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#51
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Is Your Browser Color Managed?
On May 25, 2017, android wrote
(in ): In article2017052523112329662-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, Savageduck wrote: On 2017-05-26 06:04:58 +0000, said: In iganews.com, Savageduck wrote: On May 25, 2017, android wrote (in ): In iganews.com, Savageduck wrote: On May 25, 2017, android wrote (in ): In , Tony Cooper wrote: I am still baffled by this type of thinking. The viewer doesn't have any idea at all what you intended. How can the viewer report an inconsistency of unknown values? The only way to get the capture presented to the viewer the way you intended it to be perceived is with a high quality print. ...and that might be a solution, but who here is prepared to produce high quality prints to mail around the globe for a Usenet discussion? Dunno! Anyways, one have to have reasonable expectations on them reproduction capabilities at the other end when dealing with the average internet viewer. Use sRGB as colorspace and so on... Why would I use sRGB for high quality prints when it isn’t part of my workflow? It's internet standard... For online viewing, not printing. And online viewing was your original problem... Problem? What problem? I am not the one with a problem. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#52
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Is Your Browser Color Managed?
On May 25, 2017, android wrote
(in ): In article20170525231507560-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, Savageduck wrote: You don't read everything that is written do you? I will share JPEGs for online viewing in sRGB, but I don't print from JPEG or use sRGB for my print workflow, which has nothing to do with the internet. And the original topic was... Drum drum drum! "Is Your Browser Color Managed?" ....and that question opens a wide field of discussion with regard to color management, workflows, display calibration, and image evaluation, all leading to thread drift within the general area of the original topic. What we learned is many of us use more than one browser, and sometimes the results differ from one to the other. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#53
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Is Your Browser Color Managed?
In article .com,
Savageduck wrote: Problem? What problem? I am not the one with a problem. Oki... -- teleportation kills |
#54
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Is Your Browser Color Managed?
In article .com,
Savageduck wrote: What we learned is many of us use more than one browser, and sometimes the results differ from one to the other. Oki... -- teleportation kills |
#55
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Is Your Browser Color Managed?
On Thu, 25 May 2017 21:28:35 -0400, nospam
wrote: In article , PeterN wrote: (And that, of course, still doesn't take into account variations in color perception between people. I'm, only pointing out software differences here, which is a relatively small part of the equation.) people perceive colours in the same way. if someone says they see bright red, another person will also see bright red, not azure, lemon, russet or grey. Individual perceptions of color may vary from one individual to another, just as taste, and hearing do. nope. this was well established long ago not to be true. http://www.livescience.com/21275-color-red-blue-scientists.html In work published in the journal Nature in 2009, Neitz and several colleagues injected a virus into the monkeys' eyes that randomly infected some of their green-sensitive cone cells duh. they need a study to figure out that infecting some of the cells in an eye will affect perception? the fact remains that people with normal vision see colours the same. Extraordinary! It so happened that at the moment I read that I had http://www.livescience.com/21275-col...cientists.html up in my browser. Of course you won't believe that article. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#56
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Is Your Browser Color Managed?
On Thu, 25 May 2017 21:44:53 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote: "nospam" wrote | As I said, the article is pointing | out that *even with color management and use of | profiles* there will be differences in display between | browsers. He even shows a sample image, illustrating | his main point, that you just can't control what other | people see. | | only if the browsers aren't colour managed. | You just snipped the quote making exactly the opposite point. Read the article and look at the comparison pictures. 3 yellow cars, all different hues. 3 different color-managing browsers. Why is this simple point so hard to grasp? But what kind of color management? -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#57
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Is Your Browser Color Managed?
On Thu, 25 May 2017 22:26:17 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote: "nospam" wrote | while you can't 'control' anything (nor was that ever a goal), you | absolutely can ensure that an image is visually consistent across | multiple devices. | No, you can't. As the article shows, even if you use color management on your own devices, IE may show a different image from Firefox. (That's the quote you snipped. If you want to disagree with the author that's one thing, but you could at least read the article we're talking about.) But getting back to the original point, I wasn't questioning the value of color management locally. I was only saying that once it comes to the Web the idea of controlling what people see is not realistic. The author mentions that sRGB should be used for the Web. So what value does color management in the browser have, unless you're viewing something like a friend's art photographs with an embedded color profile other than sRGB? A real world example: Say Eric has a family get-together next month. He takes pictures, shooting in RAW with a good camera. He then decides to post some online for family to see. First, he's probably going to work with sRGB, since the pictures are going online. Then he's probably going to save to JPG, since the pictures are going online. Does he need an embedded profile? Isn't sRGB default? So why embed an sRGB profile? Because sRGB might be a so-called default but a great number of devices and applications can't even hit sRGB but instead do something else. The profile that is embedded probably won't exactly be sRGB and will need correction to display as sRGB. And all of this will be wasted if the screen can't display sRGB, which is usually the case. That's why you calibrate the screen to find out what it really does. Cousin Susan was wearing a very sexy red minidress and he's got a picture of that to post. But something's wrong. He remembers it tomato red. In the photo there seems to be a shadow or blue tinge making it look cranberry. So he adjusts the hue. So.... he's got an image that's already dealing with a limited color gamut, it's been adjusted to look the way he remembers the scene, and he's dithered colors by saving to JPG. If he has his own website he might want to shrink the images to save on traffic cost. If he posts to something like Dropbox, they might further compress or shrink for the same reason. Going online, the image has thus been downgraded in several ways from the original shot. What advantage did color management give him? It helped to ensure that he saw on his monitor the most accurate possible colors as captured by the camera. Whatever those are. He thought Susan's dress needed to be altered. Was that a problem with his eyesight? Or was the shot tinged? Or was he so taken by Susan's behind that he imagined, in "hindsight", let's say, that her dress was brighter than it actually was? No matter. The image goes online. Now 20 family members see it. It's unlikely that even one of those people has installed the color profile for their monitor, much less calibrated their monitor with an external device. They have different browsers, different eyes, different OSs, different monitors. They're all looking at a notably downgraded version of an altered photo of Susan's dress. What purpose did it serve that Eric calibrated his monitor? Almost none. It only helped him to get the colors he wanted for his own eyes, on his own computer, as he looked at the image of Susan colored by his own imagination of what he saw at the party. And as the article author pointed out, even on his machine, his color managed browser is probably not showing him the exact same colors that Photoshop is showing him. Then his cousin Ed writes and says, "Nice pictures. But how did Susan's orange dress come out red?" Where's the discrepancy? It's anyone's guess. You're trying to achieve an absolute objectivity where none exists. With color management locally you can achieve some degree of correlation, but you can't translate that to other devices and software, and on the Web you've already settled for a relatively low quality image where exact color matching is not very relevant. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#58
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Is Your Browser Color Managed?
"Tony Cooper" wrote
| However, there is a second way to determine consistency: two or more | people, one of which provides the standard, with their own laptops | sitting in the same room under the same conditions. Two or more | screens can be compared. | But of course that has no real world application. And even then it wouldn't be surprising to get a conversation like..... # That's a nice blue. @ Blue? You mean the green? # Green? Is that what you see. What do you mean by green? Are they both seeing the same color and naming it differently, or are they seeing different colors. An interesting example of something similar made the rounds online awhile back: https://www.theguardian.com/science/...lour-constancy |
#59
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Is Your Browser Color Managed?
"Savageduck" wrote
| You are stating that any comment from a viewer that reports an | inconsistency can be assumed to be a problem at the viewer's end. | | Tell me what is troubling you and we might come to a consensus as to | whether or not you are seeing my intended image, or if I have made some | gross illogical adjustment, or if it is a taste issue, or a problem | with the viewer's system. | I think there's an issue of context here, which is part of the original point. If you share a high quality photo with photographer friends, or maybe a publisher, you may assume they have a calibrated monitor on their end and you can coordinate what OS/software they use to view the image. So if they see some problem it's likely to be an issue on their end and perhaps you can straighten it out. If you post a JPG online, to share or use on a webpage, any inconsistency is not the viewer's "problem". It's your problem if you expected precision. Presumably you're doing your best to make a consistent presentation, but you have to accept the context and recognize that your audience will see various things. It's just the nature of the medium. | For example, in many of your images | the grass in the image "doesn't look right" to me. California grass | is different from Florida grass in color. I may be seeing what you | intended, but still not feel the image is right. In this case, the | inconsistency is the viewer's perception of what is right. | | Agreed. Florida and California are quite different. I think of you as a notably talented photographer. You've posted photo after photo that have been beautifully done. One of my favorites is a photo you took of a swan that appeared to be swimming through liquid obsidian. But now, with this discussion, I realize that my color management is so poor I was probably just looking at a photo of that crummy California grass and it was distorted on my monitor. |
#60
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Is Your Browser Color Managed?
On 2017-05-26 14:24:01 +0000, "Mayayana" said:
"Savageduck" wrote | You are stating that any comment from a viewer that reports an | inconsistency can be assumed to be a problem at the viewer's end. | | Tell me what is troubling you and we might come to a consensus as to | whether or not you are seeing my intended image, or if I have made some | gross illogical adjustment, or if it is a taste issue, or a problem | with the viewer's system. | I think there's an issue of context here, which is part of the original point. If you share a high quality photo with photographer friends, or maybe a publisher, you may assume they have a calibrated monitor on their end and you can coordinate what OS/software they use to view the image. So if they see some problem it's likely to be an issue on their end and perhaps you can straighten it out. If you post a JPG online, to share or use on a webpage, any inconsistency is not the viewer's "problem". It's your problem if you expected precision. Presumably you're doing your best to make a consistent presentation, but you have to accept the context and recognize that your audience will see various things. It's just the nature of the medium. | For example, in many of your images | the grass in the image "doesn't look right" to me. California grass | is different from Florida grass in color. I may be seeing what you | intended, but still not feel the image is right. In this case, the | inconsistency is the viewer's perception of what is right. | | Agreed. Florida and California are quite different. I think of you as a notably talented photographer. You've posted photo after photo that have been beautifully done. One of my favorites is a photo you took of a swan that appeared to be swimming through liquid obsidian. I can't take credit for the shot you described, the shooter must be PeterN, Tony, or some other yet to be IDed photographer. But now, with this discussion, I realize that my color management is so poor I was probably just looking at a photo of that crummy California grass and it was distorted on my monitor. As soon as we get to late May mid-June the hills around my home, and the "green strip" behind my house are far from green and closer to "California gold" in color. -- Regards, Savageduck |
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