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#11
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Rule of Thirds?
Steve wrote:
On 21 Nov 2003 23:26:46 GMT, Toke Eskildsen wrote: However, I'd like to know if one of the rules are better than the other, if we disregard the extra time it takes to calculate the Golden Section? Oh come on, don't you think it all depends on the picture? How can you possibly debate the difference between 33% and 38% without regard to what's in the frame? With that reasoning in mind, we might as well invent an arbitrary rule: "place any object of importance aproximately 10% from the left edge of the image", then say that that rule is just as valid as the other two, depending on what's in the frame. It's true, but the advice has little value as a general rule of thumb. Frankly, if you're going to impose such an arbitrary blanket rule on all pictures then any number will work as well (or as badly) as any other. These rules are *approximations*, rules of thumb [...] Now, with fear of being unthankful for your help, I'll quote from my original posting: "I know that both the Rule of Thirds and the Golden Section are suggestions only, but I'd like to know if I generally should stick to the Golden Section or if the Rule of Thirds is just as valid?" I expect that there's a reason that these rules of thumbs are given: Probably because a lot of people like such compositions. I expect that they _generally_ work better than the 10% rule I just pulled out of my hat. There are several rules of thumb for composition. "Make room for movement" for example. What makes the Golden Section and the Rule of Thirds interesting in this context is that they essentially tell the same: "let straight lines and points of interest intersect with the guides" - they only differ somewhat in where those guides should be. Choosing between 33% and 38% is pseudo-precision at best. That is true the moment you want to apply the rule of thumb to a specific picture, but not if you're trying to establish what the rule of thumb should be. -- Toke Eskildsen - http://ekot.dk/ |
#12
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Rule of Thirds?
Bob Sull wrote:
I've been in this for almost 30 years and this is the first I have heard ofthe "golden Section" too. The "Rule of Thirds" has been around longer than I have..... This seems to be a cultural thing. I've discussed this in a danish photo newsgroup and I got the exact opposite reaction: Veteran photographers that say that they've "always" known about the Golden Section, but only recently learned about the Rule of Thirds. |
#13
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Rule of Thirds?
Angela M. Cable wrote:
I don't know if this would help or not, I wrote this a while back for some folks having trouble with artistic cropping: http://www.fortunecity.com/westwood/...ials/cropping/ Ah yes, that looks a lot like what I'm experimenting with, except that I'd like to combine the frame with the grid lines. |
#14
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Rule of Thirds?
Toke Eskildsen apparently said:
That is true the moment you want to apply the rule of thumb to a specific picture, but not if you're trying to establish what the rule of thumb should be. Whichever rule you choose, either Rule of Thirds or Golden Section, there will be those who say you chose poorly. Both are exactly what you are looking, "rules of thumb" and are just suggestions; rules made to be broken. Either is valid some of the time, and neither is valid all the time. If it's any help, I was taught the Rule of Thirds something like thirty years ago, and the first time I heard of the Golden Section being used in this way was probably less than one year ago. For my money, Thirds is a lot easier to implement... |
#15
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Rule of Thirds?
Toke Eskildsen writes:
Angela M. Cable wrote: I don't know if this would help or not, I wrote this a while back for some folks having trouble with artistic cropping: http://www.fortunecity.com/westwood/...ials/cropping/ Ah yes, that looks a lot like what I'm experimenting with, except that I'd like to combine the frame with the grid lines. I'm not sure if you noticed, but the Web site posted by someone earlier had a template of the golden section which they suggested printing onto a transparency (I have 8 x 10 inch overhead transparency film); you put the transparency with the template over photographs of nautilus shells and whatever to see if you can find a match. You might consider that as an aid to experimentation, although it is _not_ a frame for cropping. -- Philip Stripling | email to the replyto address is presumed Legal Assistance on the Web | spam and read later. email to philip@ http://www.PhilipStripling.com/ | my domain is read daily. |
#16
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Rule of Thirds?
Vaidd wrote:
In the reference you gave http://graphicssoft.about.com/librar...uleofthirds.ht m it says "Art/Technology Guide Sharon Silva explains The Golden Section which is the basis for the rule of thirds" Yes, but I was unsure if it was the basis as in "the Rule of Thirds is an easy version of the Golden Section" or as in "the Golden Section inspired the Rule of Thirds which photographers generally seems to find more pleasing". Some digging around seems to support the easy version idea though: http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-...?msg_id=003HNO http://goldennumber.net/art.htm Personally I'd stick with the Golden Section if you're making a frame/guide for an image. In a camera viewfinder though the rule of thirds is easier to apply. That's what I will do too. |
#17
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Rule of Thirds?
Toke Eskildsen wrote:
Angela M. Cable wrote: I don't know if this would help or not, I wrote this a while back for some folks having trouble with artistic cropping: http://www.fortunecity.com/westwood/...ials/cropping/ Ah yes, that looks a lot like what I'm experimenting with, except that I'd like to combine the frame with the grid lines. You know, I tried building a vector preset shape to do just that, I can't remember now what the problem was with it, but I couldn't get it to work properly. It might be possible, in PSP8 at least, to do it with some advanced Python scripting. You'd have to talk to somebody that knows a whole lot more about Python though than me :-) -- Angela M. Cable PSP8 Private Beta Tester PSP Tutorial Links: http://www.psplinks.com 5th Street Studio, free graphics, websets and mo http://www.fortunecity.com/westwood/alaia/354/ |
#18
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Rule of Thirds?
Vaidd wrote:
See http://www.psppower.com/2002may/crop2.htm under dynamic cropping. This relates the rule of thirds to the golden ratio (section) Note 'the rule of thirds' as given above does not mean dividing the sides equally into three. It gives a third placement of the lines, even farther from the center than the Rule of Third is. Now I'm confused. |
#19
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Rule of Thirds?
Toke Eskildsen wrote:
Vaidd wrote: See http://www.psppower.com/2002may/crop2.htm under dynamic cropping. This relates the rule of thirds to the golden ratio (section) Note 'the rule of thirds' as given above does not mean dividing the sides equally into three. It gives a third placement of the lines, even farther from the center than the Rule of Third is. Now I'm confused. He's mixing his terminology. What he's doing is the Golden Section. Keep in mind that the Golden Section refers to a very specific rectangle, 1:1.618. So unless your image is a rectangle of that proportion the Golden Section isn't going to work out exactly in any case. 35mm film is 24x36mm, which works out to 1:1.5, close but not the specific rectangle you need for a Golden Section. I expect that this is why the Rule of Thirds came about, you can apply it to *any* rectangle. -- Angela M. Cable PSP8 Private Beta Tester PSP Tutorial Links: http://www.psplinks.com 5th Street Studio, free graphics, websets and mo http://www.fortunecity.com/westwood/alaia/354/ |
#20
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Rule of Thirds?
Angela M. Cable wrote:
[Snip http://www.psppower.com/2002may/crop2.htm] He's mixing his terminology. What he's doing is the Golden Section. Keep in mind that the Golden Section refers to a very specific rectangle, 1:1.618. That is correct, but that is not what he does. If we divide a line in two parts and compare the parts, we have that - Mathematical center is 1:1 - The Golden Section is 1:1.618... - The Rule of Thirds is 1:2 He doesn't give his measurements and it's been too long before I learned about geometrics, but a quick measure gives approximately - PSPPower: 1:2.57 That is so far off that I guess I've made an error somewhere. So unless your image is a rectangle of that proportion the Golden Section isn't going to work out exactly in any case. He claims that it should - the rectangle won't be golden, but the golden areas can still be found. 35mm film is 24x36mm, which works out to 1:1.5, close but not the specific rectangle you need for a Golden Section. I expect that this is why the Rule of Thirds came about, you can apply it to *any* rectangle. As I see it, the Golden Section can still be used in a non-golden rectangle: The Golden Mean in itself is about dividing lines. But in order to get a "true" Golden Section, the whole crop needs to be a Golden Rectangle. -- Toke Eskildsen - http://ekot.dk/ |
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