Canon S3 IS - too slow?

With recent assistance I received from this NG I decided to buy a
Canon S3 IS, which best suits my needs. After trying it withthe
16Mb card that it comes with, I realized that it takes too long
between taking one picture and the next. I went out and bought a
Kodak High Performance 4 GB (SDHC), and still the same problem.

Other than accepting the camera's limitations, is there anything I
can do to speed up the time it takes between taking pictures?

Thanks again for any help you may be able to provide. - gA

"gA" wrote in message
news:V5Bzi.89400$rX4.72561@pd7urf2no...
With recent assistance I received from this NG I decided to buy a Canon S3
IS, which best suits my needs. After trying it withthe 16Mb card that it
comes with, I realized that it takes too long between taking one picture
and the next. I went out and bought a Kodak High Performance 4 GB (SDHC),
and still the same problem.

Other than accepting the camera's limitations, is there anything I can do
to speed up the time it takes between taking pictures?

Thanks again for any help you may be able to provide. - gA

It might not be the answer you want to hear but dropping the quality of your
pics should speed the process of saving them to the MC.

Other than that I think you are stuck with it.

The S3IS does have some drawbacks but it is still a great camera all the
same

Right on, Jack, I am happy again. I also spoke with Canon who said
that the S3 is limited by its writing speed of 30x-40x and
therefore.. nothing I could do. They said 3 secs between pictures
is normal and if I want faster transfer I should buy a DSLR. They
also said that I would be wasting my money buying higher speed
cards since the camera would create a 'bottleneck'. And I don't
have to drop the image resolution! Your solution worked. God bless
you.

Now... if only I could find a way to improve/optimize low-light
photography!
- gA

Jack Johnson wrote:
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 13:32:37 GMT, gA wrote:

With recent assistance I received from this NG I decided to buy a
Canon S3 IS, which best suits my needs. After trying it withthe
16Mb card that it comes with, I realized that it takes too long
between taking one picture and the next. I went out and bought a
Kodak High Performance 4 GB (SDHC), and still the same problem.

Other than accepting the camera's limitations, is there anything I
can do to speed up the time it takes between taking pictures?

Thanks again for any help you may be able to provide. - gA

Record Mode, Menu button, Review, Off

Though even in high-speed continuous mode at 2.4 fps you will still see a brief
flash of the image you took between exposures with Review Off, making it rather
easy to follow a bird in flight in the viewfinder. I'm constantly taking
high-speed action photography like that with this camera.

With Review Off if you hold in the shutter button after your shot it will hold
the review image as long as you want. Having an auto-review timing is rather
pointless I think, since it's so easy to engage when you want it anyway. You can
even hit the audio memo-record or delete buttons while you are holding down the
shutter button to engage those features too. If you hit either of those buttons
and lock it into review mode with them then you can even use the zoom rocker to
zoom in and out on your image to check for focus or other things without having
to go into playback mode. Quite an amazing little camera.

If your 4G SD card shows signs of slowing down after you take about 30-40 shots
in high-speed mode then try formatting it in FAT16. Some people get remarkable
SD card write-speed increases by doing that, never getting a slow-down for the
capacity of the card. It will depend on make of the card.

gA wrote:
With recent assistance I received from this NG I decided to buy a Canon
S3 IS, which best suits my needs. After trying it withthe 16Mb card that
it comes with, I realized that it takes too long between taking one
picture and the next. I went out and bought a Kodak High Performance 4
GB (SDHC), and still the same problem.

Other than accepting the camera's limitations, is there anything I can
do to speed up the time it takes between taking pictures?

Thanks again for any help you may be able to provide. - gA

Assuming you have at least a 50x sd card and your picture review off
your S3IS should have about a second delay from shot to shot.

http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/ca...hot_s3-review/

Thanks for the CHDK advice: I will follow it when come back from
my 2-month trip to Europe. I won't touch anything now for fear of
screwing up and not having time to get used to features or 'fix
up' things. I am planning to take many low-light shots and I am
wondering if I can generalize on a setting (which I can save in
the Custom button)... such as max ISO of 200 (for better quality),
flash off, etc.. I won't have time to make adjustments for every
shot.
Any suggestions that will minimize noise and yet provide highest
detail? Thank you
- gA


Jack Johnson wrote:
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 20:38:23 GMT, gA wrote:

Right on, Jack, I am happy again. I also spoke with Canon who said
that the S3 is limited by its writing speed of 30x-40x and
therefore.. nothing I could do. They said 3 secs between pictures
is normal and if I want faster transfer I should buy a DSLR. They
also said that I would be wasting my money buying higher speed
cards since the camera would create a 'bottleneck'. And I don't
have to drop the image resolution! Your solution worked. God bless
you.

Now... if only I could find a way to improve/optimize low-light
photography!
- gA

Holy **** (pardon the vernacular), if that's the kind of advice that Canon reps
hand out .... Better not call them when it's something really important!

I guess this is how they get people to buy their dslrs, tell people that they
can't get top (advertised) performance out of the less expensive cameras. One of
their CEOs must have bought a new yacht and sent word out to all the reps to
raise more funds.

Even when pressing the shutter manually in single-shot mode (with everything
auto turned off) I can get almost 2 frames per second if you time the presses
right.

And higher speed cards _do_ help. In high-speed continuous you will find that
after the internal buffer filling-up overrides the writing speed to the card
that consecutive frames (after 20-50 shots depending on the card) you will get a
"busy" flashing in the display between frames as buffer is trying to dump to the
card to keep up. But with very fast write-speed cards that never happens and you
can happily shoot at top speed as long as you want. Anything less than a 133x
card in FAT32 or 150x card (a 4G formatted in FAT16 Transcend card I was
testing) will eventually slow down continuous high-speed shooting. The Transcend
card rated at 150x was actually slower on write speeds than a 133x card. Check
out the CHDK SD card benchmark page to see which cards have top write-speed
performance in these cameras. http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK/Benchmarks

Seriously though, that rep needs to be canned, as well as those that hired them.
This is the fifth time I've read of really really bad advice coming out of Canon
support. Must be their outsourcing to people that have never held a camera and
can only regurgitate what they read on their monitors.

Anyway, it's good you were able to get advice that helped. I feel sorry for
those that call Canon support.


For BULB length exposures, check into that CHDK firmware add-on. While you can't
get longer shutter speeds than 15-seconds, it has an option to turn off the
dark-frame-subtraction noise-reduction routine on exposures from 1.3 to 15
seconds. By using a script to put the camera in high-speed continuous with a
15-second shutter speed, you can keep the shutter open 95% of the time (small
delays between card-writes). Especially handy for lightning and meteors where
the chances of catching one is dependent on how long the shutter is open. Though
you'll have to apply your own dark-frame-subtraction routine with this method.
Then using frame-stacking methods like astronomers use you can get noise-free
images for any exposure length that you want, hours-long exposures if you need.
There's a way to get more out of these cameras than anyone first thought
possible. It just takes a few more steps.

http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK

One other plus to that dark-frame toggle in CHDK, you can also set it for always
on. (Auto, the 3rd option, is the camera's default.). Then it applies a
noise-reduction frame to every shot no matter what shutter speed. For people who
have a few hot or warm pixels that are annoying this automatically maps them
out. Very handy for those who have older cameras now out of warranty. This
option is in CHDK's RAW menu but it applies to JPG files too even if you aren't
saving RAW files.

Again, I'm grateful for your advice which I will implement ASAP.
The only concern I have is to set the largest aperture. What if
there is too much light coming in and the shutter speed cannot go
high enough? How about reducing the noise as much as possible
before applying the software processing?

Another question (unrelated): Is one 4GB Kodak High Performance
SDHC (don't know the speed) for $70 CAD better than two 2GB ATP SD
60x for $74 CAD? I am thinking more about the quality, speed, and
FAT32 formatting vs FAT16.
Cheers, gA

Jack Johnson wrote:
On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 03:45:40 GMT, gA wrote:

Thanks for the CHDK advice: I will follow it when come back from
my 2-month trip to Europe. I won't touch anything now for fear of
screwing up and not having time to get used to features or 'fix
up' things. I am planning to take many low-light shots and I am
wondering if I can generalize on a setting (which I can save in
the Custom button)... such as max ISO of 200 (for better quality),
flash off, etc.. I won't have time to make adjustments for every
shot.
Any suggestions that will minimize noise and yet provide highest
detail? Thank you
- gA

Sounds like what you are planning is the best option for now. Using NoiseWare
Pro (my new favorite), NeatImage, or NoiseNinja later will help with any noise
problems you might have. The "DCNR" (digital camera noise reduction) filter in
Paint Shop Pro is really good too when used right, and if you aren't going to
use RAW (10bit, 16bit when converted), and are just going to use JPG (8-bit) get
a copy of v9.01 of PSP (which is 8-bit processing only). You can get it for a
few pennies these days. The filter in that one is the same as in the newer
versions since Corel bought it. I don't think they even updated it for 16-bit.

ISO200 will give you some noise especially in shadow areas, but nothing that's
insurmountable with those programs. With the IS in the camera you are able to
shoot at much slower shutter speeds than what you might be used to. Put your IS
in "Shoot Only" mode so you can see how much camera-shake you have to correct
for while shooting. In "Continuous" mode you can't see how much you are shaking
the camera and the IS sometimes can't compensate for too much of it during the
actual exposure. Stop as much of the camera-shake yourself and the camera can
easily deal with the rest when you press the shutter. This allows you to shoot
at much slower shutter speeds than what they recommend, even 5 stops slower if
you are steady. Remember too that the steadier you can hold the camera the
faster it will auto-focus, even in very low-light conditions. Practice holding
the camera steady. I lock the strap under one arm, around my back, and shorten
it just right so that when the camera is pressed to my eye the tension is so
tight that the camera and my body become one. No need for a tripod under nearly
all conditions this way. I carry my camera slung over the opposite shoulder
(strap over the head), and it's a simple matter of just swinging it up to my eye
and pulling it tight in one motion to lock it rock-steady this way. Takes less
than a second to be ready and rock-solid for that chance shot. Camera technique
can mean all the difference in how many of your shots turn out right.

For low-light you might want to make all your settings in Av mode and set it on
largest aperture, then use the "Save Settings" menu to record that mode. Your
"Custom" mode will now default to Av mode with your selected ISO and the lens
wide-open (only the shutter-speed being set automatically). It's nice that when
you use the Save Settings feature that it also saves what shooting mode you are
in too. Another point to what a remarkable little camera this is.

Another tip is to use the "My Colors", "Custom Color" settings, turn down your
contrast to -2 and sharpening to -2. This way you won't blow out any lights or
darks (which can happen on the default contrast setting), and the noise won't
automatically be sharpened in the camera, greatly enhancing the noise along with
any other details. This of course depends on if you plan on editing most of your
important photos later anyway. I always do, so for me leaving it on these
settings is the default. I detest unsharp-mask techniques that leave halos on
edges (the default in-camera sharpening method). I always use FocusMagic plug-in
in my editors which works on a totally different principle for all my sharpening
needs. Remember that it's much easier to remove the noise in post-processing
BEFORE you apply any sharpening. The order in which you remove noise and sharpen
is important. Sharpening before noise-removal only sharpens the noise too,
making it much more difficult to remove. I sometimes wonder if Canon didn't
(wrongly) do it in reverse in the camera because the noise becomes so much more
obvious on their default sharpening settings.

I don't know if I lucked out in getting a particularly quiet or efficient sensor
in mine when it was put together but I'm constantly surprised at how little
noise I really have to deal with, even in low-light situations. Test yours a lot
before you head out so you'll know what you might be up against and can get away
with. You too might have gotten a good sensor in yours. Many do. I'm also
surprised at the quality of video in mine in very low-light conditions. Don't
hesitate to get a few video clips when appropriate.

Later when you learn CHDK then you have more options. Shooting in RAW and taking
all post-processing under your own hands you can improve on the noise levels
than what the camera alone can do. Turning on dark-frame subtraction for all
shutter speeds can help too (that new CHDK feature). At the loss of a little
shot-to-shot time (relative to your chosen shutter speed), but worth it if you
are trying to get the best photos possible.

That's about all the advice I have with your concerns.

Good luck on your trip!

I will do that in the next few months, Jack. Actually, I will go
buy that ATP card and use it on my trip for later reporting.
There, now we are even!

I like to 'listen' to everyone's advice, but I decide what to 'buy
into'. You make a lot of sense and I understand most of your
comments, that's why I will implement them. Cheers.
- gA

Jack Johnson wrote:
On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:41:35 GMT, gA wrote:

Again, I'm grateful for your advice which I will implement ASAP.
The only concern I have is to set the largest aperture. What if
there is too much light coming in and the shutter speed cannot go
high enough?

That's when you become a photographer and learn to manually set the aperture
smaller in Aperture Priority (Av) mode to compensate for it. It's just a quick
left/right click to get a new aperture. This ain't rocket science and complex
calculations. Just use your live-histogram on the screen to see when you are
under/over-exposed.

How about reducing the noise as much as possible
before applying the software processing?

That's why I mentioned to use the Custom Color option to reduce the sharpening
to -2. This will reduce the noise being artificially enhanced. There's much less
actual noise in the sensor than that which shows when it is sharpened to the
"Brain-dead Consumer's Gosh-Wow!" sharpness and contrast settings. They put the
sharpening and contrast that high just to impress the first-time looker or the
average snap-shooter that want's "Gosh Wow!" prints right from the camera.
(Nikon's digitals were/are notorious for this. I would never buy one.) They
artificially ramp up the image just as they do when selling TVs on the show-room
floor. When in reality, reality doesn't normally have that much contrast and
saturation. Dumb-sumers are used to seeing bold neon colors on their TV sets so
they expect reality to look that way too and then are disappointed with reality
and any camera that captures reality accurately. (Consumers aren't too bright,
unlike their TVs. Reminding me of an old joke, I wish people came with a
brightness and sharpness setting.) When editing learn to use your Curves tool to
increase contrast and saturation. That method doesn't clip any lights or shadows
when used properly, unlike what happens when using rudimentary contrast
adjustments (in-camera or in editing). Too bad that camera designers aren't
smart enough to use some simple pre-defined curves applied to the luminosity
data for their in-camera contrast options. (Never underestimate the stupidity of
humanity, even those that portend to be and are hired to be intelligent.)

Toning down color saturation in the camera will also reduce any chroma-noise.
Just another thing you can change to needed levels in post-processing AFTER you
do any noise-removal.

Another question (unrelated): Is one 4GB Kodak High Performance
SDHC (don't know the speed) for $70 CAD better than two 2GB ATP SD
60x for $74 CAD? I am thinking more about the quality, speed, and
FAT32 formatting vs FAT16.

Can't help you there. I'm not familiar with either brand of card. I just know
that the bargain-basement high-speed cards from reputable dealers are every bit
as good if not better than most name-brands, who now sell on name-alone instead
of quality (just like what happened to all of Nikon 2 decades ago). From what
I've read online only 2 or 3 companies actually make *all* the cards. Different
distribution companies just brand them with their own names. Newer generic-brand
distribution companies sell the very same cards starting out at very low prices
just to get their foot in the market door. The advertised speed of the card is
almost always for their read-speed, not their write-speed. Check out that CHDK
benchmark page to see some clear differences in advertised rates vs. true
write-speeds, even on famous higher-priced brand name cards. Yes, fast
read-speeds will help when dumping your photos to your computer, but that's when
you have the time to wait. Fast read-speed advertising is useless information to
me. Write-speed is what's important and few manufacturers advertise that because
it's always slower than the read-speed. Being sometimes less than half the
read-speed.

My advice? Buy one of each and test them in your camera with CHDK's in-camera
benchmark feature later. You can then help others to know if they are worth
buying or not. Make a sacrifice and risk for the photo community just like the
rest of us all did at one time. Now it's your turn. Consider it payment for this
valuable advice.

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 23:09:19 GMT, gA wrote:

I will do that in the next few months, Jack. Actually, I will go
buy that ATP card and use it on my trip for later reporting.
There, now we are even!

I like to 'listen' to everyone's advice, but I decide what to 'buy
into'. You make a lot of sense and I understand most of your
comments, that's why I will implement them. Cheers.
- gA

Av mode, widest aperture set for Custom default, and bright lights

I forgot all about the "Safety Shift" feature in the S3, mostly because I never
depend on it. I tested it once and thought "Eeeewww." I hate when any camera
wants to try to automatically compensate for some setting I chose. I will
intentionally underexpose often to capture the natural ambience of a scene. But
for your needs it might be just the one extra feature needed to top off your
list of requirements. You can find this setting in the Record Mode, Menu,
Safety Shift, On/Off

If you have that turned on then when in Av mode the camera will automatically
bump the aperture value to compensate when the shutter-speed alone can't
compensate for brighter light levels. pg. 60 Advanced User Manual

So use that too if you don't want to futz with manually changing the aperture
while in Av mode.

You were mostly concerned with lower light levels and noise, so I didn't tailor
my thinking to ways you can compensate for brighter situations.

Okay, end of advice. (free of charge this time, no need to buy an extra
unknown-brand SD card)

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 23:49:39 GMT, Jack Johnson wrote:

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 23:09:19 GMT, gA wrote:

I will do that in the next few months, Jack. Actually, I will go
buy that ATP card and use it on my trip for later reporting.
There, now we are even!

I like to 'listen' to everyone's advice, but I decide what to 'buy
into'. You make a lot of sense and I understand most of your
comments, that's why I will implement them. Cheers.
- gA

Av mode, widest aperture set for Custom default, and bright lights

I forgot all about the "Safety Shift" feature in the S3, mostly because I never
depend on it. I tested it once and thought "Eeeewww." I hate when any camera
wants to try to automatically compensate for some setting I chose. I will
intentionally underexpose often to capture the natural ambience of a scene. But
for your needs it might be just the one extra feature needed to top off your
list of requirements. You can find this setting in the Record Mode, Menu,
Safety Shift, On/Off

If you have that turned on then when in Av mode the camera will automatically
bump the aperture value to compensate when the shutter-speed alone can't
compensate for brighter light levels. pg. 60 Advanced User Manual

So use that too if you don't want to futz with manually changing the aperture
while in Av mode.

You were mostly concerned with lower light levels and noise, so I didn't tailor
my thinking to ways you can compensate for brighter situations.

Okay, end of advice. (free of charge this time, no need to buy an extra
unknown-brand SD card)

p.s. You can have it engage the Safety Shift feature for your Custom setting
only. "Save Settings" to Custom mode also saves all your Record Menu settings.
Of which "Safety Shift" is a part. This way you don't need to leave Safety Shift
on after saving your Custom settings. Where it might accidentally screw up, or
take-over, your normal P, Av, Tv, or M modes if left "On" all the time.

In article V5Bzi.89400$rX4.72561@pd7urf2no, wrote:
With recent assistance I received from this NG I decided to buy a
Canon S3 IS, which best suits my needs. After trying it withthe
16Mb card that it comes with, I realized that it takes too long
between taking one picture and the next. I went out and bought a
Kodak High Performance 4 GB (SDHC), and still the same problem.

Other than accepting the camera's limitations, is there anything I
can do to speed up the time it takes between taking pictures?

Thanks again for any help you may be able to provide. - gA
Yes, turn it off of AUTO mode.