Only fools rely solely on "the cloud."

In article , MC
wrote:



Even the Magna Carta had backups. There are still, apparently,
17 known copies of the original 250, or so, still in existance.
None of them have needed the cloud to survive and all 17 have,
so far, survived a lot longer than anything digital.

false comparison. there was no digital back then.

Erm... yeah. I know. I was merely pointing out they have survived a
long time without being digital.

with a lot of effort, and in climate controlled environments.

But the technology to do this is very recent in historical terms. The
storage would have been very basic up til then and yet they survived
the for hundreds of years.

they were still protected, which is not only effort, but it costs
money, especially for the security.

it's not like someone has a copy in a box somewhere in their house,
such as a damp basement, or in a hot attic, or in a car sitting in the
sun...




digital does not degrade nor are there generational losses. every
copy is exactly the same as the original.

But each copy is prone to digital corruption and the tools required
to access them are also prone to damage and corruptive influences.

an individual copy might, but the chances of all copies suddenly
corrupting themselves at the same time is essentially zero.

A bit like your fire and hurricane scenario for the magna carta.

no, because there's only one original.

the more copies there are, the closer to zero it is.

Never zero though

nothing is zero, not even for the magna carta.

one match and it's gone.

On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 09:13:12 -0500, Bill W wrote:

Where should it have been stored? Where could that not happen? What
would the probability have been of their stuff being stolen if they'd
used a strong password?

Hi Bill W,

FACT + LOGIC

THANK YOU Bill W for being an adult in:
a. First agreeing with obvious fact, and then, in
b. Asking for a logical assessment of that fact.

I can see that you can proceed to the stage of logical assessment of fact!

While nospam is a well-known Apple Apologist, the mere fact that you agreed
with and _comprehended_ the simple well-cited well-reported well-known
public facts, instantly _distinguishes_ you apart from the Apple Apologists
like nospam (who simply deny all facts outright that they don't like).
o What key trait distinguishes Apple Apologists from normal adults?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/yyNyGsFKPlQ

Normally, with Apple Apologists, they simply deny all facts out of hand
they don't like, which they do, I think, because by doing so, it prevents
any adult logical discussion of those facts (as witnessed by almost
everything nospam says).

The fact you, Bill, and most other adults would instantly agree with the
simple, trivial, and obvious fact that the photos were stolen from "the
cloud", allows us to _have_ an adult discourse, Bill W, where we can then
discuss the logical ramifications of that obvious public fact.

Here's my take on a logical assessment of the facts we agree upon.

FACT:
o The photos were "on" the cloud, and hence, were stolen "from" the cloud.
LOGIC:
o How should we store photos so that they are not stolen?

Since this is r.p.d, I will limit my discussion to photos, although I will
note that the subsequent post by nospam about a stolen Secret Service
laptop easily fits the _same_ logical assessment.

I don't claim to be an expert, so my answer to your logical question, Bill,
is what "I" would do if I "needed" to store my photos so that they were
accessible to me.

First off, Bill, you may note that I strive to store _nothing_ on the cloud!

I simply pass all my databases, encrypted if necessary, on my own LAN
o What are some key common databases you often SHARE between your desktop & mobile devices?
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/ovnHGVriYsI/0frYPkC3AQAJ

You'll note that means that *I keep my CALENDER & CONTACTS off the cloud*:
o Can we come up with a free, ad free, cloud-free calendaring system that works with Windows and Linux and mobile devices?
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.os.linux/ydQ9sG-8Y08/pBRXk7UEEgAJ

And *I keep my data (including pictures) off the cloud*:
o Does the iTunes app store have any free disk encryption container software?
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/ACvkdg_zvDI/tYfHGdpTBAAJ

Notice that I would do (essentially) what the Secret Service did with the
stolen laptop that nospam speaks about.

If I was forced at gun point to put my naked pictures on the cloud like
those actresses did, I would simply slide them into my encryption
container, using the strong encryption passwords provided by my encryption
software.

As you're well aware, encryption container software is free on all
platforms other than on iOS, so you can tests them out at any time.
o Best freeware for portable encrypted file containers
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/cas1QJ_j2uI/4Uut0HGrBgAJ

Here's my argument, in a nutshell, based on a logical assessment of fact:
1. Personally, I strive to store nothing on the cloud
2. But it's work to do that (see my threads referencing the effort)
3. There's no good reason (IMHO) to store Calendar data on the cloud
4. There's no good reason (IMHO) to store Contact data on the cloud
5. There's no good reason (IMHO) to store passwd data on the cloud
6. The main thing left (IMHO) is storing PERSONAL data on the cloud.
7. For personal data, I'd use encrypted containers to store on the cloud.
Note: That's (essentially) what the Secret Service did with that laptop.

Notice that encrypted container software is free on all platforms other
than on iOS, so the barrier to adoption is very low. You can maintain the
master encrypted container on any platform, and then pass it about to the
other platforms. Or you can merge into any encrypted container, so that
there is no single master copy, but working copies as needed.

HINT: I use encrypted containers all the time and have been doing so for as
long as I can remember, where it's a time-honored sensible approach (IMHO).

On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 11:10:21 -0400, nospam wrote:

even if it's not in the cloud, it could still be stolen:

Hi nospam,

FACT + LOGIC

FACT:
1. The facts are that the private photos were splashed all over the net.
2. The facts are that they were stored on the iCloud.

LOGIC:
3. One approach to use is "similar" to what the secret service used.
4. That logical approach is to use another layer of encryption

LOGIC:
A. Don't store private information on the cloud
B. If you must, then secure your private information (see below)

HINT:
*Encrypted container apps are free on all platforms other than on iOS.*

BTW, only you, nospam, "claim" that iOS has this capability, native:
o Does the iTunes app store have any free disk encryption container software?
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/ACvkdg_zvDI/tYfHGdpTBAAJ

I think I finally figured out why you habitually deny facts you simply don't like.
o What key trait distinguishes Apple Apologists from normal adults?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/yyNyGsFKPlQ

Essentially, adults generally accept obvious facts, so they quickly proceed
to the stage of the logical assessment of those obvious facts.

Since you habitually deny facts that no sentient adult denies, there must
be a _reason_ you habitually deny facts that you simply don't like.

I think perhaps, the reason you deny all facts you don't like, is that it's
your way of "filibustering" the adult discussion that normally ensues when
people agree on facts.

For example, Bill W. agrees with the obvious well-cited undeniable fact
that personal photos were splashed all over the net that came from the
cloud, so Bill could then instantly proceed to the adult logical discussion
of HOW to store photos on the cloud but REDUCE THE RISK of those photos
being splashed all over the net.

One logical assessment would be to store those photos, essentially, the
same way the Secret Service stored their data, which is in encrypted
containers (yes, I know the SS would have used hardware encryption most
likely, based on the motherboard hardware).

FACT:
1. The facts are that the private photos were splashed all over the net.
2. The facts are that they were stored on the iCloud.

LOGIC:
3. One approach to use is "similar" to what the secret service used.
4. That logical approach is to use another layer of encryption

Just like the secret service did.

In article , arlen holder
wrote:


even if it's not in the cloud, it could still be stolen:

Hi nospam,

FACT + LOGIC

FACT:
1. The facts are that the private photos were splashed all over the net.
2. The facts are that they were stored on the iCloud.

the facts are that people were phished and/or used easily guessed
passwords.

that's not the fault of apple/google/microsoft/dropbox/amazon/etc.

it's entirely user error.

unfortunately, there are people in this world who do stupid things, you
being the prime example.

o Does the iTunes app store have any free disk encryption container
software?

no need for that, since everything on ios is fully encrypted. it is,
for all intents, impossible to compromise a lost or stolen iphone,
outside of an incredibly lucky guess at the passcode.

only less capable products need that ****, which ends up being a hassle
to use, so few people bother.

On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 11:10:24 -0400, nospam wrote:

And yet, their personal pictures were taken from Apple's iCloud.

only after being phished or guessing the passwords.

Which is, by the way, why password software is useful:
o Do you have a working cross-platform PASSWD database for Windows, Linux, Mac, iOS, & Android
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/iIjcGCYnm-E/HV1B82nlBwAJ

those who used good passwords and didn't click links had *nothing* to
worry about because icloud itself was never compromised.

The facts are clear, no matter how much you _hate_ the facts, nospam.

and it's not icloud specific either. the data could have been on google
drive, microsoft onebox or any other service. use a bad password and
someone will get in.

Which is why it's good advice to not store personal data on the cloud.

it could also have been on a local hard drive. steal a laptop and the
data is for the taking. often, people sell drives with data still on
them. encrypt the hard drive and they're stopped in their tracks. all
they can do is reformat.

Which is why the personal data is stored encrypted on the local HDD.

Since all you see is the marketing side, you will never comprehend that
private personal data should not have been stored on the Internet.

nonsense.

I think I know why you brazenly deny all facts you simply don't like:
o What key trait distinguishes Apple Apologists from normal adults?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/yyNyGsFKPlQ

your personal information is online right now, including financial
data, credit reports, medical records, vehicle registration, real
estate and *much* more, and it's *not* all that difficult to obtain a
lot of it.

So you _still_ advise everyone to "just give up", as usual?

the password to at least one equifax server was admin/admin. really.

FACT: Apple has had security holes so big you can drive a bus through them.
LOGIC: IMHO, you have too much faith in Apple, nospam, IMHO.

For example, the admin password for Macs was recently "root" (really).
o *Anyone can hack into MacOS High Sierra simply by typing "root"!*
https://www.wired.com/story/macos-high-sierra-hack-root/

And that's just a single recent example of _many_ egregious security flaws
in _recent_ Apple software which proved they never test sufficiently.

Do you really want me to list (again) those recent security flaws?

On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 11:57:32 -0400, nospam wrote:

no need for that, since everything on ios is fully encrypted. it is,
for all intents, impossible to compromise a lost or stolen iphone,
outside of an incredibly lucky guess at the passcode.

Hi nospam,

FACT + LOGIC:

Marketing's job is to create imaginary belief systems.
o You clearly incessantly exhibit a very imaginary belief system

HINT: Not everyone is solely on iOS; most of us have multiple platforms.
o Only in your imaginary walled garden world is everyone only on iOS.

Even if you have iOS devices (which I have, as you know), you _still_ need
to pass data back and forth between your Windows, Mac, Linux, and Android
devices.

So the iOS encryption, for that purpose, doesn't even play a role!

You _claim_ that iOS natively has portable encrypted containers!
o iOS iTunes disk encryption container software
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/ACvkdg_zvDI/tYfHGdpTBAAJ

But you simply fabricated that imaginary functionality, nospam.
o Why?

I suspect you _hate_ facts about well known IOS encryption flaws so much
that you brazenly and incessantly simply fabricate wholly imaginary
functionality as you did in that thread about passing encrypted file
containers back and forth between the devices that people use in their
daily lives.

FACT + LOGI C:
HINT: Not everyone is solely on iOS, nor is everyone solely on Apple.

Apple iOS does _not_ natively have encrypted file container software.
o In fact, _no_ common consumer platform has this software native.

And yet, you claim that iOS does.
o Without a shred of fact to back up your brazen claims.

That! Is a fact.

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

Difference being (and we are seeing example of this now) they can
also
censor
things according to the winds of morality at time.

not if it's encrypted.

That depends who's encrypted it, or rather who can unencrypt it.

obviously the user

Which means no one can check it authenticity, which I;d say would be a
problem.

false.

even in the UK we have records/reports that are classified and can't be
viewed.
If you wanted to find out about the enimga machine you couldn't until
recently.

that's a different issue altogether.


But at least I have some control of that, myspace didn't seem to have much
control over what it stores they didn't even have a backup.

you have control no matter what.

Not after it's been delete or deamed missing.

even then.

those who put a *copy* of their data at myspace don't give a flying
**** that anything was lost because it was just a copy.

Depends how people see the word copy.
Most thought that once on-line it will always be there.

such people will learn the hard way why doing that is stupid.

some might even change their ways going forward, but most won't.
they'll just blame the service.

So any copy placed on-line can be lost, dleted or whatever the original user
has little if any control.

any copy anywhere can be lost, deleted or corrupted.

hard drives, ssds, dvds, etc. are not immune.

those who have only *one* copy of their data, regardless of where it
is, myspace, a hard drive or somewhere else, are at risk for data loss.
that's *their* doing, not the service or drive maker.

Yes and this applies even to on-line copies.
So what you need to do is have at least two seperate on-line copies.
Because ONE on-line copy can be deleted or corrupted at anytime.

at a minimum, three copies, with one off site (i.e., cloud).

the more the merrier.

the advantage of cloud services is that there can be a dozen or more
copies in geographically diverse data centers, and to lose everything
would require destruction of the entire planet, at which point, it
won't matter anymore.

if something does go wrong and someone loses data, they have only
themselves to blame,

Depends on the service they have subscribed to and what they expect.

nope.

which of course, they won't do because people
don't like taking responsibility for ****ing up. it's always someone
else's fault.

It's always easier to blame someone elese.

yep, except that it's usually not the someone else.






Seems my single CD has a longer life than a myspace storage.

one scratch disproves that.

No it doesn't due to error correction.

not if it's deep enough.


I bet some on here even have some 78s, wouldnt; be suprised if some had
wax
cyclinders that have lasted longer than myspace storage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-eF2FgwBFI

Looks fake to me, IIRC they weren't black and if he was handlening such a
rare item he'd at least be wearing gloves so the acid in his fingers damage
it.

whoosh.



Imagine if the magna carta had been uploaded to myspace,
it wouldn't have lasted 12 years, let alone 800+ years.

imagine if the magna carta was in a box in california and the wildfires
turned it to ash.

Or if we stored it on myspace.

myspace is immune to wildfires.

So are cave paintings, they have lasted 1000s of years.

except in earthquakes, landslides, etc.

In article , arlen holder
wrote:

Even if you have iOS devices (which I have, as you know), you _still_ need
to pass data back and forth between your Windows, Mac, Linux, and Android
devices.

go learn about encryption before you say more stupid stuff (not that
will stop you from doing so).

clue for you: ios devices regularly pass *encrypted* data between the
ios device and the cloud, the latter of which is *not* hosted on a rack
of iphones running ios.

In article , arlen holder
wrote:


And yet, their personal pictures were taken from Apple's iCloud.

only after being phished or guessing the passwords.

Which is, by the way, why password software is useful:

yep, but not everyone uses one and some even think they're a bad idea.

such people are first in line to be pwned.

On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 12:44:35 -0400, nospam wrote:

clue for you: ios devices regularly pass *encrypted* data between the
ios device and the cloud, the latter of which is *not* hosted on a rack
of iphones running ios.

Hi nospam,

LOGIC & FACT.

FACT:
o It's useful to store files in portable encrypted file containers, nospam.

FACT:
o The most common portable encrypted file container format, nospam...
o Is that which is read/write by Truecrypt/Veracrypt compatible software

FACT:
o Truecrypt/Veracrypt compatible software exists on all common platforms

FACT:
o However, of the five common consumer platforms,
o Only on iOS does free truecrypt compatible container software not exist

You don't appear to like those facts; but you not liking facts doesn't mean
that the facts aren't facts, nospam.

Normally adults have no problem agreeing on facts; so adults can therefore
spend their energy not on denying facts, but on discussion the logical
assessment of those facts.

LOGIC:
o A logical approach to passing private data among your Windows, Linux,
Mac, Android, and iOS devices, is to both store and pass that data on your
own private LAN, inside of encrypted file containers.

LOGIC:
o For those who wish to store their private data on the cloud, it's a
logical approach to store that private data inside those encrypted file
containers that you already use on your private LAN.

LOGIC:
o A useful benefit of encrypted file containers, for those who aren't
aware, is that they can be *nested*, which is sort of like how those wooden
Russian dolls are.

If you're forced at gunpoint to reveal the password, you can give them only
1 of 2 passwords, where they can not tell that you gave them the wrong
password!

But that's only a bonus (for those who need nested encryption containers).

HINT:
*None of this is native on iOS despite nospam's claims of imaginary functionality.*