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pure ammonium thiosulfate fixer



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 19th 04, 09:42 PM
Travis C. Porco
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Default pure ammonium thiosulfate fixer

Dear Readers--

I have a question:
is there anything wrong with the use of pure ammonium thiosulfate as a
fixer for pyro-developed film? (I use 35mm Tri-X mostly). I have some of the
"60% ammonium thiosulfate" made by Formulary.

Is it possible to use borax instead of sodium metaborate in mixing a
fixer? How much? Anchell & Troop list a recipe with sodium metaborate,
but not borax.

Thanks kindly.
  #4  
Old April 22nd 04, 08:17 PM
Richard Knoppow
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Default pure ammonium thiosulfate fixer


"Travis C. Porco" wrote in
message ...
Dear Readers--

I have a question:
is there anything wrong with the use of pure ammonium

thiosulfate as a
fixer for pyro-developed film? (I use 35mm Tri-X mostly).

I have some of the
"60% ammonium thiosulfate" made by Formulary.

Is it possible to use borax instead of sodium metaborate

in mixing a
fixer? How much? Anchell & Troop list a recipe with

sodium metaborate,
but not borax.

Thanks kindly.


I am not a believer in alkaline fixers. As far as
effectiveness of fixing the pH does not matter. If you don't
want to use acid fixer neutral fixer works just fine and
will preserve the stain image as well as an alkaline fixer.
Be careful not to confuse the desired stain image with
overall staining, which is not desirable. Pyro negatives
should be pretty much stain free in the clear areas and have
a proportional stain in the image. I think many of those who
complain of lack of stain are really looking at overall
staining.
Fixer needs to have sodium sulfite in it both to protect
the thiosulfate from oxidation and to prevent staining from
carried over developer which will remain active in neutral
or alkaline fixing baths for long enough to cause problems.
Sulfite is slightly alkaline anyway. You don't need much,
perhaps as little as 5 grams per liter of working solution.
Most acid fixers have about 15 grams per liter but need it
because the sulfite prevents decomposition of the
thiosulfate by the acid. Sodium metaborate is a poor buffer
despite Kodak's claims so Borax is actually a better choice
if you really want to increase the pH. Tri-X is similar to
T-Max in that it needs longer fixing than most other films.
Check the clearing time and fix for three times that time.
Use a two bath system to insure complete fixing, fix in each
bath for half the total time.
Ammonium thiosufate is not very stable in powder form so
it usually supplied as a 60% liquid concentrat.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA



  #5  
Old April 23rd 04, 12:33 AM
Travis C. Porco
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default pure ammonium thiosulfate fixer

Thanks kindly to you and the others who replied; I may try it both without
the sulfite and with it and see what happens. Is there a "standard" recipe
for ammonium thiosulfate/borax/sodium sulfite?

Also: Anchell & Troop are down on sodium thiosulfate. If you mix up a
developer with ammonium thiosulfate, sodium metaborate, and sodium sulfite,
it's still got a lot of sodium in it. Is it just good to have less sodium, or
is it good to have the ammonium present, or does it just plain not matter?

Final question. I've seen some bottles of Formulary TF-4 with a thick layer
of precipitate on the bottom. Does this indicate that the bottle is absolutely
no good, or could it be redissolved?

Thanks again!

In article . net,
Richard Knoppow wrote:

"Travis C. Porco" wrote in
message ...
Dear Readers--


I have a question:
is there anything wrong with the use of pure ammonium

thiosulfate as a
fixer for pyro-developed film? (I use 35mm Tri-X mostly).

I have some of the
"60% ammonium thiosulfate" made by Formulary.


Is it possible to use borax instead of sodium metaborate

in mixing a
fixer? How much? Anchell & Troop list a recipe with

sodium metaborate,
but not borax.


Thanks kindly.


I am not a believer in alkaline fixers. As far as
effectiveness of fixing the pH does not matter. If you don't
want to use acid fixer neutral fixer works just fine and
will preserve the stain image as well as an alkaline fixer.
Be careful not to confuse the desired stain image with
overall staining, which is not desirable. Pyro negatives
should be pretty much stain free in the clear areas and have
a proportional stain in the image. I think many of those who
complain of lack of stain are really looking at overall
staining.
Fixer needs to have sodium sulfite in it both to protect
the thiosulfate from oxidation and to prevent staining from
carried over developer which will remain active in neutral
or alkaline fixing baths for long enough to cause problems.
Sulfite is slightly alkaline anyway. You don't need much,
perhaps as little as 5 grams per liter of working solution.
Most acid fixers have about 15 grams per liter but need it
because the sulfite prevents decomposition of the
thiosulfate by the acid. Sodium metaborate is a poor buffer
despite Kodak's claims so Borax is actually a better choice
if you really want to increase the pH. Tri-X is similar to
T-Max in that it needs longer fixing than most other films.
Check the clearing time and fix for three times that time.
Use a two bath system to insure complete fixing, fix in each
bath for half the total time.
Ammonium thiosufate is not very stable in powder form so
it usually supplied as a 60% liquid concentrat.

  #6  
Old April 23rd 04, 01:25 AM
Patrick Gainer
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Posts: n/a
Default pure ammonium thiosulfate fixer



"Travis C. Porco" wrote:

Thanks kindly to you and the others who replied; I may try it both without
the sulfite and with it and see what happens. Is there a "standard" recipe
for ammonium thiosulfate/borax/sodium sulfite?

Also: Anchell & Troop are down on sodium thiosulfate. If you mix up a
developer with ammonium thiosulfate, sodium metaborate, and sodium sulfite,
it's still got a lot of sodium in it. Is it just good to have less sodium, or
is it good to have the ammonium present, or does it just plain not matter?

Final question. I've seen some bottles of Formulary TF-4 with a thick layer
of precipitate on the bottom. Does this indicate that the bottle is absolutely
no good, or could it be redissolved?

Thanks again!

That's the way it comes. Shake it well if you're only going to mix part
of it. When you dilute it 1+3 or more, it clears up.
  #7  
Old April 23rd 04, 06:06 AM
John
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Posts: n/a
Default pure ammonium thiosulfate fixer

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:33:52 +0000 (UTC),
(Travis C. Porco) wrote:

Is there a "standard" recipe
for ammonium thiosulfate/borax/sodium sulfite


Just mix F24 and leave out the bisulfite.


Regards,

John S. Douglas, Photographer -
http://www.darkroompro.com
Please remove the "_" when replying via email
  #8  
Old April 23rd 04, 07:04 AM
Norman Worth
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Default pure ammonium thiosulfate fixer

If you just want to fix a few films or prints, 180ml of 60% ammonium
thiosulfate in water works fine. But mix it just before use, it
deteriorates quickly. Sodium sulfite is used as a preservative. I like the
Kodak F-34 formula as a non-hardening fixer.

Water 700 ml
Ammonium thiosulfate, 58% 185 ml
Sodium sulfite, anh. 10 g
Sodium bisulfite 8.4 g
Water to make 1 l

It was originally intended as the fixer for Eastman 5247 motion picture
film, but it works very well for regular film and prints. The pH is only
6.5 - near neutral - so washing should not be a problem. If you must have
an alkline fixer, 200 ml of 60% ammonium thiosulfate plus 20 g of sodium
sulfite per liter will probably do, but I think a fixer should be slightly
acid to make the preservative work properly and to prevent unintended
stains.


"Travis C. Porco" wrote in message
...
Dear Readers--

I have a question:
is there anything wrong with the use of pure ammonium thiosulfate as a
fixer for pyro-developed film? (I use 35mm Tri-X mostly). I have some of

the
"60% ammonium thiosulfate" made by Formulary.

Is it possible to use borax instead of sodium metaborate in mixing a
fixer? How much? Anchell & Troop list a recipe with sodium metaborate,
but not borax.

Thanks kindly.



  #9  
Old April 23rd 04, 02:34 PM
John
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default pure ammonium thiosulfate fixer

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:06:19 -0500, John
wrote:

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:33:52 +0000 (UTC),
(Travis C. Porco) wrote:

Is there a "standard" recipe
for ammonium thiosulfate/borax/sodium sulfite


Just mix F24 and leave out the bisulfite.


Kodak's F-24 Fixer
Water @ 125F 750ml
Sod. Thiosulfate 240g
Sod.Sulfite 10g
Sod. Bisulfite 25g
Water to make 1.0L

Regards,

John S. Douglas, Photographer -
http://www.darkroompro.com
Please remove the "_" when replying via email
  #10  
Old April 23rd 04, 11:11 PM
Dan Quinn
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default pure ammonium thiosulfate fixer

(Travis C. Porco) wrote


Thanks kindly to you and the others who replied; I may try it both
without the sulfite and with it and see what happens. Is there a
"standard" recipe for ammonium thiosulfate/borax/sodium sulfite?


The most direct route to what you are after is a one-shot sodium
thiosulfate fix mixed at time of use. I don't work with pyro but from
my reading the S. Thio. fix is much used. The ph of Photo. Formulary
S. Thio has tested 6.8. Try one ounce of the anhydrous in whatever
volume of solution needed.
The one fluid ounce of A. Thio suggested still stands. The nice
thing about S. Thio. is it's keeping qualities. A bottle with tight
lid should keep for years. To boost it's or A. Thio's ph to about
10 add a 10th part of S. Sulfite.
I've worked with S. Thio. straight and with S. Sulfite and with
A. Thio. straight. I use fixer, film or prints, one-shot; always
fresh fix. I've determind the amount of S. Thio. needed with Pan F+
to be 15 grams. The one ounce suggested for Tri X should be plenty;
so much silver, so much chemistry.


Also: Anchell & Troop are down on sodium thiosulfate. If you mix up
a developer with ammonium thiosulfate, sodium metaborate, and sodium
sulfite, it's still got a lot of sodium in it. Is it just good to have
less sodium, or is it good to have the ammonium present, or does it
just plain not matter?


Sodium in no way will spoil a fix. It makes for a slower fix. Some
of A&T must be taken guardedly.


Final question. I've seen some bottles of Formulary TF-4 with a
thick layer of precipitate on the bottom. Does this indicate that
the bottle is absolutely no good, or could it be redissolved?


TF-4 is a B. Troop formulated alkaline RAPID, A. Thio., fix. I'd be
very wary of those bottles. I think that must be sulfer on the bottom.
With the lid off gently warm and see what happens.
Dan
 




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