Low light group event portrait

John McWilliams wrote:
Pat wrote:
On Jul 24, 1:42 pm, Paul Furman wrote:
I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which
will be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at a few
tables. I've agreed to do it but warned them that's really extraordinary
shooting conditions. I have a 50mm f/1.2 but that's too long for most
cases on crop frame D200, otherwise I have f/2 lenses at 28mm & 35mm and
a 20mm f/2.8 AF though that starts getting so wide it distorts the
people at the edges. Even a 10.5mm f/2.8 fisheye :-)

I suggested maybe turn on the lights for a few more formal group shots,
they don't seem to be planning to do any big prints, just wanting the
digital files for web or probably a small print in a corporate
newsletter or some such.

I don't have or know how to use external flash though I could try
reflecting the onboard flash with a white card at the ceiling.

I figure I'll do a custom WB setting and I'll bring a tripod though I
doubt that'll be useful for most of the candids. Maybe the 70-200/2.8 VR
could be tried for the VR at 70mm & further back for more candid stuff,
less of the photog in your face.

I probably should bring my laptop to check how it's working after the
first bit.

Any other suggestions? Should I back out & tell them to hire someone
else with flash because this is a hopeless assignment? I enjoy low light
shooting but this will be really rough.
First off, be careful when you white balance. You
don't want your
whites to be white. You want it to be very warm and red.

Nah, don't bother with WB other than to put it on auto,
as you're shooting RAW.
Dial down your flash and bounce it off the ceiling,
but consider
getting something a red, like red or yellow cellophane, and putting it
over your flash to put out a warmer light. You're on a budget so
you'll have to experiment a bit.

Wholly unnecessary shooting RAW.

I agree with John's comments above.

Use your star filter if you have one.
Use your tripod or monopod and get down to 1/30th to
get a bit more
light.

Only if you have to. With a big enough flash bounced off
ceiling, you may not have to go below say 1/200.

This one I also agree with, but it does need some
expansion.

The real trick is to adjust the amount of light provided
by the flash in relation to the light from the candles.
There is no set, cast in concrete, "right" ratio; rather there
are different effects from changing the ratio, and all of
them might be interesting.

To de-emphasize the candles, add more flash. With
enough, the candles won't even noticeable and might as
well not be there at all. For some shots, basically to
document who is there and what they were wearing at the
time, that's the ticket.

On the other end of the stick is of course a shot with
almost no flash. The trick there might be to take a
couple shots without flash to determine an exposure that
just barely keeps the candles within the top end of the
sensors dynamic range, and then add enough flash to
lighten up faces to make people recognizable. Or may
not that much! For a picture of the "ambiance" rather
than the people, use less flash.

Lots of creative opportunity there.

Note that one problem with using multiple flash units in
fixed locations, as I suggested earlier, is that you
cannot as easily adjust the amount of light from the
flash to get different lighting ratios from other
sources.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On Jul 25, 1:50 pm, Pat wrote:
First off, be careful when you white balance. You don't want your
whites to be white. You want it to be very warm and red.

Dial down your flash and bounce it off the ceiling, but consider
getting something a red, like red or yellow cellophane, and putting it
over your flash to put out a warmer light. You're on a budget so
you'll have to experiment a bit.

Use your star filter if you have one.

Use your tripod or monopod and get down to 1/30th to get a bit more
light.

Well done Pat - I was browsing down to see if anyone suggested gels or
cellophane on the flash. I've had some success with this idea (using
orange/yellow cellophane, never tried red), but you'll need to use the
flash with care (ie not much or it will look faked) and bounced -
depending on what is available. If you can get close to the natural
tungsten/candle colour, then it can work. But practice first!

I disagree with John here - balancing the flash colour *is* still
worthwhile when shooting raw. It isn't an overall colour cast that is
the problem, it is the colour *mix* - if you don't, different *areas*
will be getting different casts, and RAW doesn't help there unless you
are going to mask them out and deal with them separately -yeuch! The
fewer differently balanced light sources you have, the better.

"Paul Furman" wrote in message et...

I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which will be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at
a few tables. I've agreed to do it but warned them that's really extraordinary shooting conditions. I have a 50mm f/1.2 but that's
too long for most cases on crop frame D200, otherwise I have f/2 lenses at 28mm & 35mm and a 20mm f/2.8 AF though that starts
getting so wide it distorts the people at the edges. Even a 10.5mm f/2.8 fisheye :-)
[...]
--
Paul Furman Photography

I used to shoot often large groups of people in crowded rooms by assembling
them in one spot (no careful arranging necessary - just make sure all faces
are visible and the group ends are brought in far enough), with a seated row
in the front if necessary, with a 28mm or 35mm equivalent FL lens, up two
steps on a step ladder, with two on-camera flashes (one pointed *slightly* up,
to shade off the lower foreground [Nikon flashes work well for this, with soft
edge coverage roll-off], and the other pointed at the ceiling), with a low enough
shutter speed and wide enough aperture used to catch some ambient lighting
(the color differences don't hurt in this kind of shot - they add interest without
messing up overall color balance). Fix up the result the best you can for what
you want and deliver it on a CD along with the invoice (BTW, take at least 4
photos in fairly rapid succession - you may need to substitute heads to lose
closed eyes or bad expressions in the best overall image). Done.
--
David Ruether

http://www.donferrario.com/ruether
(For some laughs, see www.donferrario.com/ruether/menu.htm)

On 2007-07-24 10:42:05 -0700, Paul Furman said:

I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which
will be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at a few
tables. I've agreed to do it but warned them that's really
extraordinary shooting conditions. I have a 50mm f/1.2 but that's too
long for most cases on crop frame D200, otherwise I have f/2 lenses at
28mm & 35mm and a 20mm f/2.8 AF though that starts getting so wide it
distorts the people at the edges. Even a 10.5mm f/2.8 fisheye :-)

I suggested maybe turn on the lights for a few more formal group shots,
they don't seem to be planning to do any big prints, just wanting the
digital files for web or probably a small print in a corporate
newsletter or some such.

Then who cares about the quality? Pump up the ISO and take a very
grainy picture. That is the effect they want, anyway. And take a couple
with the fish eye. You might be surprised at how much people like it.

I would not worry much about edge distortion. You can correct some
distortion in Photoshop or just leave it.

As for candids, you really need an external flash, or the restaurant
lighting is going to make everybody look like Boris Karloff.

.


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

John McWilliams wrote:
Pat wrote:

First off, be careful when you white balance. You don't want your
whites to be white. You want it to be very warm and red.

Nah, don't bother with WB other than to put it on auto, as you're
shooting RAW.

I've found that to be less than true.

Good white balance while shooting works better; even if you can change
it in the raw converter.

On 2007-07-24 20:32:44 -0400, Paul Furman said:

Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
Paul Furman wrote:
Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

I appreciate & respect your experienced opinion but
would you do that for $300? I could rent some flashes
but that also seems awfully distracting to the group.

For off camera work buy some *old* used flash units!
$10 for the optical trigger and $20-30 for the flash.

I do have an ancient flash, I tried it on my D70 hot shoe a couple
times but was afraid of the voltage problem. I didn't know you could
get a trigger for $10 wow... hmm they are all over ebay "optical flash
trigger" for $5 plus $7 shipping (ebay is so weird) I have an old
tripod too.

Ancient flashes are mot going to cut it on the D70 if it is TTL These
older flashes were designed for camera systems that measured light
reflected off the film plane. Digital flash systems are totally
computer controlled. I have an Nikon N902 and and SB28 flash and a
D70s and an SB800. The SB800 works really well on the D70s and not so
well on the N90s. The SB28 works great on the SB28 and not so well on
the D70s unless I use the SB800 as the commander flash and the SB28 as
the slave... that works real well. An ancient flash if it uses its
on thyristor might work OK (i.e. no TTTL metering, but you have some
trial and error. The problem is the flash sync is much different on
digital than film cameras. the iTTL flash system in the Nikon digital
series is pretty awesome, but it does require you use the the current
generation of flashes. My advice, they are paying you 300 bucks,.
take your Visa/Mastecrard and go buy and SB800. Once you get your 300
bucks send the check to Visa and be done with it. Problem solved.
This flash is danged near fool proof.

Group photography under candlelight or dim restaurant lighting is
difficult. And is that what they are looking for? Personally I would
do a mix. Use flash to shoot groups at each table, afterward, arrange
all in a single group and use the SB800 and get a good a group photo..
the SB800 will handle a group of 20 well.. I have used it with my 20mm
F2.8 on my D70s with a group of 40 and it worked well. The room had an
off white ceiling and I used it a 70 degree bounce with the reflector
card.

Then walk around with your fastest lens and take some natural light
shots singles. pairs and small groups of friends.. just use a higher
ISO setting. The group will love it.
Just because the place is dimly lit doesn't mean your photos need to be
also dimly lit. In fact, the portrait photos should not be.




Nikon's SB-24 is a good example, or get a Nikon SB-26
that has a built in optical trigger.

I have a couple SB-24's, a Vivitar 283, and a couple of
no-name brand X things. (With anything except the Nikon
models you absolutely to not want to ever directly
trigger it from the camera unless you go to the effort
to first measure the voltage on the trigger to be
certain that it is low enough to not damage the camera.)

These things come in handy every now and then. Another
helpful thing is to visit a few "second hand" shops and
buy up a few $5 tripods to hold those off camera flash
units.

A lot depends on the particular restaurant. How evenly
lit it is, how large the room is, how high the ceiling
is, and what color the walls and ceiling are.

I was told they'd have 'many' candles... and I assume
there is at least some dim overhead light but who
knows....

...OK I looked into it & it's a private banquet room
with windows & venetian blinds and it starts at 5:30 so
there'll be plenty of light & the candles are kind of
redundant at that time unless the blinds are
closed. This isn't the room but:
http://www.sharpparkgc.com/pg/photos/sharp_park_golf_course/picture273.aspx

That doesn't look bad! The walls and ceiling are nice.
That will even out whatever lighting there is, whether
from a window, a flash, or light fixtures.

I suppose I should drop by & look but it doesn't sound like a dark room.

*Definitely* go take a few pictures in the room before
hand! And do it at about 6:00 PM.

If I was pursuing this kind of work as a career I would but it's kind
of more like a favor for friends. And it doesn't hurt to become
competent at this sort of thing.

What with candles and windows, and maybe or maybe not flash,
I'd be using manual exposure control and be "chimping" all
the way! Especially if you want the candles to look good in
at least some of the pictures.

Ya, I'll be chimping for sure!


--
Jim

Thanks Jim, good suggestions. You've all given me lots to think about.

Jim wrote:

Ancient flashes...SB800...

Group photography under candlelight or dim restaurant lighting is
difficult. And is that what they are looking for? Personally I would
do a mix.

Sounds like there will be good window light at the beginning so I'll do
a formal then & yes I guess the candlelight thing is part of their
vision so I'll do grainy mood shots later too.

Use flash to shoot groups at each table, afterward, arrange
all in a single group and use the SB800 and get a good a group photo..
the SB800 will handle a group of 20 well.. I have used it with my 20mm
F2.8 on my D70s with a group of 40 and it worked well. The room had an
off white ceiling and I used it a 70 degree bounce with the reflector card.

Then walk around with your fastest lens and take some natural light
shots singles. pairs and small groups of friends.. just use a higher
ISO setting. The group will love it.
Just because the place is dimly lit doesn't mean your photos need to be
also dimly lit. In fact, the portrait photos should not be.

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 22:37:34 -0700, Paul Furman wrote:
: Thanks Jim, good suggestions. You've all given me lots to think about.
:
: Jim wrote:
:
: Ancient flashes...SB800...
:
: Group photography under candlelight or dim restaurant lighting is
: difficult. And is that what they are looking for? Personally I would
: do a mix.
:
: Sounds like there will be good window light at the beginning so I'll do
: a formal then & yes I guess the candlelight thing is part of their
: vision so I'll do grainy mood shots later too.

That works if everybody shows up on time. But if it's the cocktail hour that
begins at 5:30, it may be considerably later before you can get a formal
picture of the whole group. Restaurants don't usually have very high ceilings;
I'd plan on augmenting the ambient lighting with bounce flash.

Bob

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:55:05 -0400, Pudentame wrote:
: John McWilliams wrote:
: Pat wrote:
:
: First off, be careful when you white balance. You don't want your
: whites to be white. You want it to be very warm and red.
:
: Nah, don't bother with WB other than to put it on auto, as you're
: shooting RAW.
:
: I've found that to be less than true.
:
: Good white balance while shooting works better; even if you can change
: it in the raw converter.

I've read (here, recently) that there's literally no difference between
getting the WB right and correcting it later. The assertion was that the
camera records exactly the same image, but sends along a parameter that
informs the raw converter of what the photographer intended. Changing that
parameter on the computer is no different from changing it on the camera.
(Unless you were going to do direct printing from the camera, which you
aren't.)

Bob

Robert Coe wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:55:05 -0400, Pudentame wrote:
: John McWilliams wrote:
: Pat wrote:
:
: First off, be careful when you white balance. You don't want your
: whites to be white. You want it to be very warm and red.
:
: Nah, don't bother with WB other than to put it on auto, as you're
: shooting RAW.
:
: I've found that to be less than true.
:
: Good white balance while shooting works better; even if you can change
: it in the raw converter.

I've read (here, recently) that there's literally no difference between
getting the WB right and correcting it later. The assertion was that the
camera records exactly the same image, but sends along a parameter that
informs the raw converter of what the photographer intended. Changing that
parameter on the computer is no different from changing it on the camera.
(Unless you were going to do direct printing from the camera, which you
aren't.)

I've read the opposite but still it's trivial in most cases. If the
lighting is consistent, it's really a time saver to use a preset/custom
WB but this is going to span from late afternoon through sunset so every
few minutes will be different.

But for discussion, I kind of like the idea of an intentionally warmer
WB for the candle light. For that, I guess I would shoot a custom WB
from a blue/green white card?

--
Paul Furman Photography
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com