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FZ30 battery



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 11th 06, 08:18 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.zlr
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Default FZ30 battery

Paul Allen "paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net" wrote:

SMS wrote:
Paul Allen wrote:

snip

It's too
bad NiMH cells can't match the size, weight, and power
density characteristics of Li-ion cells, because NiMH's have
a lot of other advantages.


What might those be? The size, weight, and power density advantages of
Li-Ion are just three of the many advantages.


The major advantages of Li-Ion a

1. Much lower self-discharge rate (except for Sanyo Eneloop NiMH
batteries)

2. Higher maximum number of charge/discharge cycles

3. Higher energy density in terms of both weight and volume

4. Far, far better low-temperature performance

5. Lower cost, when you factor in the higher energy density, and the
maximum number of charge/discharge cycles

6. Protection circuitry integral to the battery pack, rather than
integral to the camera

7. Accurate charge level indicator due to linear voltage decline
proportional to charge level

8. Lower maintenance.

9. Much better selection of higher-end cameras use Li-Ion batteries.

10. No problems with battery doors that are part of the charging circuit
(battery doors are the most often replaced part of digital cameras).



NiMH rechargeable batteries have the following advantages over Li-Ion
rechargeable batteries:

1. Faster charging with high rate chargers

2. Ability to use disposable AA batteries if NiMH AA batteries are
discharged and no charger is available

3. Longer shelf life


Sounds like biased li-ion evangelism to me. Suit yourself.


I don't see any "evangelism". What do you perceive to the the advantages of
NiMH?

Paul Allen


--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
  #22  
Old April 11th 06, 04:30 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.zlr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FZ30 battery

Paul Allen wrote:
SMS wrote:
Paul Allen wrote:

snip

It's too
bad NiMH cells can't match the size, weight, and power
density characteristics of Li-ion cells, because NiMH's have
a lot of other advantages.


What might those be? The size, weight, and power density advantages of
Li-Ion are just three of the many advantages.


The major advantages of Li-Ion a

1. Much lower self-discharge rate (except for Sanyo Eneloop NiMH
batteries)

2. Higher maximum number of charge/discharge cycles

3. Higher energy density in terms of both weight and volume

4. Far, far better low-temperature performance

5. Lower cost, when you factor in the higher energy density, and the
maximum number of charge/discharge cycles

6. Protection circuitry integral to the battery pack, rather than
integral to the camera

7. Accurate charge level indicator due to linear voltage decline
proportional to charge level

8. Lower maintenance.

9. Much better selection of higher-end cameras use Li-Ion batteries.

10. No problems with battery doors that are part of the charging
circuit (battery doors are the most often replaced part of digital
cameras).



NiMH rechargeable batteries have the following advantages over Li-Ion
rechargeable batteries:

1. Faster charging with high rate chargers

2. Ability to use disposable AA batteries if NiMH AA batteries are
discharged and no charger is available

3. Longer shelf life


Sounds like biased li-ion evangelism to me. Suit yourself.


I see, so you can't point out any inaccuracies in those statements, and
you can't point out the "a lot of other advantages" that you stated existed.

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need
for illusion is deep. Saul Bellow

Steve

  #23  
Old April 11th 06, 05:06 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.zlr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FZ30 battery

J. Clarke wrote:
Paul Allen "paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net" wrote:

SMS wrote:
Paul Allen wrote:

snip

It's too
bad NiMH cells can't match the size, weight, and power
density characteristics of Li-ion cells, because NiMH's have
a lot of other advantages.
What might those be? The size, weight, and power density advantages of
Li-Ion are just three of the many advantages.


The major advantages of Li-Ion a

1. Much lower self-discharge rate (except for Sanyo Eneloop NiMH
batteries)

2. Higher maximum number of charge/discharge cycles

3. Higher energy density in terms of both weight and volume

4. Far, far better low-temperature performance

5. Lower cost, when you factor in the higher energy density, and the
maximum number of charge/discharge cycles

6. Protection circuitry integral to the battery pack, rather than
integral to the camera

7. Accurate charge level indicator due to linear voltage decline
proportional to charge level

8. Lower maintenance.

9. Much better selection of higher-end cameras use Li-Ion batteries.

10. No problems with battery doors that are part of the charging circuit
(battery doors are the most often replaced part of digital cameras).



NiMH rechargeable batteries have the following advantages over Li-Ion
rechargeable batteries:

1. Faster charging with high rate chargers

2. Ability to use disposable AA batteries if NiMH AA batteries are
discharged and no charger is available

3. Longer shelf life

Sounds like biased li-ion evangelism to me. Suit yourself.


I don't see any "evangelism".


Excuse me? I should prefer proprietary batteries because the selection
of high-end cameras using them is wider, or because of battery doors?
Li-ion batteries have lower maintenance, how??? Li-ion batteries are
really less expensive if you factor in things that don't matter?

Li-ion battery technology certainly has some advantages. Some people
over-state the case in their zeal to make a conversion.

What do you perceive to the the advantages of
NiMH?


The ones that weren't listed, and that matter most to me: They're
less expensive and come in one standard size. Until the camera
makers get together on one or two standard li-ion battery sizes,
I'll prefer AA batteries. (And my next camera will most likely
use a proprietary battery, because battery type is not the
most important factor in choosing a camera.)

Paul Allen
  #24  
Old April 11th 06, 05:53 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.zlr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FZ30 battery

Paul Allen "paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net" wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:
Paul Allen "paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net" wrote:

SMS wrote:
Paul Allen wrote:

snip

It's too
bad NiMH cells can't match the size, weight, and power
density characteristics of Li-ion cells, because NiMH's have
a lot of other advantages.
What might those be? The size, weight, and power density advantages of
Li-Ion are just three of the many advantages.


The major advantages of Li-Ion a

1. Much lower self-discharge rate (except for Sanyo Eneloop NiMH
batteries)

2. Higher maximum number of charge/discharge cycles

3. Higher energy density in terms of both weight and volume

4. Far, far better low-temperature performance

5. Lower cost, when you factor in the higher energy density, and the
maximum number of charge/discharge cycles

6. Protection circuitry integral to the battery pack, rather than
integral to the camera

7. Accurate charge level indicator due to linear voltage decline
proportional to charge level

8. Lower maintenance.

9. Much better selection of higher-end cameras use Li-Ion batteries.

10. No problems with battery doors that are part of the charging
circuit (battery doors are the most often replaced part of digital
cameras).



NiMH rechargeable batteries have the following advantages over Li-Ion
rechargeable batteries:

1. Faster charging with high rate chargers

2. Ability to use disposable AA batteries if NiMH AA batteries are
discharged and no charger is available

3. Longer shelf life
Sounds like biased li-ion evangelism to me. Suit yourself.


I don't see any "evangelism".


Excuse me? I should prefer proprietary batteries because the selection
of high-end cameras using them is wider, or because of battery doors?


Do you deny that either of these is a true statement?

Li-ion batteries have lower maintenance, how???


Whether NiMH batteries benefit from the occasional deep discharge like NiCD
do is debateable. But if they do then then need it.

Li-ion batteries are
really less expensive if you factor in things that don't matter?


How does life-cycle cost not matter? If a lithium ion battery costs twice
as much but is good for three times as many cycles then it's cheaper in the
long run.

Li-ion battery technology certainly has some advantages. Some people
over-state the case in their zeal to make a conversion.


"Conversion" is not possible. If you think that someone is trying to
"convert" you then you need to put a few more layers on your tinfoil hat.

What do you perceive to the the advantages of
NiMH?


The ones that weren't listed, and that matter most to me: They're
less expensive and come in one standard size.


Less expensive is debatable unless you consider only purchase price and not
life-cycle cost. The standard size was mentioned.

Until the camera
makers get together on one or two standard li-ion battery sizes,
I'll prefer AA batteries. (And my next camera will most likely
use a proprietary battery, because battery type is not the
most important factor in choosing a camera.)\


Precisely. You don't give a damn what kind of battery is in it if the other
features are right.

Paul Allen


--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
  #25  
Old April 11th 06, 06:28 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.zlr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FZ30 battery

Paul Allen wrote:

The ones that weren't listed, and that matter most to me: They're
less expensive and come in one standard size. Until the camera
makers get together on one or two standard li-ion battery sizes,
I'll prefer AA batteries.


Actually, while it certainly isn't down to one or two, there are many
cameras, from different manufacturers, that do use the same Li-Ion
battery pack. And of course many manufacturers use the same battery in
many different models.

As far as cost goes, if you look at the cost of an after-market Li-Ion
pack, from a reputable company, the cost is very comparable to that of
NiMH AA cells.

I.e. at $10 for four Sanyo 2500 mAH NiMH cells, and $11.50 for a Canon
BP511 (after-market), the cost per cycle for 300 cycles over three
years, is 5/10 of a cent different. If you do the maximum rated cycles
(500 for NiMH, 1000 for Li-Ion) then the Li-Ion is much cheaper (with
the low self-discharge rate of Li-Ion, you're unlikely to reach 1000
cycles before the battery reaches its end-of-life based on time (3 years).

If you compare using battery packs from the manufacturer, rather than
after-market, then the Li-Ion batteries do cost a lot more.

Steve
http://batterydata.com/
  #26  
Old April 11th 06, 06:31 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.zlr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FZ30 battery

SMS wrote:
[]
If you compare using battery packs from the manufacturer, rather than
after-market, then the Li-Ion batteries do cost a lot more.

Steve


I'm sure you could buy Camera Brand NiMH cells at a vastly inflated price
as well, if you try hard enough!

G

David


  #27  
Old April 11th 06, 07:32 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.zlr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FZ30 battery

David J Taylor wrote:
SMS wrote:
[]
If you compare using battery packs from the manufacturer, rather than
after-market, then the Li-Ion batteries do cost a lot more.

Steve


I'm sure you could buy Camera Brand NiMH cells at a vastly inflated price
as well, if you try hard enough!


For some reason it's much harder for stores to gouge on the NiMH
batteries, because I think they're trying to sell them as an alternative
to alkalines, rather than trying to position them against a proprietary
battery.

Fry's is no discount store, yet their AA prices are comparable to Thomas
-Distributing, while their proprietary Li-Ion batteries are very
expensive. Their proprietary NiMH packs are also expensive, I have an
old camcorder and my son wanted to use it, and Fry's wanted about 2x
what I bought the NiMH battery pack for on Amazon.
  #28  
Old April 11th 06, 07:41 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.zlr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FZ30 battery

J. Clarke wrote:

Li-ion batteries have lower maintenance, how???


Whether NiMH batteries benefit from the occasional deep discharge like NiCD
do is debateable. But if they do then then need it.


It isn't just that, though it is true that doing a refresh charge on an
NiMH will help maintain full capacity. I was also referring to the fact
that you can't just charge up a few sets of NiMH batteries and leave
them in your camera bag for when they are needed. The self-discharge
makes this impractical (it is true that the new Sanyo eneloop batteries
will not have this problem).

Li-ion batteries are
really less expensive if you factor in things that don't matter?


How does life-cycle cost not matter? If a lithium ion battery costs twice
as much but is good for three times as many cycles then it's cheaper in the
long run.


Many people make the mistake of not looking at the big picture when it
comes to figuring out cost. Now to be fair, the Li-Ion battery has about
a three year life-span, regardless of the number of cycles, so you
really can't base your calculations on the maximum number of cycles
unless you are a very heavy user, taking thousands of pictures per week.
Still, even with a more reasonable number of cycles, the Li-Ion cost is
very comparable to NiMH cost.

Li-ion battery technology certainly has some advantages. Some people
over-state the case in their zeal to make a conversion.


"Conversion" is not possible. If you think that someone is trying to
"convert" you then you need to put a few more layers on your tinfoil hat.


Conversion is sometimes possible. Some cameras can take an RCR-V3 Li-Ion
in place of two AA cells. for digital SLRs, sometimes the vertical grip
can use either two Li-Ion packs, or six AA cells.

Less expensive is debatable unless you consider only purchase price and not
life-cycle cost. The standard size was mentioned.


Also, don't forget that the Li-Ion powered camera comes with a battery
and a charger, two things that most AA powered cameras lack. Add about
$20 for a charger and batteries.

Steve
http://batterydata.com
  #29  
Old April 12th 06, 01:24 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.zlr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FZ30 battery

http://stores.ebay.com/Snap-it-Digital

Lists 1000 mah batteries for the FZ30 for 19.99 + S&H.

Dave

  #30  
Old April 12th 06, 06:51 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.zlr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FZ30 battery

SMS wrote:
Paul Allen wrote:
SMS wrote:
Paul Allen wrote:

snip

It's too
bad NiMH cells can't match the size, weight, and power
density characteristics of Li-ion cells, because NiMH's have
a lot of other advantages.

What might those be? The size, weight, and power density advantages
of Li-Ion are just three of the many advantages.


The major advantages of Li-Ion a

1. Much lower self-discharge rate (except for Sanyo Eneloop NiMH
batteries)

2. Higher maximum number of charge/discharge cycles

3. Higher energy density in terms of both weight and volume

4. Far, far better low-temperature performance

5. Lower cost, when you factor in the higher energy density, and the
maximum number of charge/discharge cycles

6. Protection circuitry integral to the battery pack, rather than
integral to the camera

7. Accurate charge level indicator due to linear voltage decline
proportional to charge level

8. Lower maintenance.

9. Much better selection of higher-end cameras use Li-Ion batteries.

10. No problems with battery doors that are part of the charging
circuit (battery doors are the most often replaced part of digital
cameras).



NiMH rechargeable batteries have the following advantages over Li-Ion
rechargeable batteries:

1. Faster charging with high rate chargers

2. Ability to use disposable AA batteries if NiMH AA batteries are
discharged and no charger is available

3. Longer shelf life


Sounds like biased li-ion evangelism to me. Suit yourself.


I see, so you can't point out any inaccuracies in those statements, and
you can't point out the "a lot of other advantages" that you stated
existed.


Actually, you don't see. I noted your bias, but couldn't see any point
in actually rebutting the worst of your claims. You're so passionate
about defending li-ion batteries that you have a whole web page devoted
to proving their superiority. To do more than just acknowledge your
bias would just stir the pot to no useful result.

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need
for illusion is deep. Saul Bellow


Too true.

Paul Allen
 




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