Sunday at Laguna Seca

On 2010-08-18 10:03:25 -0700, "Frank ess" said:



otter wrote:
On Aug 17, 3:07 pm, Savageduck
wrote:
An HTML gallery of some shots from Sunday at Laguna Seca,
Motorsports Reunion.

If you are in anyway "green" this might not be for you. ;-)

http://homepage.mac.com/co/Sites/LagunaSwH/index.html

--
Regards,

Savageduck

Very cool. I'd never seen a car with 4 front wheels before. I
assume that is for traction? Anyway, very nice pics.

The rationale was reducing frontal area without losing traction
(contact patch aerea). It worked, but apparently not enough to make it
a 'must' in all designs.

There are a few photos of that and some other F1 cars, as well as a few
dozen 'P&S' shots of the racers at Monterey Historics in my two albums
from a few years back:

Monterey Historics
2003 and '04

What! You didn't get up to the "corkscrew" ?

The last few days my legs have been aching from trekking up and down
that hill, and hours wandering the paddock. Tiring, but enjoyable.

....and you are correct regarding the Tyrrell. the idea of the small
frontal area tires removed that "wall of rubber" out front. Then the
rule changes and some failures killed the concept.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

Frank ess wrote:
otter wrote:
On Aug 17, 3:07 pm, Savageduck
wrote:
An HTML gallery of some shots from Sunday at Laguna Seca,
Motorsports Reunion.

If you are in anyway "green" this might not be for you. ;-)

http://homepage.mac.com/co/Sites/LagunaSwH/index.html

--
Regards,

Savageduck

Very cool. I'd never seen a car with 4 front wheels before. I
assume that is for traction? Anyway, very nice pics.

The rationale was reducing frontal area without losing traction
(contact patch aerea). It worked, but apparently not enough to make
it a 'must' in all designs.

There are a few photos of that and some other F1 cars, as well as a
few dozen 'P&S' shots of the racers at Monterey Historics in my two
albums from a few years back:

Monterey
Historics 2003 and '04

I was mistaken: no pictures of the 6-wheel Tyrell in that bunch.

On 10-08-18 13:03 , Savageduck wrote:
On 2010-08-18 09:21:20 -0700, Alan Browne
said:

On 10-08-18 10:25 , Walter Banks wrote:


Alan Browne wrote:

Now, in today's (that is to say the last 20 years or so) environment,
auto racing is mostly a noisy, polluting waste.

It's time for auto racing to focus on renewable energy sources so that
racing can again benefit production autos.

Actually some of the racing technology is trickling into production cars
still. In my real life I work on software tools for automotive engine
controllers, both production and racing.

A lot of the same algorithms that were developed for race car
engines to extract performance out of the engines have been
applied to production cars to improve fuel economy. The current
F1 cars are finding ways to trade bursts of acceleration for a higher
average power rather than a higher peak power. This approach
will start to show up in production cars I would guess in 2016 or
2018.

It's well beyond diminishing returns. For that matter, most "advances"
apply to the most powerful engines. When a fuel gulper improves by a
few %, little progress has been made. For that matter, in conventional
engines, auto makers have been doing things that the racing industry
has not done much about. I know that F1 is tinkering with bits and
pieces of it, but that's not where the most beneficial advances will
come from, IMO. For example they're introducing a flywheel energy
store, but that "suits" F1 (lots of accelerating and decelerating)
whereas flywheels have always been a poor suit for "regular" autos.

On the other hand, motor racing with renewables, electrics, etc. will
provide a huge base of experimentation that will result in advances in
range per unit of energy.

(Frankly the number one paying advance is to make cars as light as
possible. F=ma is still at release 1.0 and has not been updated at all).

F1 make their cars light for a reason. There has not been much of that
in the "real" automobile industry.

The only "current" big $ racing that really applies may be the Le Mans
endurance racing series (and other related series). Notably
turbo-diesel (Audi) big sweeps in the past years.

Volkswagen had a little 3 banger turbo diesel that significantly
outperformed the Prius in mileage without the benefit of an electrical
package. (It was, to be sure a smaller car). Left the market in 2005
but I'd wager it will be back. _small_ turbo'd cars get a huge energy
recovery, this suits diesel more than the lighter engine gasoline
powered cars. (Perhaps gasoline engines need to made smaller AND
slightly heavier (per litre) in order to use the turbo as much as
possible...). This pre-dates the Audi racing effort, however.

Doing some research for a friend I came upon this (I had this idea
over 10 years ago [and I'm sure others did], but the huge problem was
the very high turbo rpm (beyond generator rpms [eddy current issues])
which thingap have solved:
http://www.thingap.com/automotive/
(DL the pdf for the engine mapping). This would mean 0 load on the
alternator for most of a car trip. With careful energy management the
alternator could be removed altogether. (accounts for about 6 - 8 hp
on a typical mid/large car). Indeed, _all_ accessories could be
electrically driven (steering, braking, water pump, air conditioning)
so that the engine is not loaded with parasitic loads. Some redundancy
in those systems would be needed. And on top of all that, spare power
could be battery stored for acceleration aiding. This would suit
diesel or gasoline (and other) engines.

But don't look to racing for it.

Well since you brought up diesel, the current leader in diesel
development from racing is Peugeot.
Their racing program has been a winner shaming the likes of Audi,
Ferrari, Porsche, Aston-Martin, and BMW with motors such as V12 turbo
diesel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peugeot_908_HDi_FAP

Yes, but on the heels of Audi's many year supremacy. And Audi are now
finishing a new diesel to take on Peugot.


http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...diesel-winners



They are also racing in different classes to develop the cars for street
sales.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/13/p...s-of-nurburgr/

This is the opposite tack: take a "street" car and lighten it up for racing.





...and that has resulted in vehicles such as their "Car of the year" the
5008, and the recently showcased 75 MPG Peugeot 307 HDI;

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/pe...ays-20283.html

http://www.reallynatural.com/archive...75_mpg_acr.php




http://www.worldcarfans.com/10708293...ybrid-for-2010

Not based on a race vehicle.

Note that the VW I mentioned was diesel _only_. Had it had hybrid
components, it would have leveraged that, somewhat (although it hardly
had room for the battery paks...)



There is your Prius beater.

There are a few truths in the world:

1. The French have never held onto a top spot in ... well, anything
other than food and wine, for any length of time.

2. Toyota will not stand on the Prius.

I love French cheese and wine. I'd never buy a French car. (I remember
driving from Valence to Lyon in a Peugot or Renault at highish speed and
the engine kept quitting. Clutch in, change lanes, reduce speed to 120
km/hr or so and re-start. Did this about every 20 km on that drive).



--
gmail originated posts are filtered due to spam.

On 2010-08-18 11:05:27 -0700, "Frank ess" said:



Frank ess wrote:
otter wrote:
On Aug 17, 3:07 pm, Savageduck
wrote:
An HTML gallery of some shots from Sunday at Laguna Seca,
Motorsports Reunion.

If you are in anyway "green" this might not be for you. ;-)

http://homepage.mac.com/co/Sites/LagunaSwH/index.html

--
Regards,

Savageduck

Very cool. I'd never seen a car with 4 front wheels before. I
assume that is for traction? Anyway, very nice pics.

The rationale was reducing frontal area without losing traction
(contact patch aerea). It worked, but apparently not enough to make
it a 'must' in all designs.

There are a few photos of that and some other F1 cars, as well as a
few dozen 'P&S' shots of the racers at Monterey Historics in my two
albums from a few years back:

Monterey
Historics 2003 and '04

I was mistaken: no pictures of the 6-wheel Tyrell in that bunch.

Try this one;
http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/_DNC5077w.jpg

--
Regards,

Savageduck

Alan Browne wrote:

It's well beyond diminishing returns. For that matter, most "advances"
apply to the most powerful engines. When a fuel gulper improves by a
few %, little progress has been made. For that matter, in conventional
engines, auto makers have been doing things that the racing industry has
not done much about. I know that F1 is tinkering with bits and pieces
of it, but that's not where the most beneficial advances will come from,
IMO. For example they're introducing a flywheel energy store, but that
"suits" F1 (lots of accelerating and decelerating) whereas flywheels
have always been a poor suit for "regular" autos.

Flywheels are a better way of capturing energy during breaking than
most of the electrical alternatives. F1 cars were early users of successful
flywheel technology. F1 engines are normally aspirated and many of the
software "tweeks" is applicable to EPA mileage requirements. Several
race car engine controllers developed good mixing models in the engine
and adjusted fuel metering during injection (at 4 usec intervals) to get
a uniform mix in the cylinder.

On the other hand, motor racing with renewables, electrics, etc. will
provide a huge base of experimentation that will result in advances in range per unit of energy.

I agree

(Frankly the number one paying advance is to make cars as light as
possible. F=ma is still at release 1.0 and has not been updated at all).

F1 make their cars light for a reason. There has not been much of that
in the "real" automobile industry.

Smart car and Tata Nano are two that are focused on light weight.
The energy needed to move a car is essentially a function of drag
coefficient and weight.

The only "current" big $ racing that really applies may be the Le Mans
endurance racing series (and other related series). Notably
turbo-diesel (Audi) big sweeps in the past years.

Volkswagen had a little 3 banger turbo diesel that significantly
outperformed the Prius in mileage without the benefit of an electrical
package.

There have been some amazing advances in Italy in diesel engines
using high pressure injectors that fuel very close to top dead centre.
The air swirl in the cylinder is close to super sonic and the late fuel
injection prevents detonation allowing higher cylinder pressures.
Most of the diesel advances has been materials and electronic control.

Indeed, _all_ accessories could be
electrically driven (steering, braking, water pump, air conditioning) so
that the engine is not loaded with parasitic loads. Some redundancy in
those systems would be needed. And on top of all that, spare power
could be battery stored for acceleration aiding. This would suit diesel
or gasoline (and other) engines.


There has been some serious movement to electric cooling fans,
electric power steering and some electric braking.

Regards,


w...
--
Walter Banks
Byte Craft Limited
http://www.bytecraft.com

"Savageduck" wrote in message
news:2010081810153643658-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom...

...and you are correct regarding the Tyrrell. the idea of the small
frontal area tires removed that "wall of rubber" out front. Then the rule
changes and some failures killed the concept.


Uhm!
Oh, you're talking about cars
Silicone me

--
Peter

On 2010-08-18 11:13:52 -0700, Alan Browne
said:

On 10-08-18 13:03 , Savageduck wrote:
On 2010-08-18 09:21:20 -0700, Alan Browne
said:

On 10-08-18 10:25 , Walter Banks wrote:


Alan Browne wrote:

Now, in today's (that is to say the last 20 years or so) environment,
auto racing is mostly a noisy, polluting waste.

It's time for auto racing to focus on renewable energy sources so that
racing can again benefit production autos.

Actually some of the racing technology is trickling into production cars
still. In my real life I work on software tools for automotive engine
controllers, both production and racing.

A lot of the same algorithms that were developed for race car
engines to extract performance out of the engines have been
applied to production cars to improve fuel economy. The current
F1 cars are finding ways to trade bursts of acceleration for a higher
average power rather than a higher peak power. This approach
will start to show up in production cars I would guess in 2016 or
2018.

It's well beyond diminishing returns. For that matter, most "advances"
apply to the most powerful engines. When a fuel gulper improves by a
few %, little progress has been made. For that matter, in conventional
engines, auto makers have been doing things that the racing industry
has not done much about. I know that F1 is tinkering with bits and
pieces of it, but that's not where the most beneficial advances will
come from, IMO. For example they're introducing a flywheel energy
store, but that "suits" F1 (lots of accelerating and decelerating)
whereas flywheels have always been a poor suit for "regular" autos.

On the other hand, motor racing with renewables, electrics, etc. will
provide a huge base of experimentation that will result in advances in
range per unit of energy.

(Frankly the number one paying advance is to make cars as light as
possible. F=ma is still at release 1.0 and has not been updated at all).

F1 make their cars light for a reason. There has not been much of that
in the "real" automobile industry.

The only "current" big $ racing that really applies may be the Le Mans
endurance racing series (and other related series). Notably
turbo-diesel (Audi) big sweeps in the past years.

Volkswagen had a little 3 banger turbo diesel that significantly
outperformed the Prius in mileage without the benefit of an electrical
package. (It was, to be sure a smaller car). Left the market in 2005
but I'd wager it will be back. _small_ turbo'd cars get a huge energy
recovery, this suits diesel more than the lighter engine gasoline
powered cars. (Perhaps gasoline engines need to made smaller AND
slightly heavier (per litre) in order to use the turbo as much as
possible...). This pre-dates the Audi racing effort, however.

Doing some research for a friend I came upon this (I had this idea
over 10 years ago [and I'm sure others did], but the huge problem was
the very high turbo rpm (beyond generator rpms [eddy current issues])
which thingap have solved:
http://www.thingap.com/automotive/
(DL the pdf for the engine mapping). This would mean 0 load on the
alternator for most of a car trip. With careful energy management the
alternator could be removed altogether. (accounts for about 6 - 8 hp
on a typical mid/large car). Indeed, _all_ accessories could be
electrically driven (steering, braking, water pump, air conditioning)
so that the engine is not loaded with parasitic loads. Some redundancy
in those systems would be needed. And on top of all that, spare power
could be battery stored for acceleration aiding. This would suit
diesel or gasoline (and other) engines.

But don't look to racing for it.

Well since you brought up diesel, the current leader in diesel
development from racing is Peugeot.
Their racing program has been a winner shaming the likes of Audi,
Ferrari, Porsche, Aston-Martin, and BMW with motors such as V12 turbo
diesel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peugeot_908_HDi_FAP

Yes, but on the heels of Audi's many year supremacy. And Audi are now
finishing a new diesel to take on Peugot.

All good competition.



http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...diesel-winners



They

are also racing in different classes to develop the cars for street
sales.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/13/p...s-of-nurburgr/

This

is the opposite tack: take a "street" car and lighten it up for racing.

An old tradition.
Fortunately in Le Mans style GT/Touring Car racing there are different
classes which put different cars of different performance and
development level on the track at the same time, making many races out
of one event, and a different skill set for all of those drivers to
deal with. Single class races do not have that sort of problem with
traffic.
Though with the new teams in F1, the complaints are coming from the
faster drivers about having to deal with the slower cars.





...and that has resulted in vehicles such as their "Car of the year" the
5008, and the recently showcased 75 MPG Peugeot 307 HDI;

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/pe...ays-20283.html

http://www.reallynatural.com/archive...75_mpg_acr.php




http://www.worldcarfans.com/10708293...ybrid-for-2010

Not

based on a race vehicle.

No, but an extension of their diesel development, which goes back to the 50's.

Note that the VW I mentioned was diesel _only_. Had it had hybrid
components, it would have leveraged that, somewhat (although it hardly
had room for the battery paks...)



There is your Prius beater.

There are a few truths in the world:

1. The French have never held onto a top spot in ... well, anything
other than food and wine, for any length of time.

....and for wine their industry was saved by the importation of
California vine stock when their vineyards suffered a blight some years
ago. That California vine stock was of French origin and was their only
hope to resurrect the vast majority of their vineyards.


2. Toyota will not stand on the Prius.

Agreed.

I love French cheese and wine. I'd never buy a French car. (I
remember driving from Valence to Lyon in a Peugot or Renault at highish
speed and the engine kept quitting. Clutch in, change lanes, reduce
speed to 120 km/hr or so and re-start. Did this about every 20 km on
that drive).

I have to admit I have never been a fan of French cars, having seen,
and experienced some that through those friends and family have owned
over the years. They include Simcas, various Renaults of different
levels of reliability (some quite good, others nightmarish).

That said, Peugeots of 60's vintage were bullet proof. I have seen
Peugeot 404's & 504's in Africa running hard without issue with
200K-400K + miles on the clock.

Citroens were just too weird for me.

From what I have seen, today the best development work in motorsport
for the Euro-cars is coming out of rally cars, and among the smaller
cars Peugeot, Citroen, Audi, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Ford, and Toyota have
all benefitted.

I have no experience of the current crop of Franco-Euro cars.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

On 2010-08-18 11:35:58 -0700, "Peter" said:

"Savageduck" wrote in message
news:2010081810153643658-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom...

...and you are correct regarding the Tyrrell. the idea of the small
frontal area tires removed that "wall of rubber" out front. Then the
rule changes and some failures killed the concept.


Uhm!
Oh, you're talking about cars
Silicone me

It looks like another week of hormonal distress for Pete. ;-)


--
Regards,

Savageduck

"Savageduck" wrote in message
news:2010081811543027544-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom...
On 2010-08-18 11:35:58 -0700, "Peter" said:

"Savageduck" wrote in message
news:2010081810153643658-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom...

...and you are correct regarding the Tyrrell. the idea of the small
frontal area tires removed that "wall of rubber" out front. Then the
rule changes and some failures killed the concept.


Uhm!
Oh, you're talking about cars
Silicone me

It looks like another week of hormonal distress for Pete. ;-)




Oysters haven't been working for me.

The other day I had three dozen.

Only six of them worked.

--
Peter

"Walter Banks" wrote in message
...

Actually some of the racing technology is trickling into production cars
still. [...] A lot of the same algorithms that were developed for race car
engines to extract performance out of the engines have been applied to
production cars to improve fuel economy.

Sure. One thing I would like to see is a switch towards new materials and
lower mass street cars. Clean energy sources. And last but not least
automated cars from the runabout town to luxury vehicle, and integrate with
the bus, rail, and aircraft infrastructure.

Why can't I book transport from wherever I am by mobile phone, get a time
estimate and step into a freshly valeted robo-car when it arrives, catch
the high speed train to the next city, stay a few days in an automagically
booked hotel room, and step smoothly on to a long distance flight?

One of the biggest mistakes Rover made before it collapsed is it didn't push
its design centre into coaches, lorries, and trains. They had the experience
and capacity but lacked the lobbying and market making ability to turn it
into something when others did.

--
Charles E Hardwidge