A question for Applefans

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

What is the reason for the two different fittings? Both are obtaining
and converting power from the same wall plug.

Time. The first ipods used firewire, but when USB got fast enough they
used USB 2 in a 30 pin connector dock.

nope.

the dock connector was a clever way to combine firewire, usb, audio
in/out, video out, remote and several other things into one convenient
plug.

competing devices had multiple plugs, which was a pain to use.

over time, some of the functions in the dock connector became obsolete
(e.g., firewire syncing), so the pins were repurposed. after ten years,
the limitations of the design were becoming a problem, so apple created
lightning.

lightning does away with dedicated pins and has a dynamically
configurable connector. it's very forward thinking.

As with TVs connectors change the old phono is now pretty much redundant and
replaced with VGA, SCART or HDMI.

yep, tvs change connectors too. so do computers.

it's called progress.

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

What is the reason for the two different fittings? Both are obtaining
and converting power from the same wall plug.

Time. The first ipods used firewire, but when USB got fast enough they
used USB 2 in a 30 pin connector dock.

nope.

the dock connector was a clever way to combine firewire, usb, audio
in/out, video out, remote and several other things into one convenient
plug.

competing devices had multiple plugs, which was a pain to use.

they got rid of firewire because they wanted PC users to buy iPods.

nope.

apple came up with the dock connector so that ipods could have *both*
firewire *and* usb.

apple *added* usb support because usb was more common on pcs, however,
savvy pc users had firewire.

firewire sync support was dropped because the chipset that apple was
using no longer included firewire and it wasn't worth the expense or
space to add an additional chip for firewire sync when usb worked fine.


charging over firewire remained for a few more years (it was much
faster) but was later dropped because apple needed to repurpose some of
the pins.

You could boot from an early iPod into a version of linux, not that I could
see th point but it was fun.

there is no point nor was it fun. it was a complete waste of time.

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

Time. The first ipods used firewire, but when USB got fast enough
they used USB 2 in a 30 pin connector dock.

nope.

the dock connector was a clever way to combine firewire, usb, audio
in/out, video out, remote and several other things into one convenient
plug.

competing devices had multiple plugs, which was a pain to use.

they got rid of firewire because they wanted PC users to buy iPods.

nope.

apple came up with the dock connector so that ipods could have *both*
firewire *and* usb.

Why would they need both ?

to give the user a choice.

firewire was by far the better option but pcs didn't typically have it.

apple *added* usb support because usb was more common on pcs, however,
savvy pc users had firewire.

we're to many of themn were there. Not the sort that would buy ipods as
firewiore cards for PCS were espensive additions.

firewire cards weren't that expensive and it was useful for a variety
of things, namely digital video and more reliable external hard drives
(especially bus-powered).

firewire sync support was dropped because the chipset that apple was
using no longer included firewire and it wasn't worth the expense or
space to add an additional chip for firewire sync when usb worked fine.

The why didn't they use USB to start with ?

because it wouldn't have worked.

firewire is one major reason why the ipod was a step above the other
crappy mp3 players that existed at the time. syncing was *much* faster
than usb1, letting people sync their ipod in minutes rather than hours
or days.

another reason is that usb sources a *lot* less power than firewire, so
little in fact that it wasn't enough to charge a 3rd gen ipod. although
you could sync over usb, you *had* to use firewire to charge, either
from a firewire port (but then why use usb) or the included firewire
power adapter.

the 4th gen ipod is when ipods started charging from usb, although not
as quickly as firewire, which is why most dock accessories continued to
use firewire to charge.

charging over firewire remained for a few more years (it was much
faster) but was later dropped because apple needed to repurpose some of
the pins.

where did you get that story from I heard that they dropped firewire becaus
of the expense and so few PCS had them and if they were going to make ipods
succsessful they needed PC users to buy them.

apple and portalplayer.

You could boot from an early iPod into a version of linux, not that I
could
see th point but it was fun.

there is no point nor was it fun. it was a complete waste of time.

but it could be done.

so can smashing it with a hammer, which is actually more satisfying and
just as useful as trying to install linux on an ipod.

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

they got rid of firewire because they wanted PC users to buy iPods.

nope.

apple came up with the dock connector so that ipods could have *both*
firewire *and* usb.

Why would they need both ?

to give the user a choice.

since then they have decided the user shouldn;t have that choice.

no they didn't.

users decided that they wanted usb versus firewire. also, the maker of
the chips apple was using decided that it was not worthwhile to include
firewire at the expense of other features.

firewire was by far the better option

at teh time yes.

it still is, but firewire is last year's technology.

but pcs didn't typically have it.

which is why they moved to USB, and brought out itunes for PC

nope.

we're to many of themn were there. Not the sort that would buy ipods as
firewiore cards for PCS were espensive additions.

firewire cards weren't that expensive.

They were for what they were, they cost hundred.

nope.

and it was useful for a variety
of things, namely digital video and more reliable external hard drives
(especially bus-powered).

which few PC users bothered with.

more than a few but not overly widespread.

The why didn't they use USB to start with ?

because it wouldn't have worked.

USB 1.0 was too slow that was the reason.

the main reason.

firewire is one major reason why the ipod was a step above the other
crappy mp3 players that existed at the time.

And teh display and being more user friendly.

the user interface was another reason, however, even the best interface
is not going to fix taking hours to sync. nobody wants that ****.

syncing was *much* faster
than usb1, letting people sync their ipod in minutes rather than hours
or days.

Yep, which was also a problme for the earl;y plays but PC users didn;t really
notice as they had nothing to compare their 256MB sticks with.

of course they noticed, but the time difference was not much when
someone is only syncing a dozen or so songs.

another reason is that usb sources a *lot* less power than firewire,

at the time yes, but it nwasn;t a majopr problem for the standard MP3 players.

the other mp3 players didn't have as big of a battery nor did they last
as long.

so
little in fact that it wasn't enough to charge a 3rd gen ipod. although
you could sync over usb, you *had* to use firewire to charge, either
from a firewire port (but then why use usb) or the included firewire
power adapter.

anther good reaason to go to USB as USB2 had the power.

nope. usb 1 and usb 2 source the same amount of power, which was a
measly 500ma, which at 5v is just 2.5 watts.

firewire can source as much as 48 watts, although most computers
sourced 15-20 watts.

the 4th gen ipod is when ipods started charging from usb, although not
as quickly as firewire, which is why most dock accessories continued to
use firewire to charge.

So why go to USB, the reason was PC users.

partly.

the main reason, as i said, was that the manufacturer of the parts
apple was using dropped support for firewire.

apple could have added an additional chipset for firewire but that
would have cost more and it would also take up much needed space that
could be used for other and more important purposes.

where did you get that story from I heard that they dropped firewire
becaus
of the expense and so few PCS had them and if they were going to make
ipods
succsessful they needed PC users to buy them.

apple and portalplayer.

I heard it from the medai not directly from aplpe who I doubt made such a
statement.

you're taking the word of the media over the manufacturer of the
related parts? seriously?

You could boot from an early iPod into a version of linux, not that I
could
see th point but it was fun.

there is no point nor was it fun. it was a complete waste of time.

but it could be done.

so can smashing it with a hammer, which is actually more satisfying and
just as useful as trying to install linux on an ipod.

You could start up a Mac using an ipod which was interesting.

so what?

that was nothing more than putting the ipod in disk mode.

macs have been booting off external hard drives for years, something
windows systems still don't get right.

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 13:05:16 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

they got rid of firewire because they wanted PC users to buy iPods.

nope.

apple came up with the dock connector so that ipods could have *both*
firewire *and* usb.

Why would they need both ?

to give the user a choice.

since then they have decided the user shouldn;t have that choice.

no they didn't.

users decided that they wanted usb versus firewire. also, the maker of
the chips apple was using decided that it was not worthwhile to include
firewire at the expense of other features.

firewire was by far the better option

at teh time yes.

it still is, but firewire is last year's technology.

but pcs didn't typically have it.

which is why they moved to USB, and brought out itunes for PC

nope.

we're to many of themn were there. Not the sort that would buy ipods as
firewiore cards for PCS were espensive additions.

firewire cards weren't that expensive.

They were for what they were, they cost hundred.

nope.

Yep. I know. I bought one for my old (old) W2000 machine.


and it was useful for a variety
of things, namely digital video and more reliable external hard drives
(especially bus-powered).

which few PC users bothered with.

more than a few but not overly widespread.

The why didn't they use USB to start with ?

because it wouldn't have worked.

USB 1.0 was too slow that was the reason.

the main reason.

firewire is one major reason why the ipod was a step above the other
crappy mp3 players that existed at the time.

And teh display and being more user friendly.

the user interface was another reason, however, even the best interface
is not going to fix taking hours to sync. nobody wants that ****.

syncing was *much* faster
than usb1, letting people sync their ipod in minutes rather than hours
or days.

Yep, which was also a problme for the earl;y plays but PC users didn;t really
notice as they had nothing to compare their 256MB sticks with.

of course they noticed, but the time difference was not much when
someone is only syncing a dozen or so songs.

another reason is that usb sources a *lot* less power than firewire,

at the time yes, but it nwasn;t a majopr problem for the standard MP3 players.

the other mp3 players didn't have as big of a battery nor did they last
as long.

so
little in fact that it wasn't enough to charge a 3rd gen ipod. although
you could sync over usb, you *had* to use firewire to charge, either
from a firewire port (but then why use usb) or the included firewire
power adapter.

anther good reaason to go to USB as USB2 had the power.

nope. usb 1 and usb 2 source the same amount of power, which was a
measly 500ma, which at 5v is just 2.5 watts.

firewire can source as much as 48 watts, although most computers
sourced 15-20 watts.

the 4th gen ipod is when ipods started charging from usb, although not
as quickly as firewire, which is why most dock accessories continued to
use firewire to charge.

So why go to USB, the reason was PC users.

partly.

the main reason, as i said, was that the manufacturer of the parts
apple was using dropped support for firewire.

apple could have added an additional chipset for firewire but that
would have cost more and it would also take up much needed space that
could be used for other and more important purposes.

where did you get that story from I heard that they dropped firewire
becaus
of the expense and so few PCS had them and if they were going to make
ipods
succsessful they needed PC users to buy them.

apple and portalplayer.

I heard it from the medai not directly from aplpe who I doubt made such a
statement.

you're taking the word of the media over the manufacturer of the
related parts? seriously?

You could boot from an early iPod into a version of linux, not that I
could
see th point but it was fun.

there is no point nor was it fun. it was a complete waste of time.

but it could be done.

so can smashing it with a hammer, which is actually more satisfying and
just as useful as trying to install linux on an ipod.

You could start up a Mac using an ipod which was interesting.

so what?

that was nothing more than putting the ipod in disk mode.

macs have been booting off external hard drives for years, something
windows systems still don't get right.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

we're to many of themn were there. Not the sort that would buy ipods as
firewiore cards for PCS were espensive additions.

firewire cards weren't that expensive.

They were for what they were, they cost hundred.

nope.

Yep. I know. I bought one for my old (old) W2000 machine.

a sample size of one means nothing.

there are/were firewire cards for much less than $100.

here's what's available today:
$13
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815283035
$19
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815166018

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

Yes, which is why they removed firewire on ipods.
The majority of prospective users had USB few had firewire so apple decide to
remove FW on ipods partly due to the cost of the FW interface,

apple had no choice because the parts they were using no longer had
firewire support. how many times do i have to tell you that.

they have done
the same with the iMac and powerbooks.

apple *never* removed firewire from powerbooks. every powerbook since
pismo, when firewire debuted, has firewire.

some recent macs no longer have firewire because usb 3 and thunderbolt
are much faster, making firewire no longer needed.

why would anyone want to use an old outdated technology when better
options exist?

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

Yes, which is why they removed firewire on ipods.
The majority of prospective users had USB few had firewire so apple
decide to
remove FW on ipods partly due to the cost of the FW interface,

apple had no choice because the parts they were using no longer had
firewire support. how many times do i have to tell you that.

because it wasn't true.

it absolutely is true.

look at the chipset in the 5th gen ipod (aka video ipod) versus the
previous 4th gen. one chipset has firewire support and the other does
not.

that means the only way for the 5th gen to have firewire sync would be
to add *another* chip and it wasn't worth it.

Sony were using their version called ilink on there
video cameras. Apple were the ones pushing FW, it'd be strange for them to
push it when they knew the company making the device no longer had FW
support.

this has nothing whatsoever to do with sony or video cameras.

some recent macs no longer have firewire because usb 3 and thunderbolt
are much faster, making firewire no longer needed.

Most haven't needed it since USB2

nonsense. usb2 is a little slower than firewire. most people consider
them equivalent, although firewire definitely has the edge when pushed
hard, plus it can source a lot more current.

however, that's yesterday's news. usb3 and thunderbolt blow away
firewire, as well as usb2.

nospam wrote:
Whisky-dave wrote:
Attribution = ??
some recent macs no longer have firewire because usb 3 and
thunderbolt are much faster, making firewire no longer needed.

Most haven't needed it since USB2

nonsense.

Because bandwidth isn't the only parameter; there's also power
(as was later mentioned).

usb2 is a little slower than firewire. most people consider
them equivalent, although firewire definitely has the edge
when pushed hard, ...

I can recall doing a performance test with a too-high-dpi scan
of a 35mm slide on my then-new Epson scanner which had both USB2
& FW400; the file size turned out to be ~1GB, and the time for
job completion was IIRC roughly 30% faster when it was hooked up
with FW400 instead of USB2.

And with FW800 which came later, it did a pretty good job
on external hard drive performance too...

however, that's yesterday's news. usb3 and thunderbolt blow
away firewire, as well as usb2.

Historically, FW became stagnant, even though there were
faster-than-FW800 chipsets developed (FW1600, FW3200); don't
really know the real reasons why (ie, technical vs business
politics, etc), although the lack of market uptake outside
of Apple was probably a not-insignificant factor.


-hh

On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 10:29:44 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

we're to many of themn were there. Not the sort that would buy ipods as
firewiore cards for PCS were espensive additions.

firewire cards weren't that expensive.

They were for what they were, they cost hundred.

nope.

Yep. I know. I bought one for my old (old) W2000 machine.

a sample size of one means nothing.

It's a sample size of two, and two physically separated by almost the
maximum possible distance. It's reasonable to suppose my and
Whisky-Dave's' experience was representative of the prices at the
time.

there are/were firewire cards for much less than $100.

There weren't then. Otherwise I would have bought one.

here's what's available today:
$13
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815283035
$19
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815166018

Which is totally irrelevant to the prices of 15 years ago. Remember we
are talking about when Firewire was new and USB 2 devices were just a
glimmer on the horizon for most of us.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens