Extreme Eyes

I've recently developed a handful of pix at a night football game, where
the eyes look awful. I'm not sure it's typical red eye, or if I just
hadn't seen it before. The pupil looks blown out, and the edge of it, or
perhaps the iris, has a red ring around. I've tried de-saturating the
area, but there's nothing behind the apparently blown eyes; white
jersies are all right. Using flash, 5D, 24-105 IS. Wondering if the red
in part of the iris could be picked up from the nearby red jersies.
Wondering what happened.

--
john mcwilliams

"John McWilliams" wrote in message
. ..
I've recently developed a handful of pix at a night football game, where
the eyes look awful. I'm not sure it's typical red eye, or if I just
hadn't seen it before. The pupil looks blown out, and the edge of it, or
perhaps the iris, has a red ring around. I've tried de-saturating the
area, but there's nothing behind the apparently blown eyes; white jersies
are all right. Using flash, 5D, 24-105 IS. Wondering if the red in part of
the iris could be picked up from the nearby red jersies. Wondering what
happened.

--
john mcwilliams

Are you using a genuine canon speedlite?
Next, are you using area average or matrix metering.
Next, are you using the first or second shutter sync?
Next, are you using the speedlite as a fill flash or primary source?

Depending on the answers I may be able to help you avoid it in the future
but nothing much I can do now it's done. The real problem with Canon's flash
system is it's incomplete. It works in ways it should not while not working
as you'd expect it. Far from intuitive.

Douglas

Douglas wrote:
"John McWilliams" wrote in message
. ..
I've recently developed a handful of pix at a night football game, where
the eyes look awful. I'm not sure it's typical red eye, or if I just
hadn't seen it before. The pupil looks blown out, and the edge of it, or
perhaps the iris, has a red ring around. I've tried de-saturating the
area, but there's nothing behind the apparently blown eyes; white jersies
are all right. Using flash, 5D, 24-105 IS. Wondering if the red in part of
the iris could be picked up from the nearby red jersies. Wondering what
happened.

--
john mcwilliams

Are you using a genuine canon speedlite?

Yes. 580.

Next, are you using area average or matrix metering.

It was probably spot, but over all exposure was good.

Next, are you using the first or second shutter sync?

First.

Next, are you using the speedlite as a fill flash or primary source?

Very much primary. 1/160th and wide open, usually, maybe stop or two
down, manual. Any slower and there's too much motion blur.

Depending on the answers I may be able to help you avoid it in the future
but nothing much I can do now it's done. The real problem with Canon's flash
system is it's incomplete. It works in ways it should not while not working
as you'd expect it. Far from intuitive.

I've never really liked flash, although I use it liberally before five
and after seven. Indoors I usually bounce if possible, or use a diffuser
and more as fill than main.

--
John McWilliams

Can you upload an example to somewhere like tinypic.com?


"John McWilliams" wrote in message
. ..
I've recently developed a handful of pix at a night football game, where
the eyes look awful. I'm not sure it's typical red eye, or if I just
hadn't seen it before. The pupil looks blown out, and the edge of it, or
perhaps the iris, has a red ring around. I've tried de-saturating the
area, but there's nothing behind the apparently blown eyes; white jersies
are all right. Using flash, 5D, 24-105 IS. Wondering if the red in part of
the iris could be picked up from the nearby red jersies. Wondering what
happened.

--
john mcwilliams

Rita Ä Berkowitz wrote:
Ali wrote:

Can you upload an example to somewhere like tinypic.com?

He could but he won't since he'd rather criticize other people's work
and not showing us all how great he does it.

Been there, done that. Pay attention!

And stfu! I gave you permission to reply judicisouly to my posts, but
the stalking has got to stop, bee-atch.


--
lsmft

"John McWilliams" wrote in message
. ..
Douglas wrote:
"John McWilliams" wrote in message
. ..
I've recently developed a handful of pix at a night football game, where
the eyes look awful. I'm not sure it's typical red eye, or if I just
hadn't seen it before. The pupil looks blown out, and the edge of it, or
perhaps the iris, has a red ring around. I've tried de-saturating the
area, but there's nothing behind the apparently blown eyes; white
jersies are all right. Using flash, 5D, 24-105 IS. Wondering if the red
in part of the iris could be picked up from the nearby red jersies.
Wondering what happened.

--
john mcwilliams

Are you using a genuine canon speedlite?

Yes. 580.

Next, are you using area average or matrix metering.

It was probably spot, but over all exposure was good.

Next, are you using the first or second shutter sync?

First.

Next, are you using the speedlite as a fill flash or primary source?

Very much primary. 1/160th and wide open, usually, maybe stop or two down,
manual. Any slower and there's too much motion blur.

Depending on the answers I may be able to help you avoid it in the future
but nothing much I can do now it's done. The real problem with Canon's
flash system is it's incomplete. It works in ways it should not while not
working as you'd expect it. Far from intuitive.

I've never really liked flash, although I use it liberally before five and
after seven. Indoors I usually bounce if possible, or use a diffuser and
more as fill than main.

--
John McWilliams



The answers tell me two thing John.

1. You need to RTFM because what you describe, the flash will over ride.

2. You can't use spot metering with a 580EX speedlite as anything but a fill
flash. The camera's custom function selections for flash in anything but
(green square) idiot mode are matrix or area average.

3. 1/60th is the default sync speed and it *WILL* cause you eye problems
under a few clearly identifiable situations. This includes as people end
their blink - eyes full open as the flash fires.

Obscure as it is ...the duration of the lamp in speedlites is prolonged at
default settings. Backwards compatibility drags progress to a halt. The
theory of 1/60th sync goes back to the fabric shutter curtain days when a
slit had to move across the film for exposure.

Flash duration had to be enough for the flash to evenly light the film as
the curtain traversed it. Even though EOS shutters are blade shutters which
in theory can use 1/125th or higher sync default... Canon's speedlite
development staff don't seem to have noticed this.

When the flash duration is prolonged it causes some people's eyes to respond
at a different rate to other and the "blood lines" become more prominent,
even when you use an infra red pre-light or a pre-flash. Particularly if
someone blinks and your click is at the return of their eye lid, you'll get
this response.

So... Custom functions in your camera allow you to set the flash sync to
1/250th in Av mode. The flash itself can be set to "hi-speed" sync for fill
flash in program mode too. This will allow you to use program mode and the
flash will act as a fill flash or...

My preferred method is the set the sync speed to 1/250th, the aperture to
F/5.6 or thereabouts and let the flash meter the output needed. When the
lighting is such that this causes "dark" pictures (light too low), crank up
the ISO. Canon speedlites are pretty unpredictable when you need precision
lighting. I much prefer Nikon's SB 800 with my 5Ds.

I very often shoot at ISO 1600 with a diffused flash with Av priority at
about F/4.5 - F5/6 and it's good for up to 60 or so feet.
http://www.weddingsnportraits.com.au/examples/ the top picture here is such
a shot. I used one of these: search.ebay.com.au/130182468288 with aluminium
tape on the back of the bowl to boost it's ability with the flash vertical.

Douglas

Douglas wrote:
"John McWilliams" wrote in message


Depending on the answers I may be able to help you avoid it in the future
but nothing much I can do now it's done. The real problem with Canon's
flash system is it's incomplete. It works in ways it should not while not
working as you'd expect it. Far from intuitive.
I've never really liked flash, although I use it liberally before five and
after seven. Indoors I usually bounce if possible, or use a diffuser and
more as fill than main.


The answers tell me two thing John.

1. You need to RTFM because what you describe, the flash will over ride.

2. You can't use spot metering with a 580EX speedlite as anything but a fill
flash. The camera's custom function selections for flash in anything but
(green square) idiot mode are matrix or area average.

The camera is almost always set to spot- the 5D, that is, as the 20D
don't got none. That it reverts automatically to another mode is fine.

3. 1/60th is the default sync speed and it *WILL* cause you eye problems
under a few clearly identifiable situations. This includes as people end
their blink - eyes full open as the flash fires.
It's 1/160 th, slowest I use under these circumstances.

See below for rest, please.

Obscure as it is ...the duration of the lamp in speedlites is prolonged at
default settings. Backwards compatibility drags progress to a halt. The
theory of 1/60th sync goes back to the fabric shutter curtain days when a
slit had to move across the film for exposure.

Flash duration had to be enough for the flash to evenly light the film as
the curtain traversed it. Even though EOS shutters are blade shutters which
in theory can use 1/125th or higher sync default... Canon's speedlite
development staff don't seem to have noticed this.

When the flash duration is prolonged it causes some people's eyes to respond
at a different rate to other and the "blood lines" become more prominent,
even when you use an infra red pre-light or a pre-flash. Particularly if
someone blinks and your click is at the return of their eye lid, you'll get
this response.

So... Custom functions in your camera allow you to set the flash sync to
1/250th in Av mode. The flash itself can be set to "hi-speed" sync for fill
flash in program mode too. This will allow you to use program mode and the
flash will act as a fill flash or...

My preferred method is the set the sync speed to 1/250th, the aperture to
F/5.6 or thereabouts and let the flash meter the output needed. When the
lighting is such that this causes "dark" pictures (light too low), crank up
the ISO. Canon speedlites are pretty unpredictable when you need precision
lighting. I much prefer Nikon's SB 800 with my 5Ds.

I very often shoot at ISO 1600 with a diffused flash with Av priority at
about F/4.5 - F5/6 and it's good for up to 60 or so feet.
http://www.weddingsnportraits.com.au/examples/ the top picture here is such
a shot. I used one of these: search.ebay.com.au/130182468288 with aluminium
tape on the back of the bowl to boost it's ability with the flash vertical.

D-Mac-

I appreciate the thoroughness of your reply; much of it is good general
info, but not what I am trying to learn.

First, in the case I am talking about, it's fast moving Yankee footie
under poor lights. I set my shutter speed between 1/160 (not ever
1/60th) and 1/250. ISO 800 on 20D, 1600 on 5D. For 20D with the 70-200
with or with out 1.4 TC, usually wide open. With 5D, sometimes down a
couple stops. Any more, or using Hi-Speed sync, I lose too much light.
Doesn't sound much diff. from what you do, with the exception I don't
have as many options, usually need full discharge, and no do-overs. None.

Finally, this is unlike any red-eye I have ever seen: pupils blown with
slight red around the perimeter; bright white jersies properly exposed.
--
John McWilliams

On Dec 16, 12:55 pm, John McWilliams wrote:
Douglas wrote:
"John McWilliams" wrote in message

Depending on the answers I may be able to help you avoid it in the future
but nothing much I can do now it's done. The real problem with Canon's
flash system is it's incomplete. It works in ways it should not while not
working as you'd expect it. Far from intuitive.
I've never really liked flash, although I use it liberally before five and
after seven. Indoors I usually bounce if possible, or use a diffuser and
more as fill than main.

The answers tell me two thing John.

1. You need to RTFM because what you describe, the flash will over ride.

2. You can't use spot metering with a 580EX speedlite as anything but a fill
flash. The camera's custom function selections for flash in anything but
(green square) idiot mode are matrix or area average.

The camera is almost always set to spot- the 5D, that is, as the 20D
don't got none. That it reverts automatically to another mode is fine.

3. 1/60th is the default sync speed and it *WILL* cause you eye problems
under a few clearly identifiable situations. This includes as people end
their blink - eyes full open as the flash fires.

It's 1/160 th, slowest I use under these circumstances.

See below for rest, please.







Obscure as it is ...the duration of the lamp in speedlites is prolonged at
default settings. Backwards compatibility drags progress to a halt. The
theory of 1/60th sync goes back to the fabric shutter curtain days when a
slit had to move across the film for exposure.

Flash duration had to be enough for the flash to evenly light the film as
the curtain traversed it. Even though EOS shutters are blade shutters which
in theory can use 1/125th or higher sync default... Canon's speedlite
development staff don't seem to have noticed this.

When the flash duration is prolonged it causes some people's eyes to respond
at a different rate to other and the "blood lines" become more prominent,
even when you use an infra red pre-light or a pre-flash. Particularly if
someone blinks and your click is at the return of their eye lid, you'll get
this response.

So... Custom functions in your camera allow you to set the flash sync to
1/250th in Av mode. The flash itself can be set to "hi-speed" sync for fill
flash in program mode too. This will allow you to use program mode and the
flash will act as a fill flash or...

My preferred method is the set the sync speed to 1/250th, the aperture to
F/5.6 or thereabouts and let the flash meter the output needed. When the
lighting is such that this causes "dark" pictures (light too low), crank up
the ISO. Canon speedlites are pretty unpredictable when you need precision
lighting. I much prefer Nikon's SB 800 with my 5Ds.

I very often shoot at ISO 1600 with a diffused flash with Av priority at
about F/4.5 - F5/6 and it's good for up to 60 or so feet.
http://www.weddingsnportraits.com.au/examples/the top picture here is such
a shot. I used one of these: search.ebay.com.au/130182468288 with aluminium
tape on the back of the bowl to boost it's ability with the flash vertical.

D-Mac-

I appreciate the thoroughness of your reply; much of it is good general
info, but not what I am trying to learn.

First, in the case I am talking about, it's fast moving Yankee footie
under poor lights. I set my shutter speed between 1/160 (not ever
1/60th) and 1/250. ISO 800 on 20D, 1600 on 5D. For 20D with the 70-200
with or with out 1.4 TC, usually wide open. With 5D, sometimes down a
couple stops. Any more, or using Hi-Speed sync, I lose too much light.
Doesn't sound much diff. from what you do, with the exception I don't
have as many options, usually need full discharge, and no do-overs. None.

Finally, this is unlike any red-eye I have ever seen: pupils blown with
slight red around the perimeter; bright white jersies properly exposed.
--
John McWilliams- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

John,
A picture, or portion there of, would be most helpful. If you would
be so kind as to send it to me, I'd even post it online for a time if
you wish...

Jim G -- 2 to email

JimKramer wrote:
On Dec 16, 12:55 pm, John McWilliams wrote:
Douglas wrote:
"John McWilliams" wrote in message
Depending on the answers I may be able to help you avoid it in the future
but nothing much I can do now it's done. The real problem with Canon's
flash system is it's incomplete. It works in ways it should not while not
working as you'd expect it. Far from intuitive.
I've never really liked flash, although I use it liberally before five and
after seven. Indoors I usually bounce if possible, or use a diffuser and
more as fill than main.
The answers tell me two thing John.
1. You need to RTFM because what you describe, the flash will over ride.
2. You can't use spot metering with a 580EX speedlite as anything but a fill
flash. The camera's custom function selections for flash in anything but
(green square) idiot mode are matrix or area average.
The camera is almost always set to spot- the 5D, that is, as the 20D
don't got none. That it reverts automatically to another mode is fine.

3. 1/60th is the default sync speed and it *WILL* cause you eye problems
under a few clearly identifiable situations. This includes as people end
their blink - eyes full open as the flash fires.
It's 1/160 th, slowest I use under these circumstances.

See below for rest, please.







Obscure as it is ...the duration of the lamp in speedlites is prolonged at
default settings. Backwards compatibility drags progress to a halt. The
theory of 1/60th sync goes back to the fabric shutter curtain days when a
slit had to move across the film for exposure.
Flash duration had to be enough for the flash to evenly light the film as
the curtain traversed it. Even though EOS shutters are blade shutters which
in theory can use 1/125th or higher sync default... Canon's speedlite
development staff don't seem to have noticed this.
When the flash duration is prolonged it causes some people's eyes to respond
at a different rate to other and the "blood lines" become more prominent,
even when you use an infra red pre-light or a pre-flash. Particularly if
someone blinks and your click is at the return of their eye lid, you'll get
this response.
So... Custom functions in your camera allow you to set the flash sync to
1/250th in Av mode. The flash itself can be set to "hi-speed" sync for fill
flash in program mode too. This will allow you to use program mode and the
flash will act as a fill flash or...
My preferred method is the set the sync speed to 1/250th, the aperture to
F/5.6 or thereabouts and let the flash meter the output needed. When the
lighting is such that this causes "dark" pictures (light too low), crank up
the ISO. Canon speedlites are pretty unpredictable when you need precision
lighting. I much prefer Nikon's SB 800 with my 5Ds.
I very often shoot at ISO 1600 with a diffused flash with Av priority at
about F/4.5 - F5/6 and it's good for up to 60 or so feet.
http://www.weddingsnportraits.com.au/examples/the top picture here is such
a shot. I used one of these: search.ebay.com.au/130182468288 with aluminium
tape on the back of the bowl to boost it's ability with the flash vertical.
D-Mac-

I appreciate the thoroughness of your reply; much of it is good general
info, but not what I am trying to learn.

First, in the case I am talking about, it's fast moving Yankee footie
under poor lights. I set my shutter speed between 1/160 (not ever
1/60th) and 1/250. ISO 800 on 20D, 1600 on 5D. For 20D with the 70-200
with or with out 1.4 TC, usually wide open. With 5D, sometimes down a
couple stops. Any more, or using Hi-Speed sync, I lose too much light.
Doesn't sound much diff. from what you do, with the exception I don't
have as many options, usually need full discharge, and no do-overs. None.

Finally, this is unlike any red-eye I have ever seen: pupils blown with
slight red around the perimeter; bright white jersies properly exposed.
--
John McWilliams- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

John,
A picture, or portion there of, would be most helpful. If you would
be so kind as to send it to me, I'd even post it online for a time if
you wish...

Jim G -- 2 to email

Thanks. I will send it today, and it'll be fine to link to from here if
you wish. It'll be 100% crop of a portion or two.

John- but not sure of your E-mail addy- is it in your headers, or need
some adjustment?

"John McWilliams" wrote in message
...
Douglas wrote:
"John McWilliams" wrote in message


Depending on the answers I may be able to help you avoid it in the
future but nothing much I can do now it's done. The real problem with
Canon's flash system is it's incomplete. It works in ways it should not
while not working as you'd expect it. Far from intuitive.
I've never really liked flash, although I use it liberally before five
and after seven. Indoors I usually bounce if possible, or use a diffuser
and more as fill than main.


The answers tell me two thing John.

1. You need to RTFM because what you describe, the flash will over ride.

2. You can't use spot metering with a 580EX speedlite as anything but a
fill flash. The camera's custom function selections for flash in anything
but (green square) idiot mode are matrix or area average.

The camera is almost always set to spot- the 5D, that is, as the 20D don't
got none. That it reverts automatically to another mode is fine.

3. 1/60th is the default sync speed and it *WILL* cause you eye problems
under a few clearly identifiable situations. This includes as people end
their blink - eyes full open as the flash fires.
It's 1/160 th, slowest I use under these circumstances.

See below for rest, please.

Obscure as it is ...the duration of the lamp in speedlites is prolonged
at default settings. Backwards compatibility drags progress to a halt.
The theory of 1/60th sync goes back to the fabric shutter curtain days
when a slit had to move across the film for exposure.

Flash duration had to be enough for the flash to evenly light the film as
the curtain traversed it. Even though EOS shutters are blade shutters
which in theory can use 1/125th or higher sync default... Canon's
speedlite development staff don't seem to have noticed this.

When the flash duration is prolonged it causes some people's eyes to
respond at a different rate to other and the "blood lines" become more
prominent, even when you use an infra red pre-light or a pre-flash.
Particularly if someone blinks and your click is at the return of their
eye lid, you'll get this response.

So... Custom functions in your camera allow you to set the flash sync to
1/250th in Av mode. The flash itself can be set to "hi-speed" sync for
fill flash in program mode too. This will allow you to use program mode
and the flash will act as a fill flash or...

My preferred method is the set the sync speed to 1/250th, the aperture to
F/5.6 or thereabouts and let the flash meter the output needed. When the
lighting is such that this causes "dark" pictures (light too low), crank
up the ISO. Canon speedlites are pretty unpredictable when you need
precision lighting. I much prefer Nikon's SB 800 with my 5Ds.

I very often shoot at ISO 1600 with a diffused flash with Av priority at
about F/4.5 - F5/6 and it's good for up to 60 or so feet.
http://www.weddingsnportraits.com.au/examples/ the top picture here is
such a shot. I used one of these: search.ebay.com.au/130182468288 with
aluminium tape on the back of the bowl to boost it's ability with the
flash vertical.

D-Mac-

I appreciate the thoroughness of your reply; much of it is good general
info, but not what I am trying to learn.

First, in the case I am talking about, it's fast moving Yankee footie
under poor lights. I set my shutter speed between 1/160 (not ever 1/60th)
and 1/250. ISO 800 on 20D, 1600 on 5D. For 20D with the 70-200 with or
with out 1.4 TC, usually wide open. With 5D, sometimes down a couple
stops. Any more, or using Hi-Speed sync, I lose too much light. Doesn't
sound much diff. from what you do, with the exception I don't have as many
options, usually need full discharge, and no do-overs. None.

Finally, this is unlike any red-eye I have ever seen: pupils blown with
slight red around the perimeter; bright white jersies properly exposed.
--
John McWilliams



Hate to tell you this John but the effective range of a 580 EX is
unpredictable with FL over 125mm. You probably aren't getting any value from
the flash at all. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with using ISO 1600
on a 5D for your type of shots. Ditch the flash altogether or get a "real"
one from Metz.

Douglas