How to measure ISO

On 2015-11-10 16:31:29 +0000, Sandman said:

In article , nospam wrote:

Whisky-dave:
I thought you said the D700 was a mechanical shutter.

nospam:
it does not, nor have just about all slrs since the 1980s or
so.

Whisky-dave:
Still talking **** then.

nospam:
nope. cameras have had electronic shutters for *years*.

Whisky-dave:
Nope they haven't they have electronic timing and triggeering the
shutters are mechanical as yet there are NO solid state shutters.

that's what electronic shutter means.

the timing is electronic, which is why it's *far* more accurate than
a mechanical shutter that uses springs and gears.

Uh, an electronic shutter isn't using a mechanical shutter. It's either/or.
DSLR's have had electronic shutter *release* since forever, yes. But
"electronic
shutter" means something different, hence the confusion. Also, Dave.

My X-E2 and the X-T1 use hybrid mechanical/electronic shutters
depending on the AF method in use. (after updating the firmware to V
3.0)
It uses on-sensor phase detection AF and contrast AF, and provides for
automatic switching when used with the Fujicon XF lenses. Most
importantly it is good to know what each will and won't do for you as
each is better suited for different light conditions and whether or not
flash is used.

Generally it is best to use the "e-shutter" when you need silence or
higher shutter speeds particularly using a fast lenses wide open in
bright light.

"The FUJINON XF Lens series lineup includes a number of fast fixed
focal length lenses which boast very high sharpness with the aperture
wide open, producing excellent out of focus “bokeh�. However, fast
apertures are difficult to use if the light is too bright, so to ensure
users can create shallow depth-of-field effects, the camera is now
equipped with a fully electronic shutter offering a maximum shutter
speed of 1/32000sec. The mechanical shutter will not operate at all
when any speed for the electronic shutter is selected, which also
delivers a completely silent shooting experience; perfect for shots of
sleeping children, pets, weddings, and more. In addition, it is
possible to set the electronic shutter in 1/3 steps from a range of
1sec to 1/32000sec. "

http://www.thedowntowncreative.com/blog/2014/12/23/mechanical-vs-electronic-shutter-high-speed-results

--


Regards,

Savageduck

In article ,
Sandman wrote:

nope. cameras have had electronic shutters for *years*.

Whisky-dave:
Nope they haven't they have electronic timing and triggeering the
shutters are mechanical as yet there are NO solid state shutters.

that's what electronic shutter means.

the timing is electronic, which is why it's *far* more accurate than
a mechanical shutter that uses springs and gears.

Uh, an electronic shutter isn't using a mechanical shutter. It's either/or.
DSLR's have had electronic shutter *release* since forever, yes. But
"electronic
shutter" means something different, hence the confusion. Also, Dave.

the term electronic shutter has always meant electronically timed ever
since the first electronic shutter over 30 years ago.

http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Canon_AE-1
€ Shutter: cloth focal plane electronic shutter travelled
horizontally, speeds: 2-1/1000 +B; setting*: dial on left of the top
plate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS-1D
Shutter Electronic shutter, all speeds electronically controlled

the shutter release *might* be electronic but it is not always. many
older slrs had a mechanical release that triggered a shutter with
electronic timing.

only with digital cameras has there been a new meaning, where unlike
film, the sensor can be electronically turned on/off. unfortunately,
that type of shutter has a lot of drawbacks, particularly in an slr.

some people think that electronic shutter can *only* mean the new
meaning, with no mechanical parts whatsoever. they are wrong.

for the nitpickers out there, it should be called an electro-mechanical
shutter, but nobody does that. calling it an electronic shutter is
valid.

more importantly, the difference doesn't matter anyway. it's yet
another diversion.

the issue in this thread is that a fully mechanical shutter on a view
camera was timed with an slr (an idea that itself is bizarre), and the
results saying that all speeds were accurate except for only one.

being off only on one speed is not possible with a mechanical shutter.

it's not like each speed has its own individual set of springs and
gears. if one speed is off, other speeds will also be off. it might be
a range of speeds or it might be all of them, but it will not be *just*
one speed.

since the result of the test is not possible, the testing methodology
must be bogus.

it doesn't really matter if the shutter in that second camera is fully
electronic (new meaning) or electronically timed (traditional meaning).
either way, it's not an accurate way to test another shutter.

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

I thought you said the D700 was a mechanical shutter.

it does not, nor have just about all slrs since the 1980s or so.

Still talking **** then.

nope. cameras have had electronic shutters for *years*.

Nope they haven't they have electronic timing and triggeering the
shutters
are mechanical as yet there are NO solid state shutters.

that's what electronic shutter means.

the timing is electronic, which is why it's *far* more accurate than a
mechanical shutter that uses springs and gears.

but teh shutter is still mechanical, it still uses as slit of differning
sizes in order to get the correct exposure.

it's electronically timed (crystal oscillator and digital logic), which
is why it's called an electronic shutter.

it is not mechanically timed (gears and springs), which is why it's not
called a mechanical shutter.

very simple.

technically it's an electro-mechanical shutter, but nobody calls it
that.

Why did you say "it's highly unlikely that a mechanical shutter would
be accurate at all shutter speeds except for just one, especially an
old one."

because that's how it is.

so still talking crap.

nope.

if a mechanical shutter is off, it's off at more than just one speed.

Wrong. The slit in the shutter can be out too.

nope, but even if that were the case, all speeds would be affected, not
just one.

more importantly, the shutter being tested did not have a slit. it was
on a view camera.

you're *so* very confused.

http://photo.net/large-format-photography-forum/00Uajj

In article , Whisky-dave
wrote:

Whisky-dave:
I thought you said the D700 was a
mechanical shutter.

nospam:
it does not, nor have just about all slrs since
the 1980s or so.

Whisky-dave:
Still talking **** then.

nospam:
nope. cameras have had electronic shutters for
*years*.

Whisky-dave:
Nope they haven't they have electronic timing
and triggeering the shutters are mechanical as yet there are
NO solid state shutters.

nospam:
that's what electronic shutter means. the timing is electronic,
which is why it's *far* more accurate than a mechanical shutter
that uses springs and gears.

Sandman:
Uh, an electronic shutter isn't using a mechanical shutter. It's
either/or. DSLR's have had electronic shutter *release* since
forever, yes. But "electronic shutter" means something different,
hence the confusion. Also, Dave.

The shutter works by allowing a slit of light to expose the sensor.
Most shutters ON DLSR are mehanical have have been for a very long
time.

Yes, but with an electronic release, which is what I think nospam is in reference
to. This means that the shutter is electronically controlled, instead of
mechanically controlled, as most analog film cameras used ages ago.

So his point is valid, but his terminology can be misinterpreted easily.

--
Sandman

In article 2015111009070049943-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, Savageduck wrote:

Whisky-dave:
I thought you said the D700 was a
mechanical shutter.

nospam:
it does not, nor have just about all slrs since
the 1980s or so.

Whisky-dave:
Still talking **** then.

nospam:
nope. cameras have had electronic shutters for
*years*.

Whisky-dave:
Nope they haven't they have electronic timing
and triggeering the shutters are mechanical as yet there are
NO solid state shutters.

nospam:
that's what electronic shutter means.

the timing is electronic, which is why it's *far* more accurate
than a mechanical shutter that uses springs and gears.

Sandman:
Uh, an electronic shutter isn't using a mechanical shutter. It's
either/or. DSLR's have had electronic shutter *release* since
forever, yes. But "electronic shutter" means something different,
hence the confusion. Also, Dave.

My X-E2 and the X-T1 use hybrid mechanical/electronic shutters
depending on the AF method in use. (after updating the firmware to V
3.0) It uses on-sensor phase detection AF and contrast AF, and
provides for automatic switching when used with the Fujicon XF
lenses. Most importantly it is good to know what each will and
won't do for you as each is better suited for different light
conditions and whether or not flash is used.

Generally it is best to use the "e-shutter" when you need silence or
higher shutter speeds particularly using a fast lenses wide open in
bright light.

Indeed, but a true electronic shutter requires a special sensor with what's
called a "snap shutter" circuitry.

Nikon used a hybrid until the D40 actually, where the electronic shutter could
expose for 1/500, but the mechanical shutter could only go to 1/90, so the
mechanical shutter would let light in for 1/90 and then the electronical shutter
would expose for 1/500. This led to the infamous "bloom" of those cameras, where
the sensor circuits would receive tons more light when the electronic shutter
would "open" than with a true 1/500 mechanical shutter.

In newer cameras with electronic shutters, probably in yours, you have added
circuitry that is purged prior to exposure since the sensor is being flooded by
light all the time, so when exposing for 1/500, the sensors are "emptied" of
data, exposure starts, and after 1/50:th of a second, it is read to buffer.

This can, of course, be coupled with a mechanical (hybrid) shutter as well,
meaning you can make sure the sensors is always dark prior to exposure
mechanically instead of electronically.

--
Sandman

In article , nospam wrote:

In article
,

nospam:
nope. cameras have had electronic shutters for *years*.

Whisky-dave:
Nope they haven't they have electronic timing
and triggeering the shutters are mechanical as yet there are
NO solid state shutters.

nospam:
that's what electronic shutter means.

the timing is electronic, which is why it's *far* more accurate
than a mechanical shutter that uses springs and gears.

Sandman:
Uh, an electronic shutter isn't using a mechanical shutter. It's
either/or. DSLR's have had electronic shutter *release* since
forever, yes. But "electronic shutter" means something different,
hence the confusion. Also, Dave.

the term electronic shutter has always meant electronically timed
ever since the first electronic shutter over 30 years ago.

Yes, but these days it means the lack of, or not use of, a mechanical shutter.
Meaning that the exposure is 100% electronic. When mechanical shutter releases
were abandoned, electronic shutter releases took their place because they were,
as you say, more reliable.

But since then, the phrase "electronic shutter" means a snap shutter circuitry
in the sensor, and is sometimes used in conjunction with a mechanical shutter
(like on the Nikon D40, D70, D100 etc).

http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Canon_AE-1 € Shutter: cloth
focal plane electronic shutter travelled horizontally, speeds:
2-1/1000 +B; setting*: dial on left of the top plate

Yes, this was in the analog area, where "electronic shutter" could only mean an
electronically controlled shutter, just like I said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS-1D Shutter Electronic
shutter, all speeds electronically controlled

Yes, the Canon 1D, like the Nikon D70, D40 and D100, had an electronic shutter
like I described above. Not *just* an electronically controlled shutter. There
is a difference.

The Canon 1D *mechnical* shutter maxes out at 1/125, but the *electronic*
shutter (not electronic shutter control) goes up to 1/16,000.

As you can see on the Canon 1DII, they removed the electronic shutter:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS-1D_Mark_II

And now it has a normal mechanical shutter that goes up to 1/8000, which is
electronically *controlled*, but it's not an electronic shutter. Big
difference.

the shutter release *might* be electronic but it is not always. many
older slrs had a mechanical release that triggered a shutter with
electronic timing.

Indeed.

only with digital cameras has there been a new meaning, where unlike
film, the sensor can be electronically turned on/off. unfortunately,
that type of shutter has a lot of drawbacks, particularly in an slr.

This is probably going to change sooner than later, with sensor technology
growing and snap shuttering getting more and more efficient.

some people think that electronic shutter can *only* mean the new
meaning, with no mechanical parts whatsoever. they are wrong.

These days, it is by far mostly used to refer to a snap shutter, that can be
used in conjunction with a mechanical shutter in some cameras.

for the nitpickers out there, it should be called an
electro-mechanical shutter, but nobody does that. calling it an
electronic shutter is valid.

At least it was back in the analog days, these days the term has a new more
used and more apt meaning.

more importantly, the difference doesn't matter anyway. it's yet
another diversion.

It was confusion that appeared in the discussion based on terminlogy and how it
is used - I just cleared it up.

the issue in this thread is that a fully mechanical shutter on a
view camera was timed with an slr (an idea that itself is bizarre),
and the results saying that all speeds were accurate except for only
one.

Indeed, and I agree with you that that was odd, if not outright impossible. It
would have been another thing if all speeds were accurate except those above X
- which would point to a mechanical failure in the shutter mechanism at some
shutter travel

being off only on one speed is not possible with a mechanical
shutter.

it's not like each speed has its own individual set of springs and
gears. if one speed is off, other speeds will also be off. it might
be a range of speeds or it might be all of them, but it will not be
*just* one speed.

Agreed.

since the result of the test is not possible, the testing
methodology must be bogus.

Was this not an anecdotal story? I don't think we have any data to go by, or do
we?

it doesn't really matter if the shutter in that second camera is
fully electronic (new meaning) or electronically timed (traditional
meaning). either way, it's not an accurate way to test another
shutter.

Well, a high speed camera would probably be better, for sure. But if you want
it in the ballpark, using a modern DSLR shutter gives you a pretty good and
precise data to start from at least.

--
Sandman

In article ,
Sandman wrote:

Nikon used a hybrid until the D40 actually, where the electronic shutter
could
expose for 1/500, but the mechanical shutter could only go to 1/90, so the
mechanical shutter would let light in for 1/90 and then the electronical
shutter
would expose for 1/500. This led to the infamous "bloom" of those cameras,
where
the sensor circuits would receive tons more light when the electronic shutter
would "open" than with a true 1/500 mechanical shutter.

that was yet another shutter type variant, and the fastest speed of the
d40 was 1/4000th, not 1/500th.

one major advantage was that the flash could sync at any speed,
something many people did not realize.

it was actually a feature of the 6mp sensor, which was made by sony and
also used by pentax and others.

In article ,
Sandman wrote:

the timing is electronic, which is why it's *far* more accurate
than a mechanical shutter that uses springs and gears.

Sandman:
Uh, an electronic shutter isn't using a mechanical shutter. It's
either/or. DSLR's have had electronic shutter *release* since
forever, yes. But "electronic shutter" means something different,
hence the confusion. Also, Dave.

the term electronic shutter has always meant electronically timed
ever since the first electronic shutter over 30 years ago.

Yes, but these days it means the lack of, or not use of, a mechanical
shutter.

no it doesn't.

these days it still means electronically timed, since a fully
electronic non-mechanical shutter is rare.

Meaning that the exposure is 100% electronic. When mechanical shutter
releases
were abandoned, electronic shutter releases took their place because they
were,
as you say, more reliable.

But since then, the phrase "electronic shutter" means a snap shutter
circuitry
in the sensor, and is sometimes used in conjunction with a mechanical shutter
(like on the Nikon D40, D70, D100 etc).

those shutters are not the norm and haven't been used since.

http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Canon_AE-1 € Shutter: cloth
focal plane electronic shutter travelled horizontally, speeds:
2-1/1000 +B; setting*: dial on left of the top plate

Yes, this was in the analog area, where "electronic shutter" could only mean
an
electronically controlled shutter, just like I said.

no, that's not what you said.

you said an electronic shutter was fully electronic, with no mechanical
parts:
Uh, an electronic shutter isn't using a mechanical shutter. It's
either/or


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS-1D Shutter Electronic
shutter, all speeds electronically controlled

Yes, the Canon 1D, like the Nikon D70, D40 and D100, had an electronic
shutter
like I described above. Not *just* an electronically controlled shutter.
There
is a difference.

nope again!

they all had electronically *timed* shutters which is what this thread
is about.

in the case of the nikon d40/50/70/100, the shutter was a hybrid, where
it used electronically timed blades, but at faster speeds, it *also*
was controlled electronically on the sensor.

The Canon 1D *mechnical* shutter maxes out at 1/125, but the *electronic*
shutter (not electronic shutter control) goes up to 1/16,000.

As you can see on the Canon 1DII, they removed the electronic shutter:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS-1D_Mark_II

nope yet again!

the shutter on the 1dii is also electronically timed.

And now it has a normal mechanical shutter that goes up to 1/8000, which is
electronically *controlled*, but it's not an electronic shutter. Big
difference.

that's the traditional meaning, which you admit above!

the shutter release *might* be electronic but it is not always. many
older slrs had a mechanical release that triggered a shutter with
electronic timing.

Indeed.

only with digital cameras has there been a new meaning, where unlike
film, the sensor can be electronically turned on/off. unfortunately,
that type of shutter has a lot of drawbacks, particularly in an slr.

This is probably going to change sooner than later, with sensor technology
growing and snap shuttering getting more and more efficient.

the laws of physics say otherwise.

it might get 'good enough' for typical users, but there will always be
a need for a physical shutter mechanism, just as there will for a true
optical viewfinder.

some people think that electronic shutter can *only* mean the new
meaning, with no mechanical parts whatsoever. they are wrong.

These days, it is by far mostly used to refer to a snap shutter, that can be
used in conjunction with a mechanical shutter in some cameras.

nope. it's used for both.

for the nitpickers out there, it should be called an
electro-mechanical shutter, but nobody does that. calling it an
electronic shutter is valid.

At least it was back in the analog days, these days the term has a new more
used and more apt meaning.

nope.

the traditional meaning is still very much in use.

more importantly, the difference doesn't matter anyway. it's yet
another diversion.

It was confusion that appeared in the discussion based on terminlogy and how
it is used - I just cleared it up.

no you didn't.

you actually made it worse by mentioning the 6mp hybrid.

the issue in this thread is that a fully mechanical shutter on a
view camera was timed with an slr (an idea that itself is bizarre),
and the results saying that all speeds were accurate except for only
one.

Indeed, and I agree with you that that was odd, if not outright impossible.
It
would have been another thing if all speeds were accurate except those above
X
- which would point to a mechanical failure in the shutter mechanism at some
shutter travel

not necessarily a failure. it could just be a stretched spring.

a failure would mean the shutter would not work at all, or at best,
only on some speeds.

being off only on one speed is not possible with a mechanical
shutter.

it's not like each speed has its own individual set of springs and
gears. if one speed is off, other speeds will also be off. it might
be a range of speeds or it might be all of them, but it will not be
*just* one speed.

Agreed.

since the result of the test is not possible, the testing
methodology must be bogus.

Was this not an anecdotal story? I don't think we have any data to go by, or
do
we?

it's one story, but the conclusion is not possible.

it doesn't really matter if the shutter in that second camera is
fully electronic (new meaning) or electronically timed (traditional
meaning). either way, it's not an accurate way to test another
shutter.

Well, a high speed camera would probably be better, for sure.

maybe a little, but it's the wrong tool.

camera repair shops have tools that can test the accuracy of shutter
mechanisms. some smaller shops might even test it for free if they're
not too busy.

sometimes camera shows have booths where you can bring equipment to be
tested for no charge (other than entrance to the show itself, if any).

But if you want
it in the ballpark, using a modern DSLR shutter gives you a pretty good and
precise data to start from at least.

not the way he did it.

In article , nospam wrote:

Sandman:
Nikon used a hybrid until the D40 actually, where the electronic
shutter could expose for 1/500, but the mechanical shutter could
only go to 1/90, so the mechanical shutter would let light in for
1/90 and then the electronical shutter would expose for 1/500.
This led to the infamous "bloom" of those cameras, where the
sensor circuits would receive tons more light when the electronic
shutter would "open" than with a true 1/500 mechanical shutter.

that was yet another shutter type variant

No, that's a normal mechanical/electronic shutter hybrid, used in many cameras.

and the fastest speed of the d40 was 1/4000th, not 1/500th.

Yeah, my bad. Sorry about that. But the mechanical shutter maxes out at 1/90.

one major advantage was that the flash could sync at any speed,
something many people did not realize.

Yes, the published sync speed was 1/500, which is where I got the number from.

it was actually a feature of the 6mp sensor, which was made by sony
and also used by pentax and others.

Every electronic shutter is a feature of the sensor.

--
Sandman

In article ,
Sandman wrote:

Nikon used a hybrid until the D40 actually, where the electronic
shutter could expose for 1/500, but the mechanical shutter could
only go to 1/90, so the mechanical shutter would let light in for
1/90 and then the electronical shutter would expose for 1/500.
This led to the infamous "bloom" of those cameras, where the
sensor circuits would receive tons more light when the electronic
shutter would "open" than with a true 1/500 mechanical shutter.

that was yet another shutter type variant

No, that's a normal mechanical/electronic shutter hybrid, used in many
cameras.

nope. it was unique to the sony sensor, which allowed nikon to use a
cheaper shutter mechanism.

and the fastest speed of the d40 was 1/4000th, not 1/500th.

Yeah, my bad. Sorry about that. But the mechanical shutter maxes out at 1/90.

in other words, it's a hybrid.

one major advantage was that the flash could sync at any speed,
something many people did not realize.

Yes, the published sync speed was 1/500, which is where I got the number from.

that's the officially supported sync speed.

nikon limits it to that speed with their flashes, however, with a
non-nikon flash (or by fooling the camera), it will sync at any speed,
something that was quite useful in certain situations.

it was actually a feature of the 6mp sensor, which was made by sony
and also used by pentax and others.

Every electronic shutter is a feature of the sensor.

nope. it was a feature specific to the sony 6mp sensor. it can't be
done with recent sensors.