in JPEG you're (I think) stuck with whatever you
selected.

True, because the settings actually are applied to a
camera generated RGB image (JPEG or TIFF if that is an
available option).

The reason I'm not sure about that last point is that a photo editor
with a
lot of JPEG editing capability (like Photoshop) could, at least in
principle,
apply substitute styles to a JPEG image, assuming it understood the
style that
was used in-camera and no destructive compression had been applied.

That ain't gonna happen! Undoing what was done in
generating the JPEG is not trivial.

Canon's
own editor, Digital Photo Professional, has minimal JPEG editing
capability
and applies style changes to RAW images only.

Same as all others... :-)

Not that editors cannot change the same parameters that
are set in the camera. But the editor cannot undo the
amount of sharpening and then use a new value, as an
example. That is difficult with regular "sharpen" and
literally impossible if Unsharp Mask has been used.


Do you use in camera noise reduction on your E800? I was playing with in
and found it really slows down the frame rate.


I meant D800,

I pretty much always set that to OFF, which isn't really off as such.
OFF restricts it to ISO 1600 and above though, and is a Lower-Than-Low
amount.

I'm not a bit surprised if it slows things down! Those 45-50Mb data
files take a lot of processing to do anything to them.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

"Floyd L. Davidson" wrote in message
...
PeterN wrote:
On 11/17/2012 8:35 AM, PeterN wrote:
On 11/16/2012 1:03 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
Robert Coe wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:34:14 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:
: On 2012-11-15 19:00:18 -0800, Eric Stevens
said:
:
: Starting at about the time of the D300 Nikon many Nikon cameras
: incorporate what Nikon refer to as 'Picture Controls'. These take
the
: form of presets for variables for such things as sharpening,
contrast,
: brightness, saturation, hue etc.
:
: Not only do Nikon provide various preset combinations of these
: variables (Standard, Neutral, Vivid etc) but the user is able to
: create, edit and save presets of their own.
:
: Yup!
:
: I have now found myself in a discussion where I suspect that
nobody
: really knows the full truth of the situation. Manuals and various
: reference books have proved far from helpful. Is the following
: correct?
:
: 1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW
image in
: the camera.
:
: Correct.
:
: 2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
: creates JPG or TIFF images.
:
: JPG only

And TIFF also.

: 3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be
used
: by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.
:
: Only if you are shooting RAW+JPEG

That is not actually true, as they are saved even when
shooting only NEF. Even then a JPEG is generated using
the Picture Controls for use as a preview image on the
camera's LCD. It is embedded in the NEF file. The
settins are saved as Exif data.

That surprises me, because it's so different from the way Canon does
it. A

Canon does it exactly the same as Nikon, with one small
exception. Canon saves data for Auto White Balance
generated by the camera regardless of the WB setting.
Nikon saves the Auto WB settings only if Auto WB is the
selected option.

Canon "picture style", either the default (called "Standard") or one
that you
select or create, is applied to all images, even in RAW mode. In RAW
mode you

But it is never applied to the raw sensor data saved in
the RAW file.

can substitute any other picture style in post-processing with a
suitably
aware photo editor; in JPEG you're (I think) stuck with whatever you
selected.

True, because the settings actually are applied to a
camera generated RGB image (JPEG or TIFF if that is an
available option).

The reason I'm not sure about that last point is that a photo editor
with a
lot of JPEG editing capability (like Photoshop) could, at least in
principle,
apply substitute styles to a JPEG image, assuming it understood the
style that
was used in-camera and no destructive compression had been applied.

That ain't gonna happen! Undoing what was done in
generating the JPEG is not trivial.

Canon's
own editor, Digital Photo Professional, has minimal JPEG editing
capability
and applies style changes to RAW images only.

Same as all others... :-)

Not that editors cannot change the same parameters that
are set in the camera. But the editor cannot undo the
amount of sharpening and then use a new value, as an
example. That is difficult with regular "sharpen" and
literally impossible if Unsharp Mask has been used.


Do you use in camera noise reduction on your E800? I was playing with in
and found it really slows down the frame rate.


I meant D800,

I pretty much always set that to OFF, which isn't really off as such.
OFF restricts it to ISO 1600 and above though, and is a Lower-Than-Low
amount.

I'm not a bit surprised if it slows things down! Those 45-50Mb data
files take a lot of processing to do anything to them.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)


Thanks for your response. Clearly I will have to change my shooting style.
I was playing with the long exposure NR, while bracketing for HDR. The wait
for processing was interminable.
The in camera NR does a pretty good job, much better than in Camera Raw.
I will play with various NR programs and see which works best for me.



--
Peter

"Peter" wrote:
"Floyd L. Davidson" wrote in message
...
PeterN wrote:
On 11/17/2012 8:35 AM, PeterN wrote:
On 11/16/2012 1:03 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
Robert Coe wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:34:14 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:
: On 2012-11-15 19:00:18 -0800, Eric Stevens
said:
:
: Starting at about the time of the D300 Nikon many Nikon cameras
: incorporate what Nikon refer to as 'Picture Controls'. These take
the
: form of presets for variables for such things as sharpening,
contrast,
: brightness, saturation, hue etc.
:
: Not only do Nikon provide various preset combinations of these
: variables (Standard, Neutral, Vivid etc) but the user is able to
: create, edit and save presets of their own.
:
: Yup!
:
: I have now found myself in a discussion where
I suspect that nobody
: really knows the full truth of the situation. Manuals and various
: reference books have proved far from helpful. Is the following
: correct?
:
: 1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW
image in
: the camera.
:
: Correct.
:
: 2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
: creates JPG or TIFF images.
:
: JPG only

And TIFF also.

: 3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be
used
: by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.
:
: Only if you are shooting RAW+JPEG

That is not actually true, as they are saved even when
shooting only NEF. Even then a JPEG is generated using
the Picture Controls for use as a preview image on the
camera's LCD. It is embedded in the NEF file. The
settins are saved as Exif data.

That surprises me, because it's so different from the way Canon does
it. A

Canon does it exactly the same as Nikon, with one small
exception. Canon saves data for Auto White Balance
generated by the camera regardless of the WB setting.
Nikon saves the Auto WB settings only if Auto WB is the
selected option.

Canon "picture style", either the default (called "Standard") or one
that you
select or create, is applied to all images, even in RAW mode. In RAW
mode you

But it is never applied to the raw sensor data saved in
the RAW file.

can substitute any other picture style in post-processing with a
suitably
aware photo editor; in JPEG you're (I think) stuck with whatever you
selected.

True, because the settings actually are applied to a
camera generated RGB image (JPEG or TIFF if that is an
available option).

The reason I'm not sure about that last point is that a photo editor
with a
lot of JPEG editing capability (like Photoshop) could, at least in
principle,
apply substitute styles to a JPEG image, assuming it understood the
style that
was used in-camera and no destructive compression had been applied.

That ain't gonna happen! Undoing what was done in
generating the JPEG is not trivial.

Canon's
own editor, Digital Photo Professional, has minimal JPEG editing
capability
and applies style changes to RAW images only.

Same as all others... :-)

Not that editors cannot change the same parameters that
are set in the camera. But the editor cannot undo the
amount of sharpening and then use a new value, as an
example. That is difficult with regular "sharpen" and
literally impossible if Unsharp Mask has been used.


Do you use in camera noise reduction on your E800? I was playing with in
and found it really slows down the frame rate.


I meant D800,

I pretty much always set that to OFF, which isn't really off as such.
OFF restricts it to ISO 1600 and above though, and is a Lower-Than-Low
amount.

I'm not a bit surprised if it slows things down! Those 45-50Mb data
files take a lot of processing to do anything to them.


Thanks for your response. Clearly I will have to change my shooting style.
I was playing with the long exposure NR, while
bracketing for HDR. The wait for processing was
interminable.

That's a whole different bag of worms! The long
exposure NR takes a dark frame "exposure", with the
shutter closed, for exactly the same length of time as
your regular exposure is set for. The assumption is
that any pixels that light up do to heat will be very
close to the same in both the regular image and the one
with the shutter closed. The dark frame is subtracted,
pixel for pixel, from the regular exposure.

It absolutely will always take exactly twice the shutter
interval for each exposure.

The in camera NR does a pretty good job, much better than in Camera Raw.
I will play with various NR programs and see which works best for me.

I use UFRAW for raw conversion, and execute it from a
script that determines the ISO setting and adjusts
wavelet noise reduction upward as the ISO goes higher.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On 2012-11-17 11:28:37 -0800, "Peter" said:

"Floyd L. Davidson" wrote in message
...



I meant D800,

I pretty much always set that to OFF, which isn't really off as such.
OFF restricts it to ISO 1600 and above though, and is a Lower-Than-Low
amount.

I'm not a bit surprised if it slows things down! Those 45-50Mb data
files take a lot of processing to do anything to them.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)


Thanks for your response. Clearly I will have to change my shooting style.
I was playing with the long exposure NR, while bracketing for HDR. The
wait for processing was interminable.
The in camera NR does a pretty good job, much better than in Camera Raw.
I will play with various NR programs and see which works best for me.

When I shoot a 5 shot bracket with my D300s for HDR, I am usually
shooting RAW only with no in-camera noise reduction or tweaking.
I process HDR with NIK HDR Efex Pro2 directly from the unadjusted NEFs.
So there is no ACR noise reduction, nor any other ACR adjustments
applied.

Once I have completed the HDR processing, I will run the new HDR
through NIK Dfine 2.0 if noise reduction i needed.

Then I finish up any other crops and adjustments to get to my final HDR image.
This HDR shot was done just that way with NIK Dfine 2.0 fixing the
noise in the sky.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/Fil..._2276_HDRw.jpg

BTW: ACR RAW noise reduction and sharpening in CS5 & CS6 is much
improved over earlier editions, and actually works now.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

Peter wrote:
"Floyd L. Davidson" wrote in message
...
PeterN wrote:
On 11/17/2012 8:35 AM, PeterN wrote:
On 11/16/2012 1:03 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
Robert Coe wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:34:14 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:
: On 2012-11-15 19:00:18 -0800, Eric Stevens
said:
:
: Starting at about the time of the D300 Nikon many Nikon cameras
: incorporate what Nikon refer to as 'Picture Controls'. These take
the
: form of presets for variables for such things as sharpening,
contrast,
: brightness, saturation, hue etc.
:
: Not only do Nikon provide various preset combinations of these
: variables (Standard, Neutral, Vivid etc) but the user is able to
: create, edit and save presets of their own.
:
: Yup!
:
: I have now found myself in a discussion where I suspect that
nobody
: really knows the full truth of the situation. Manuals and various
: reference books have proved far from helpful. Is the following
: correct?
:
: 1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW
image in
: the camera.
:
: Correct.
:
: 2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
: creates JPG or TIFF images.
:
: JPG only

And TIFF also.

: 3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be
used
: by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.
:
: Only if you are shooting RAW+JPEG

That is not actually true, as they are saved even when
shooting only NEF. Even then a JPEG is generated using
the Picture Controls for use as a preview image on the
camera's LCD. It is embedded in the NEF file. The
settins are saved as Exif data.

That surprises me, because it's so different from the way Canon does
it. A

Canon does it exactly the same as Nikon, with one small
exception. Canon saves data for Auto White Balance
generated by the camera regardless of the WB setting.
Nikon saves the Auto WB settings only if Auto WB is the
selected option.

Canon "picture style", either the default (called "Standard") or one
that you
select or create, is applied to all images, even in RAW mode. In RAW
mode you

But it is never applied to the raw sensor data saved in
the RAW file.

can substitute any other picture style in post-processing with a
suitably
aware photo editor; in JPEG you're (I think) stuck with whatever you
selected.

True, because the settings actually are applied to a
camera generated RGB image (JPEG or TIFF if that is an
available option).

The reason I'm not sure about that last point is that a photo editor
with a
lot of JPEG editing capability (like Photoshop) could, at least in
principle,
apply substitute styles to a JPEG image, assuming it understood the
style that
was used in-camera and no destructive compression had been applied.

That ain't gonna happen! Undoing what was done in
generating the JPEG is not trivial.

Canon's
own editor, Digital Photo Professional, has minimal JPEG editing
capability
and applies style changes to RAW images only.

Same as all others... :-)

Not that editors cannot change the same parameters that
are set in the camera. But the editor cannot undo the
amount of sharpening and then use a new value, as an
example. That is difficult with regular "sharpen" and
literally impossible if Unsharp Mask has been used.


Do you use in camera noise reduction on your E800? I was playing with in
and found it really slows down the frame rate.


I meant D800,

I pretty much always set that to OFF, which isn't really off as such.
OFF restricts it to ISO 1600 and above though, and is a Lower-Than-Low
amount.

I'm not a bit surprised if it slows things down! Those 45-50Mb data
files take a lot of processing to do anything to them.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)


Thanks for your response. Clearly I will have to change my shooting style.
I was playing with the long exposure NR, while bracketing for HDR. The wait
for processing was interminable.
The in camera NR does a pretty good job, much better than in Camera Raw.
I will play with various NR programs and see which works best for me.

In-camera long exposure noise reduction does good noise reduction
things for long exposures that you can't do in post-processing. But
it's only active if the exposures are long enough, and if so the extra
time isn't processing, it's taking a dark exposure of the same length
in order to subtract long exposure noise inequalities.

--
Chris Malcolm