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How to get good black & white from digital?
1 -
2 - 3 - 4 - ? Oh, you were expecting *me* to supply some tips..? No, I'm a no-talent loser in this area! I was hoping to hear from those who have tried, successfully or otherwise, to get high quality black and white results from a digital workflow. I think it's a given that the printer is a big issue, and that you need a lot of resolution (eg 200 ppi is probably not going to suffice!). But I would like to concentrate on the *capture stage* - what is it that makes a superb b&w image? A great b&w has a 'look' to it that is often referred to, but rarely is an attempt made to explain *what gives it that quality* - is it the tone curve, the dynamic range, the nature of the media, ... I'm a bit sick of hearing "you just can't do quality b&w with digital" - while I agree that seems to be mostly true, I want to know *exactly why*...!!! Seems to me that if the issues can be defined, then maybe there are some workarounds and techniques that will help to let us digital-geeks begin to explore the final frontier... If the issues *can't* be defined, then that also tells me something.. (O; If I've missed a good site on this topic, *please* enlighten me!! PS - The answer "use film" - while technically correct - is not quite the answer I seek... PPS - Any attempts to answer this thread concentrating specifically on the issues while avoiding personality clashes, will be greatly appreciated. (O: |
#2
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How to get good black & white from digital?
On Oct 14, 4:18 am, wrote:
I'm a bit sick of hearing "you just can't do quality b&w with digital" - while I agree that seems to be mostly true, I want to know *exactly why*...!!! I don't agree with this at all. It is very possible to get quality B&W from a digital capture. So the question becomes, "Why can't you?" |
#3
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How to get good black & white from digital?
Mark
Black and white looks "snapier" (nothing to do with photo snaps) becuase the toneal contrast can be adjusted in grays that are difficult to adjust with a colour shot without distorting the colour. Better digital black and white prints can be made from a colour digital image than can be made in the wet darkroom from black and white film. To learn converting colour digital to black and white there are many books available which contain a wide range of information (too much to give a quick reply in a network news reply) - I suggest you do a search on Amazon for black and white photography. A poor printer will give poor colour as well as black and white prints Malcolm .. |
#4
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How to get good black & white from digital?
On Oct 14, 4:18 am, wrote:
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - ? Oh, you were expecting *me* to supply some tips..? No, I'm a no-talent loser in this area! I was hoping to hear from those who have tried, successfully or otherwise, to get high quality black and white results from a digital workflow. I think it's a given that the printer is a big issue, and that you need a lot of resolution (eg 200 ppi is probably not going to suffice!). But I would like to concentrate on the *capture stage* - what is it that makes a superb b&w image? A great b&w has a 'look' to it that is often referred to, but rarely is an attempt made to explain *what gives it that quality* - is it the tone curve, the dynamic range, the nature of the media, ... I'm a bit sick of hearing "you just can't do quality b&w with digital" - while I agree that seems to be mostly true, I want to know *exactly why*...!!! Seems to me that if the issues can be defined, then maybe there are some workarounds and techniques that will help to let us digital-geeks begin to explore the final frontier... If the issues *can't* be defined, then that also tells me something.. (O; If I've missed a good site on this topic, *please* enlighten me!! PS - The answer "use film" - while technically correct - is not quite the answer I seek... PPS - Any attempts to answer this thread concentrating specifically on the issues while avoiding personality clashes, will be greatly appreciated. (O: I used black and white 35mm film for years. Now I use digital b&w and I find it so much more convenient. For one, I don't have to keep changing filters on the lens, which incidently takes away the quality of the glass you spent so much on. But the main point is I love the results with digital. They are very sharp with as much contrast and tonal range as you want. I've pretty much had it with most labs. They have screwed up my film more than I care to think about. There is an excellent one here in Toronto that specializes in b&w, but it can get expensive. I have done extensive comparisons with 35mm b&w film and digital and I believe that you can get the same great contrast with beautiful tonal range with either. It depends a lot on the quality of your printer as well. Of course the best black and white is large format. Helen |
#5
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How to get good black & white from digital?
On Oct 14, 6:26 pm, Annika1980 wrote:
On Oct 14, 4:18 am, wrote: I'm a bit sick of hearing "you just can't do quality b&w with digital" - while I agree that seems to be mostly true, I want to know *exactly why*...!!! I don't agree with this at all. It is very possible to get quality B&W from a digital capture. So the question becomes, "Why can't you?" Fair question. And I'll probably never be a good b&w imager - I just don't readily see scenes in b&w... I tend to experiment with images I have already taken, and (more by accident than design), 'discover' those that look good (or at least better than they did in colour...) in b&w. But I don't often see striking b&w images that have been *captured* in digital, and often my results have the boring 'look' that I got with a recent SI submission: http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/86568468 or, say, from this portrait: http://www.marktphoto.com/portrait/slides/lara_1.jpg neither of which is quite what I wanted - plus with the first one I ran into posterisation problems (granted, it was not shot raw..). And I often hear comments about the difficulty in getting the quality achieved from a good b&w film and them legendary platinum prints... here are a few examples of the 'look' I mean - of course you could (accurately) say these images are more about the image content and how they were lit. But any tips on how to approach this sort of tonality (for want of a better word) would be appreciated. http://archives.imaginginfo.com/arti...6970_Lyson.jpg http://a4.vox.com/6a00d10a7a1eb08bfa...c0b46a47-500pi http://www.chroniclebooks.com/Chroni...8/coltrane.jpg http://www.thespiderawards.com/image...ichele_009.jpg http://lakarita.bravehost.com/Karita...ard_Avedon.jpg Anwyay, I'm sure I've heard you say that b&w is mostly a waste of time! Are you turning? (O: |
#6
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How to get good black & white from digital?
On Oct 14, 6:26 pm, Annika1980 wrote:
On Oct 14, 4:18 am, wrote: I'm a bit sick of hearing "you just can't do quality b&w with digital" - while I agree that seems to be mostly true, I want to know *exactly why*...!!! I don't agree with this at all. It is very possible to get quality B&W from a digital capture. So the question becomes, "Why can't you?" He can't Bret, because he piles rubbish, scorn and insults on those most able to help then expects he'll just blather in and ask for help! It's a bit like the dog who bites his master and still expects to be fed. I second your opinion (for once). I've been doing it for years as no doubt, you have too. Doug |
#7
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How to get good black & white from digital?
On Oct 14, 8:06 pm, D_Mac wrote:
He can't... (insults deleted) I've been doing it for years as no doubt, you have too. Doug I'll ignore the insults and simply ask him to show some of these successful images he has created, in the spirit of educating the lesser mortals such as myself. I've posted a couple of bad ones of mine - so why not, Doug? |
#8
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How to get good black & white from digital?
On Oct 14, 7:03 pm, wrote:
I used black and white 35mm film for years. Now I use digital b&w and I find it so much more convenient. For one, I don't have to keep changing filters on the lens, which incidently takes away the quality of the glass you spent so much on. But the main point is I love the results with digital. They are very sharp with as much contrast and tonal range as you want. I've pretty much had it with most labs. They have screwed up my film more than I care to think about. There is an excellent one here in Toronto that specializes in b&w, but it can get expensive. I have done extensive comparisons with 35mm b&w film and digital and I believe that you can get the same great contrast with beautiful tonal range with either. It depends a lot on the quality of your printer as well. Of course the best black and white is large format. Helen That's encouraging to hear, Helen - thanks! I guess it boils down to two areas - one is of visualising what will work in b&w, and then how to achieve the perfect spread of grey tones, along with nailing the black and white points. I tend to avoid complex curves (I prefer just tweaking the sliders in Levels) when adjusting my images - maybe I need to spend more time on that area. If your capture seems flat or uninteresting, what approach do you use to get the tonality right? cheers, mt |
#9
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How to get good black & white from digital?
Just to add a bit of a partially relevant story to this post.. here's
a b&w image I took that I'm a little happier with: http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1910545 This rather ugly looking tree trunk has quite a history - a famous image was taken of it back in the 1930's by Harold Cazneaux, who called the image "Spirit of Endurance" - see he http://www.nla.gov.au/exhibitions/caz/spirit.html and click on the first image to see it (it hasn't survived the years very well..). I tried to emulate that image with my shot, as a bit of a tribute to Harold and to show the effect of the passing years on this beautiful tree - my shot was taken a few years ago (yes, digital..!). This tree forms a majestic marker to the Wilpena Pound/Flinders Ranges in South Australia, and in the early 70's it still looked like this: http://www.marktphoto.com/landscape/slides/cazneaux.htm * Since then the tree has lost some of its beauty (having lost a lot of the crown and with the lower trunk covered in regrowth as shown in my b&w shot) but it is still an awesome sight. * - I have a b&w version of this image somewhere, too, if anyone is interested, but the original was shot on colour film (K64). |
#10
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How to get good black & white from digital?
I'm not exactly sure why he thought we needed a new thread..
For the sake of completeness, Doug has posted an example of his b&w work he http://www.weddingsnportraits.com.au...ono-colour.htm He has obviously used a 100% red channel mix. Imo (which isn't worth much), the image could use a bit less red channel with green added, to avoid the ghostly IR appearance of the woman, and a little blue so the car isn't quite so blackened. Take a look at the various channels - which looks more natural? What would others have done? (and I know this isn't about composition, but the cut off arm and the burnt foreground areas (surely not flash!) are pretty distracting..) Thanks, Doug. (O; |
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