CHARTER: rec.photo.digital.zlr

In view of the recent discussions, it may be helpful to have a reminder of
the group's charter.

Cheers,
David
---------------------------------------------

CHARTER: rec.photo.digital.zlr

This newsgroup, rec.photo.digital.zlr, is an open forum for the discussion
of
high-end digital cameras with fixed zoom lenses and full manual controls,
and
using those cameras. These cameras are frequently referred to as digital
ZLR
(zoom lens reflex) cameras or SLR-like digital cameras, and typically have
an
SLR-like appearance due to the bulk of the lens rather than the relatively
more
compact shape of most point-and-shoot digital cameras.

Additional On-Topic Discussion:

- Any relevant accessories for digital ZLR cameras, such as: external
flash
units, add-on lens elements, memory cards, microdrives, lens
filters/hoods,
camera bags/cases, digital ZLR maintenance, tripods and monopods.
- Photography techniques, as long as the discussion remains within the
context
of digital ZLR photography
- Image post-processing, as long as the discussion remains within the
context
of digital ZLR photography
- Posting links to personal photo galleries or images, as long as the
discussion remains within the context of digital ZLR photography.

What Is Considered Off-Topic:

- Discussion of "point and shoot" digital cameras with no manual controls
- Discussion of any film cameras
- Discussion of cameras with mounts for detachable lenses
- Discussion of scanners
- Discussion of printers
- Posting links to personal photo galleries or images, not in the context
of
digital ZLR photography

Posting off-topic should be kept to a minimum. All off-topic posts should
be
prefixed with [OT] or another easily-identifiable prefix in the subject
line.
If a segment of any on topic thread ever becomes clearly off-topic, it is
the
duty of those individuals posting to change the subject line to reflect
the
off-topic change.

Debating the pros and cons of digital photography vs. film photography is
off-topic. Please be polite and try to not steer any conversations in that
direction. In the event that any segment of any on-topic thread ever
becomes
clearly off-topic by debating the pros and cons of digital photography vs.
film
photography, it is the duty of those individuals posting to change the
subject
line to reflect the off-topic change.

What Is Considered Inappropriate:

- Crossposting to any other newsgroup except where the post is of direct
relevance to each group in the crosspost

What Is Not Permitted:

- Posts from mail2news gateways and/or anonymous remailers
- Flame wars (comparisons between different digital camera brands or
models are
permitted as long as they do not degenerate into personal flames)
- Signatures with more than 4 lines
- Exchange and/or discussion of illegal software
- Personal attacks
- Binary postings (i.e. non text postings) other than PGP and small binary
signatures
- Commercial advertisements:

This newsgroup explicitly prohibits the posting of advertisements of any
kind,
whether personal, private or commercial, as well as all other promotional
material, whether or not it is in any way related to photography.

Auction announcements (Ebay.com and others) are prohibited.

Posting links to commercial websites with the sole intention of promoting
those
sites is not permitted; links to commercial websites may be posted in the
context of answering a specific question.

All postings made to this group should conform to existing Usenet
guidelines
(see news.announce.newusers for guideline documents).

When posting on rec.photo.digital.zlr, please use standard Usenet
netiquette.
Treat other posters with courtesy and follow standard conventions when
replying
to posts. Please trim the posts you reply to, retaining only the
significant
portions in your follow up. Preserve attributions (the bits that specify
who
wrote what in each post) and limit your signature to 4 lines or less. To
ensure
readability, do not use HTML in your posts and limit your line lengths to
the
Usenet standard of 80 characters or less.

END CHARTER.

Thanks, David. I read it and am still not convinced.

Good luck, by the way, as I do admire folks who work with good intentions;
albeit sometimes misguided.

A name can be everything, by the way. This is not a Skakespearian rose.
There is no such thing as a digital ZLR!

Hi Charles, you say

There is no such thing as a digital ZLR!

Even worse, there even is such thing as a digital ZLR, as just pointed out
by Per Nordenberg, examples being the Olympus E-10 and E-20. These are
actual SLR digital cameras with a non-interchangeable zoom lens, and thus
legitimately called ZLRs or dZLRs, as opposed to any EVF camera.

This highlights even more the utter inadequacy of the deceptive,
misleading designation.

The best,

Julio.

Even worse, there even is such thing as a digital ZLR, as just pointed out
by Per Nordenberg, examples being the Olympus E-10 and E-20. These are
actual SLR digital cameras with a non-interchangeable zoom lens, and thus
legitimately called ZLRs or dZLRs, as opposed to any EVF camera.

Just returned from dpreview.com where Phil Askey wrote: "The E-10 is
Olympus's foray into the professional digital SLR market."

Now, Phil is just one voice in the noise but most agree a rather loud one.

Anyway, if there is such a thing as a digital ZLR then I'll be quiet and go
back into my mouse hole. However, on this group it seems that electronic
view finder cameras are being added to a fuzzy genre, where they clearly
don't belong.

My real concern is that I'd hate to see this group spend a lot of its time
in a stormy sea of definitions, and that seems to be where it is currently
sailing.

Hi Charles,
Just returned from dpreview.com where Phil Askey
wrote: "The E-10 is Olympus's foray into the
professional digital SLR market."

Now, Phil is just one voice in the noise but most
agree a rather loud one.

I see no contradiction! A ZLR is above everything a SLR. For instance, the
film Olympus IS-20/200 are more often than not called SLRs, although they
are also what is traditionally called a ZLR, because of their
non-interchangeable zoom lens.

Anyway, if there is such a thing as a digital ZLR
then I'll be quiet and go back into my mouse hole.

Not that I want you back to your mouse hole, but if one can call the
IS-20/200 ZLRs, then by the same token one can also call the E-10/20 ZLRs
if so one wishes, although calling them SLRs is just perfect.

In any case one has a SLR with a non-interchangeable zoom lens, or a ZLR
if one wishes.

However, on this group it seems that electronic
view finder cameras are being added to a fuzzy genre,
where they clearly don't belong.

Yup.

My real concern is that I'd hate to see this group
spend a lot of its time in a stormy sea of definitions,
and that seems to be where it is currently sailing.

I agree. The only solutions I see for the moment are either to change the
name of this group from rec.photo.digital.zlr to rec.photo.digital.evf or
explicitly to state in its charter that "ZLR" is just a misnaming for EVFs.

The best,

Julio.

Charles Schuler wrote:
Thanks, David. I read it and am still not convinced.

Good luck, by the way, as I do admire folks who work with good
intentions; albeit sometimes misguided.

A name can be everything, by the way. This is not a Skakespearian
rose. There is no such thing as a digital ZLR!

Charles,

We spent a long time discussing the name for this group while the charter
was being defined, and anyone who objected had the right to speak then.
Many did and were listened to, but ZLR was the best name we could come up
with. That the Olympus E-10 and E-20 were meant to be included in the
group (because they do not have interchangeable lens systems) shows that
definition by viewfinder alone is not correct.

The newsgroup creation process does not allow for charter amendments.

Over time, language changes. Whilst the term ZLR is relatively to new
digital cameras, it does now embrace a fairly well defined class of fully
controllable, non-compact cameras without interchangeable lenses. I don't
particularly like the term, but no-one came up with anything better!

Cheers,
David

"J.S.Pitanga" skrev i meddelandet
news
Hi Charles,
Just returned from dpreview.com where Phil Askey
wrote: "The E-10 is Olympus's foray into the
professional digital SLR market."

Now, Phil is just one voice in the noise but most
agree a rather loud one.

I see no contradiction! A ZLR is above everything a SLR. For instance, the
film Olympus IS-20/200 are more often than not called SLRs, although they
are also what is traditionally called a ZLR, because of their
non-interchangeable zoom lens.

Maybe a bit OT, but this tradition [to call a SLR camera with a non-interchangeable lens a 'ZLR
camera'] was, AFAIK, initiated by Olympus when they released their very first true ZLR, the AZ-4
Zoom, in 1989. The AZ-4 Zoom was the predecessor to the long iS (no, it's not a spelling mistake -
it is_ actually spelled with a lower-case 'i' and a capital 'S') series of 'bridge cameras', the
series of SLR film camera models that are usually associated with the term 'ZLR'.

http://www.star.ucl.ac.uk/~rwesson/e...camhistory.htm

Regards,

Per Nordenberg

Charles Schuler wrote:

My real concern is that I'd hate to see this group spend a lot of its time
in a stormy sea of definitions, and that seems to be where it is currently
sailing.

With you supplying the wind power.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.

Charles Schuler wrote:

Thanks, David. I read it and am still not convinced.

Good luck, by the way, as I do admire folks who work with good intentions;
albeit sometimes misguided.

A name can be everything, by the way. This is not a Skakespearian rose.
There is no such thing as a digital ZLR!

The "debate" was a long time ago and it is over. "zlr", for lack of a better
name was agreed to and the definition of what it covered was agreed to.

Is it perfect? No. Does it have its place? Absolutely.

Are there other places for P&S, DSLR and rangefinders? Yes.

Is there a place for general discussions about digital? Yep.

So.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.

With you supplying the wind power.

And you supplying the fluff?