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#151
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Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?
On 1/22/2017 4:35 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , PeterN wrote: I would be very skeptical about claims that one needs Windows 10 to handle 4k displays, because that is managed by the graphics card, and all that is required is a driver compatible with an older version of Windows. Such things do exist; there are many for Windows Vista and 7, for example. it may be possible if you hunt for the appropriate drivers and any other support software that may be needed, but that's a hassle and not everyone will bother (or even know where to look). with win10, support is built in, so other than the occasional edge case, it will work out of the box. Windows 10 is *not* required for 4K displays. i didn't say win10 was required. i said it works out of the box without any fuss. Since this is not an OS-level issue, it absolutely is an os issue. without os level support, it's *not* going to work unless the app explicitly supports it, which is not likely. most people who have done graphics using a PC will not find it difficult to get the requisite drivers for their specific graphics card. some might not, but most will since most users are *not* geeks, particularly those who do graphics for a living. My daughter who uses a PC, and is a creative director, uses Windows 7 at home and a Mac in her office, has no graphics issues. And since she works from home several days a week, she regularly transfers files between her two machines. Does she use 4k screens? No. Very little of her work is for print. Then I don't think this relates to the possible problems of using 4k screens. Does it? It certainly does, as collaboration is a big factor. collaboration has nothing to do with using a 4k display. Also, I should have mentioned that the amount of her work for printing is sold by her agent. Her share ranges from $50 for an 8x10 up to $750. The agent charges a lot more as the agent needs a profit. My daughter really doesn't care what the agent's share is. even more irrelevant. Right. Processing for print is irrelevant. it is for the topic being discussed, which has nothing whatsoever to do with printing. Sorry, I forgot the topic can only be what you want it to be. -- PeterN |
#152
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Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?
In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote: I have multiple different papers, all on 24" rolls. I prefer canvas and have both Canon and Red River rolls. I use Epson for luster, glossy, semimatte and matte papers. Canvas is generally the only "Fine Art" paper I use, but for special purposes will order up whatever a customer wants. Usually for special order papers I'll use Epson. An example would be the higher priced Epson canvas papers such as Exhibition Canvas Satin or Exhibition Canvas Glosss. No wonder you can't tell one color space from another! Obviously you are so clueless there is no way to even talk about it. The fact that I can and do print on a dozen or so different high quality papers actually means nothing at all about a discussion of color space. Of course it means something! Even without changing printers and inks, each of those different media have different color gamuts and few will have the ability to match AdobeRGB. If they didn't have different gamuts you wouldn't need to select their particular print profile when using them. Logic never was your best foot forward, eh? Someone with a broader experience base makes it very likely they have a better chance of having been able to compare differences in colorspace than those with significantly less of a base, such as you and nospam for example... that someone sure as hell isn't you. It is exactly that type of logic that suggests neither of you understand colorspace well enough to make valid observations. while i can't speak for eric, i can assure you i'm *very* knowledgeable about colour management and colour space, having written a couple of photoshop plug-ins (mac/win) as well as native apps (mac). all you've done is pretend you know everything (which you clearly do not) and spout insults. you're a total farce. keeping everything in srgb may be easier (which apparently is all you can manage), but it's *not* the way to get the best results. So other than claim you know everything, and again spouting insults, did you have anything to say that logically connected to this topic? i've done neither. you are delusional. False proclaimation that denys what you just said, and then more Ad Hominem... more bull**** from you. you've yet to discuss the actual topic. you've provided no facts. all you've done is brag that you have an eizo display, an epson printer and various papers, which somehow makes you the expert. you're a joke. We all do feel sorry for you. doubtful, not that it matters. however, what is very clear is that everyone is laughing at you and your ignorant comments and repeated ad hominem attacks. Again, nothing from you but proclamations and Ad Hominem. you have that backwards. again. you could, you know, actually discuss colour management, rather than play games. but you won't. |
#153
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Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?
In article , PeterN
wrote: Windows 10 is *not* required for 4K displays. i didn't say win10 was required. i said it works out of the box without any fuss. Since this is not an OS-level issue, it absolutely is an os issue. without os level support, it's *not* going to work unless the app explicitly supports it, which is not likely. most people who have done graphics using a PC will not find it difficult to get the requisite drivers for their specific graphics card. some might not, but most will since most users are *not* geeks, particularly those who do graphics for a living. My daughter who uses a PC, and is a creative director, uses Windows 7 at home and a Mac in her office, has no graphics issues. And since she works from home several days a week, she regularly transfers files between her two machines. Does she use 4k screens? No. Very little of her work is for print. Then I don't think this relates to the possible problems of using 4k screens. Does it? It certainly does, as collaboration is a big factor. collaboration has nothing to do with using a 4k display. Also, I should have mentioned that the amount of her work for printing is sold by her agent. Her share ranges from $50 for an 8x10 up to $750. The agent charges a lot more as the agent needs a profit. My daughter really doesn't care what the agent's share is. even more irrelevant. Right. Processing for print is irrelevant. it is for the topic being discussed, which has nothing whatsoever to do with printing. Sorry, I forgot the topic can only be what you want it to be. i never said that, which means you're lying. again. normal people make comments relevant to the topic as opposed to saying something totally unrelated. |
#154
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Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?
On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 12:49:34 -0800, Savageduck
wrote: On 2017-01-22 20:17:46 +0000, Eric Stevens said: On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 09:12:55 -0800, Savageduck wrote: On 2017-01-22 17:03:40 +0000, PeterN said: On 1/22/2017 2:48 AM, Eric Stevens wrote: snip When you construct a print from RGB colors you have access only to colors within the three-pointed three-color RGB triangle. This is fine for an RGB printer but Epson has far more colors than this available. Basically, they have colours which can be generated from within an eight-pointed eight-colour polygon. LR and PS know nothing about these which is why Epson says 'leave it to the printer'. I posted an article about this when I first got the P800 and the results can be astonishing. Very true. It seems to me that one should be able to see pretty close to the printed colors. I have heard that soft proofing accomplishes this. Yet, if you leave color management to the printers, will one be able to see the final image onscreen? I am asking seriously. If you relinquish color management to the printer you are waiving all the work you had done in software, and you are rolling the dice with regard to print results matching your intentions worked for in LR or PS Soft proofing is the best compromise in making final tweaks before producing a print. I don't think that can be quite right. The work you have done in the software manifests itself in the image you see on your screen and this is the image you feed to the printer. At this point you can choose between the computer managing the mixing of the colors of the printing process via an ICC profile or the computer managing the mixing of the printing process. Either way you are not losing "all the work you had done in the software". There is something about what you have written there which doesn't read right, especially when it comes to the printer managing color which you have not addressed. That's what I intended when I spoke about "the computer managing the mixing of the computer process". -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#155
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Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?
On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 16:08:51 -0800, Savageduck
wrote: On 2017-01-22 23:35:34 +0000, Eric Stevens said: On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 20:48:49 +1300, Eric Stevens wrote: On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 19:33:40 -0800, Savageduck wrote: On 2017-01-22 03:06:53 +0000, Eric Stevens said: On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 18:21:01 -0800, Savageduck wrote: On 2017-01-22 01:05:47 +0000, Eric Stevens said: On Sat, 21 Jan 2017 15:18:29 -0800, Savageduck wrote: --- snip --- If not how are you supposed to apply paper/printer specific icc profiles? I don't know how this gets on with non-Epson papers but I now understand what Epson is doing with their own papers. When you construct a print from RGB colors you have access only to colors within the three-pointed three-color RGB triangle. This is fine for an RGB printer but Epson has far more colors than this available. Basically, they have colours which can be generated from within an eight-pointed eight-colour polygon. LR and PS know nothing about these which is why Epson says 'leave it to the printer'. I posted an article about this when I first got the P800 and the results can be astonishing. I've just downloaded an uptodate driver and Epson seems to have slightly changed their tune. Meantime the following article throws an interesting light on the subject. http://theonlinephotographer.typepad...0-printer.html or http://tinyurl.com/gkwaar4 I will return with more information if I find any. That was very interesting especially when it came to the color management question. It seems that he got better results with printer management with MacOS, though he hedged by saying there were times that better results could be obtained by using computer control and matched profiles. Also that with MacOS he was able to obtain a wide gamut with printer management. What was interesting was that with Windows and printer color management there was no wider gamut available than sRGB, so for Windows users he recommends using software color management with appropriate profiles. I don't think it's correct that Windows has no wider gamut than sRGB. See https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/win...-path-overview or http://tinyurl.com/zc46qky and https://www.google.co.nz/#q=windows+xps+print+path It looks as though Windows has introduced a new printing process to run alongside the old. The second cite says (among other things): "Native support of advanced color profiles, which include 32 bits per channel (bpc), CMYK, named-colors, n-inks, and native support of transparency and gradients." My current experience on this Mac with the R2880 is, my best, and most consistant results come with assigning color management to LR or PS with a matched profile, so I am not going to fix things which ain't broke. The bottom line, it seems to me is that for that reviewer, the P800 produces perceptibly better prints than the Rx880 printers, but those differences are subtle. Both you and he seem to be very happy with the performance of the P800, and that is a good thing. For now my R2880 has not faltered, and the P800 or P600 are going to be worthy replacements when my workhorse R2880 is put out to pasture. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#156
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Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?
On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 16:11:19 -0500, PeterN
wrote: On 1/22/2017 1:37 PM, nospam wrote: In article , PeterN wrote: I would be very skeptical about claims that one needs Windows 10 to handle 4k displays, because that is managed by the graphics card, and all that is required is a driver compatible with an older version of Windows. Such things do exist; there are many for Windows Vista and 7, for example. it may be possible if you hunt for the appropriate drivers and any other support software that may be needed, but that's a hassle and not everyone will bother (or even know where to look). with win10, support is built in, so other than the occasional edge case, it will work out of the box. Windows 10 is *not* required for 4K displays. i didn't say win10 was required. i said it works out of the box without any fuss. Since this is not an OS-level issue, it absolutely is an os issue. without os level support, it's *not* going to work unless the app explicitly supports it, which is not likely. most people who have done graphics using a PC will not find it difficult to get the requisite drivers for their specific graphics card. some might not, but most will since most users are *not* geeks, particularly those who do graphics for a living. My daughter who uses a PC, and is a creative director, uses Windows 7 at home and a Mac in her office, has no graphics issues. And since she works from home several days a week, she regularly transfers files between her two machines. Does she use 4k screens? No. Very little of her work is for print. Then I don't think this relates to the possible problems of using 4k screens. Does it? It certainly does, as collaboration is a big factor. collaboration has nothing to do with using a 4k display. Also, I should have mentioned that the amount of her work for printing is sold by her agent. Her share ranges from $50 for an 8x10 up to $750. The agent charges a lot more as the agent needs a profit. My daughter really doesn't care what the agent's share is. even more irrelevant. Right. Processing for print is irrelevant. It is for 4k screens. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#157
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Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?
On 1/22/2017 9:22 PM, nospam wrote:
snip normal people make comments relevant to the topic as opposed to saying something totally unrelated. We agree completely. No response to the applicability of the poster's comment to the poster is required, as the record is in evidence. -- PeterN |
#158
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Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?
On 1/22/2017 10:12 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 16:11:19 -0500, PeterN wrote: On 1/22/2017 1:37 PM, nospam wrote: In article , PeterN wrote: I would be very skeptical about claims that one needs Windows 10 to handle 4k displays, because that is managed by the graphics card, and all that is required is a driver compatible with an older version of Windows. Such things do exist; there are many for Windows Vista and 7, for example. it may be possible if you hunt for the appropriate drivers and any other support software that may be needed, but that's a hassle and not everyone will bother (or even know where to look). with win10, support is built in, so other than the occasional edge case, it will work out of the box. Windows 10 is *not* required for 4K displays. i didn't say win10 was required. i said it works out of the box without any fuss. Since this is not an OS-level issue, it absolutely is an os issue. without os level support, it's *not* going to work unless the app explicitly supports it, which is not likely. most people who have done graphics using a PC will not find it difficult to get the requisite drivers for their specific graphics card. some might not, but most will since most users are *not* geeks, particularly those who do graphics for a living. My daughter who uses a PC, and is a creative director, uses Windows 7 at home and a Mac in her office, has no graphics issues. And since she works from home several days a week, she regularly transfers files between her two machines. Does she use 4k screens? No. Very little of her work is for print. Then I don't think this relates to the possible problems of using 4k screens. Does it? It certainly does, as collaboration is a big factor. collaboration has nothing to do with using a 4k display. Also, I should have mentioned that the amount of her work for printing is sold by her agent. Her share ranges from $50 for an 8x10 up to $750. The agent charges a lot more as the agent needs a profit. My daughter really doesn't care what the agent's share is. even more irrelevant. Right. Processing for print is irrelevant. It is for 4k screens. Are you saying that editing using a 4k screen will give a different print image, than edits made when using a different screen, all other things being equal? -- PeterN |
#159
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Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote: If not how are you supposed to apply paper/printer specific icc profiles? I don't know how this gets on with non-Epson papers but I now understand what Epson is doing with their own papers. When you construct a print from RGB colors you have access only to colors within the three-pointed three-color RGB triangle. This is fine for an RGB printer but Epson has far more colors than this available. Basically, they have colours which can be generated from within an eight-pointed eight-colour polygon. LR and PS know nothing about these which is why Epson says 'leave it to the printer'. I posted an article about this when I first got the P800 and the results can be astonishing. I've just downloaded an uptodate driver and Epson seems to have slightly changed their tune. Meantime the following article throws an interesting light on the subject. http://theonlinephotographer.typepad...her/2015/09/pr oduct-review-epson-surecolor-p800-printer.html or http://tinyurl.com/gkwaar4 I will return with more information if I find any. That was very interesting especially when it came to the color management question. It seems that he got better results with printer management with MacOS, though he hedged by saying there were times that better results could be obtained by using computer control and matched profiles. Also that with MacOS he was able to obtain a wide gamut with printer management. What was interesting was that with Windows and printer color management there was no wider gamut available than sRGB, so for Windows users he recommends using software color management with appropriate profiles. I don't think it's correct that Windows has no wider gamut than sRGB. that's not what it said. this is what it said: [Ctein replies: Greg, as I understand this (from Dave Polaschek), it's not an Epson thing but a Windows thing. The chunk of Windows code that the Epson driver talks to to print only supports sRGB. So, it might get better in future versions of Windows.] later: [Ctein replies: Ferdinand, thanks for that report. OK, so there may be ways to get out of sRGB space when printing under Windows. Charles made that observation earlier in the comments, too. So noted.] See https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/win...windows-print- path-overview or http://tinyurl.com/zc46qky and https://www.google.co.nz/#q=windows+xps+print+path It looks as though Windows has introduced a new printing process to run alongside the old. The second cite says (among other things): "Native support of advanced color profiles, which include 32 bits per channel (bpc), CMYK, named-colors, n-inks, and native support of transparency and gradients." it's catching up to mac os. |
#160
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Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?
In article ,
Eric Stevens wrote: On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 18:49:55 +0100, android wrote: In article , Eric Stevens wrote: For the last several years I have relied on an (almost) matched pairs of Dell 2410 monitors - and now one has died. Not really surprising, considering it was +8 years old, but it was a bloody good monitor. I am now faced with the task of replacing it. I don't want to just replace it as it would amount to no more than installing 8 year old technology and I have been frantically beating around the bush trying to decide what to do. I am considering all kinds of options but I don't want to go into them now. One possibility which is raising sweat to my brow is the use of a high gamut monitor such as the Dell Ultrasharp 25 UP2516D http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-...h-premiercolor -up 2516d/apd/210-agjq/monitors-monitor-accessories or http://tinyurl.com/hdpepts My reading on the subject suggests that monitors such as this can have problems with non-color-managed applications such as many that can be found on the Internet and can also create problems when editing images in all kinds of software. I would like to know if anyone has had any experience with such monitors and what their comments may be. Should I consider them and, if so, with what caveats in mind? I have an US and is reluctant to get another. Got you plleeeease test this one for me? http://www.canonrumors.com/reviews/r...dobe-rgb-monit or/ Sorree - out of my price range. :-( This one then? https://www.inet.se/produkt/2200043/benq-24-bl2420u#specs -- teleportation kills |
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