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Nikon new release D7100



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 2nd 13, 06:41 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Nikon new release D7100

In article , PeterN
wrote:

No AA filter = lots of sampling errors, some visible, some less.

it depends on the subject. take a photo where there's very little
detail, such as a solid colour wall, and there won't be any aliasing.
take a photo of something with a lot of detail and there will be.

And your experience using one is?
Or is your comment made based on a survey.


What he said is *precisely* correct.

displaying your ignorance again, i see.

it's based on a solid understanding of signal theory and aliasing,
something you apparently lack and something that affects *all* digital
cameras. if there's detail beyond nyquist and no antialias filter to
bandlimit it, there *will* be aliasing, guaranteed.


That is absolutely and unequivocally true. (Granted
that it is a technical statement requiring the reader
understand what is meant by both "nyquist" and "no
antialias filter", which as it happens is not the case
for most readers here.)

It's not quite that simple. If you wade through all of
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tu...solution.shtml you will
eventually reach the conclusion:


Do you understand what he said, or what these
"conclusions" are saying?

It should also be pointed out that the anti-alias
filtering effectiveness of lens diffusion is very
ineffective compared to a properly designed birefringent
optical filter (which incidentally is itself relatively
low on the scale of effectiveness compared to digital or
analog electronic filter).

"Conclusions

So, do sensors outresolve lenses? It depends on the lens you use,
the properties of the light, the aperture and the format. Small
format sensors may have surpassed the limit, this is, in most cases
they are lens-limited in terms of resolution.


That is only specifically true, and not generally true.
Few lenses are so poor at all apertures that they can
provide an adequate anti-aliasing filter, and few are so
good that at all apertures they do not provide at least
some of the desired affect of an anti-aliasing filter.

But virtually none of them are good anti-aliasing
filters.

It is easier to
correct aberrations for a smaller light circle though, so you can
approach diffraction-limited resolutions for lower f-numbers. The
signal-to-noise ratio, however, imposes an inflexible limit to the
effective resolution of the whole system, mostly due to photon shot
noise.


That last sentence is out of context and has no
significant meaning.

Note that the above section contradicts the statement
just above it claiming that "in most caes they are
lens-limited in terms of resolution". In fact, they are
not.

Sensors for larger formats are approaching the diffraction limit of
real lenses, and it is more difficult to get high levels of
aberration suppression for them. The point is that you cannot fully
exploit the resolution potential of high-resolution sensors with
regular mass-produced lenses, particularly for larger formats.


The last sentence is pure fabrication.

You cannot compare the limits of two different photographic systems
looking at a print because the variables that determine the
subjective perception come into play. Different systems can provide
comparable results on paper under certain conditions (the circle of
confusion reasoning explains how that is possible), but the limit
of a system must be evaluated considering the pixel as the minimum
circle of confusion.."


That is correct.

One of my friends, a fashion photographer, uses his D800E. His results
are fantastic. A well respected fine art photographer also uses one, and
she is quite happy with the results. The main reason I did not get one,
is that I didn't nbeed that feature for the type of shooting I do.

that's nice.

being happy with the results has absolutely nothing to do with whether
or not there is aliasing.


Dead on correct! Nobody would be able to spot aliasing
distortion in a single image. And if shown two
identical images differring only in the amount of
aliasing distortion (an exceedingly difficult
comparison to generate) most people might well be able
to see some difference, but virtually none would be able
to identify the cause. Worse yet, some people in some
cases would prefer the image that has the aliasing
distortion!


He may be technically correct,


at least you finally admit i'm correct.

but the discussion is about commercially
acceptable results.


no it isn't.

the original post to which i responded was about *sampling* *errors*,
not what is commercially acceptable:
No AA filter = lots of sampling errors, some visible, some less.


Creative directors don't give a rat's rear end about
technicalities.


yes they do.

They look for the impression created by the image. (At
least the successful ones have that standard.)


that's true, but it does not negate knowing about the technical side of
things.

the truly successful ones understand both.
  #22  
Old March 2nd 13, 07:01 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 703
Default Nikon new release D7100

On 3/2/2013 12:41 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , PeterN
wrote:

No AA filter = lots of sampling errors, some visible, some less.

it depends on the subject. take a photo where there's very little
detail, such as a solid colour wall, and there won't be any aliasing.
take a photo of something with a lot of detail and there will be.

And your experience using one is?
Or is your comment made based on a survey.

What he said is *precisely* correct.

displaying your ignorance again, i see.

it's based on a solid understanding of signal theory and aliasing,
something you apparently lack and something that affects *all* digital
cameras. if there's detail beyond nyquist and no antialias filter to
bandlimit it, there *will* be aliasing, guaranteed.

That is absolutely and unequivocally true. (Granted
that it is a technical statement requiring the reader
understand what is meant by both "nyquist" and "no
antialias filter", which as it happens is not the case
for most readers here.)

It's not quite that simple. If you wade through all of
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tu...solution.shtml you will
eventually reach the conclusion:

Do you understand what he said, or what these
"conclusions" are saying?

It should also be pointed out that the anti-alias
filtering effectiveness of lens diffusion is very
ineffective compared to a properly designed birefringent
optical filter (which incidentally is itself relatively
low on the scale of effectiveness compared to digital or
analog electronic filter).

"Conclusions

So, do sensors outresolve lenses? It depends on the lens you use,
the properties of the light, the aperture and the format. Small
format sensors may have surpassed the limit, this is, in most cases
they are lens-limited in terms of resolution.

That is only specifically true, and not generally true.
Few lenses are so poor at all apertures that they can
provide an adequate anti-aliasing filter, and few are so
good that at all apertures they do not provide at least
some of the desired affect of an anti-aliasing filter.

But virtually none of them are good anti-aliasing
filters.

It is easier to
correct aberrations for a smaller light circle though, so you can
approach diffraction-limited resolutions for lower f-numbers. The
signal-to-noise ratio, however, imposes an inflexible limit to the
effective resolution of the whole system, mostly due to photon shot
noise.

That last sentence is out of context and has no
significant meaning.

Note that the above section contradicts the statement
just above it claiming that "in most caes they are
lens-limited in terms of resolution". In fact, they are
not.

Sensors for larger formats are approaching the diffraction limit of
real lenses, and it is more difficult to get high levels of
aberration suppression for them. The point is that you cannot fully
exploit the resolution potential of high-resolution sensors with
regular mass-produced lenses, particularly for larger formats.

The last sentence is pure fabrication.

You cannot compare the limits of two different photographic systems
looking at a print because the variables that determine the
subjective perception come into play. Different systems can provide
comparable results on paper under certain conditions (the circle of
confusion reasoning explains how that is possible), but the limit
of a system must be evaluated considering the pixel as the minimum
circle of confusion.."

That is correct.

One of my friends, a fashion photographer, uses his D800E. His results
are fantastic. A well respected fine art photographer also uses one, and
she is quite happy with the results. The main reason I did not get one,
is that I didn't nbeed that feature for the type of shooting I do.

that's nice.

being happy with the results has absolutely nothing to do with whether
or not there is aliasing.

Dead on correct! Nobody would be able to spot aliasing
distortion in a single image. And if shown two
identical images differring only in the amount of
aliasing distortion (an exceedingly difficult
comparison to generate) most people might well be able
to see some difference, but virtually none would be able
to identify the cause. Worse yet, some people in some
cases would prefer the image that has the aliasing
distortion!


He may be technically correct,


at least you finally admit i'm correct.


Only partially.



but the discussion is about commercially
acceptable results.


no it isn't.

than you changed it without fair notice.


the original post to which i responded was about *sampling* *errors*,
not what is commercially acceptable:
No AA filter = lots of sampling errors, some visible, some less.


Creative directors don't give a rat's rear end about
technicalities.


yes they do.

Typical ****ing from you.

They look for the impression created by the image. (At
least the successful ones have that standard.)


that's true, but it does not negate knowing about the technical side of
things.

the truly successful ones understand both.

They are too busy to get involved with techno-babble. They want results.

BTW I have business and personal relationships with several, and
categorically state that you are blowing smoke out of your ass. IOW you
don't know WTF you are talking about.
--
PeterN
  #23  
Old March 2nd 13, 07:12 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 703
Default Nikon new release D7100

On 3/2/2013 12:41 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , PeterN
wrote:

No AA filter = lots of sampling errors, some visible, some less.

it depends on the subject. take a photo where there's very little
detail, such as a solid colour wall, and there won't be any aliasing.
take a photo of something with a lot of detail and there will be.

And your experience using one is?
Or is your comment made based on a survey.

displaying your ignorance again, i see.


Yes I am totally ignorant of the factual basis for your statement.


at least you admit it, and the more you babble the more clear it
becomes.

All I know is what works and what doesn't. Your past history gives us
little reason to accept your conclusion, without proof. This is
especially true since you appear never to have used the cameras under
discussion.


this has nothing whatsoever to do with any particular camera. it's how
*all* digital cameras work (and cd players and much more).

go read a book on signal theory if you want proof, not that i expect
you to understand much past the first page.

it's based on a solid understanding of signal theory and aliasing,
something you apparently lack and something that affects *all* digital
cameras. if there's detail beyond nyquist and no antialias filter to
bandlimit it, there *will* be aliasing, guaranteed.

One of my friends, a fashion photographer, uses his D800E. His results
are fantastic. A well respected fine art photographer also uses one, and
she is quite happy with the results. The main reason I did not get one,
is that I didn't nbeed that feature for the type of shooting I do.

that's nice.

being happy with the results has absolutely nothing to do with whether
or not there is aliasing.


For the individuals I mentioned being happy means they are well paid.
Any any faults you claim to exist are well within the bounds of high
standard commercial acceptability. Just as circles of confusion can be
commercially acceptable.


once again, being happy with the results or having something that's
commercially acceptable doesn't mean there isn't aliasing.

if there's detail beyond nyquist, there *will* be aliasing. period.
there is no getting around this.

BTW I suspect that you are not aware that for high fashion the results
from Apple monitors and unacceptable, because they do not accurately
produce the necessary gradations in the shadows. For that work people
use other monitors such as high end NEC, LaCie, at the lower end and
Eizo, at the upper end.


so what? different tools for different jobs.

apple targets the masses. for every eizo that's sold, apple sells
hundreds of imacs, macbooks, displays, iphones, ipads and more.


So that's irrelevant to my point. Non-avid photographers do not want, or
see the need for undertone subtlety. Or, the cost may be outside their
budget.



Yes but this is a photography group. Many of us like to discuss what's
best for photographic purposes, within our spending budgets. While I
would like a LaCie, or an Eizo, Both are outside my budget. So I settle
for an NEC, which BTW may, or may not outsell Apple products.

--
PeterN
  #24  
Old March 2nd 13, 07:17 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Floyd L. Davidson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,138
Default Nikon new release D7100

PeterN wrote:
the truly successful ones understand both.

They are too busy to get involved with techno-babble. They want results.

BTW I have business and personal relationships with
several, and categorically state that you are blowing
smoke out of your ass. IOW you don't know WTF you are
talking about.


Peter, you are full of prunes. Take a hike and talk
to yourself, nobody else need hear this crap.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)
  #25  
Old March 2nd 13, 07:30 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Nikon new release D7100

In article , PeterN
wrote:

BTW I suspect that you are not aware that for high fashion the results
from Apple monitors and unacceptable, because they do not accurately
produce the necessary gradations in the shadows. For that work people
use other monitors such as high end NEC, LaCie, at the lower end and
Eizo, at the upper end.


so what? different tools for different jobs.

apple targets the masses. for every eizo that's sold, apple sells
hundreds of imacs, macbooks, displays, iphones, ipads and more.


So that's irrelevant to my point. Non-avid photographers do not want, or
see the need for undertone subtlety. Or, the cost may be outside their
budget.


your point itself is irrelevant. this isn't about undertone subtlety or
what apple sells.

this discussion is about aliasing until you tried to twist it into
something else because you have nothing better to do than argue.

apple caters to the masses while eizo caters to the pros who do precise
colour work. if you think apple should make high end displays or eizo
should make low end displays, feel free to contact either company and
voice your concerns.

either way, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of aliasing
and the nikon d800e and its lack of an aa filter.

Yes but this is a photography group. Many of us like to discuss what's
best for photographic purposes, within our spending budgets. While I
would like a LaCie, or an Eizo, Both are outside my budget. So I settle
for an NEC, which BTW may, or may not outsell Apple products.


nobody but you gives a **** if it outsells apple products. different
products for different tasks.
  #26  
Old March 2nd 13, 07:30 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Nikon new release D7100

In article , PeterN
wrote:

He may be technically correct,


at least you finally admit i'm correct.


Only partially.


nope. what i said is completely correct. again, go read a book on
signal theory.

but the discussion is about commercially
acceptable results.


no it isn't.

than you changed it without fair notice.


i didn't change a thing.

the original post to which i responded was about *sampling* *errors*,
not what is commercially acceptable:
No AA filter = lots of sampling errors, some visible, some less.


Creative directors don't give a rat's rear end about
technicalities.


yes they do.

Typical ****ing from you.

They look for the impression created by the image. (At
least the successful ones have that standard.)


that's true, but it does not negate knowing about the technical side of
things.

the truly successful ones understand both.

They are too busy to get involved with techno-babble. They want results.


they can't get results if technical issues prevent it.

nobody, not even creative directors, can get around sampling theory.

BTW I have business and personal relationships with several, and
categorically state that you are blowing smoke out of your ass. IOW you
don't know WTF you are talking about.


except you're wrong, which means *you* don't know wtf you are talking
about.

furthermore, even if your personal relationships included the pope, it
would not invalidate nyquist/shannon. perhaps you've heard of them,
although i suspect not.

but since you and your cohorts think that you know better, why don't
you put your money where your mouth is and go prove it. you'll be
*very* famous if you can demonstrate nyquist/shannon is bunk.
  #27  
Old March 2nd 13, 10:17 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 703
Default Nikon new release D7100

On 3/2/2013 1:30 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , PeterN
wrote:

BTW I suspect that you are not aware that for high fashion the results
from Apple monitors and unacceptable, because they do not accurately
produce the necessary gradations in the shadows. For that work people
use other monitors such as high end NEC, LaCie, at the lower end and
Eizo, at the upper end.

so what? different tools for different jobs.

apple targets the masses. for every eizo that's sold, apple sells
hundreds of imacs, macbooks, displays, iphones, ipads and more.


So that's irrelevant to my point. Non-avid photographers do not want, or
see the need for undertone subtlety. Or, the cost may be outside their
budget.


your point itself is irrelevant. this isn't about undertone subtlety or
what apple sells.


If you bother reading, I said that Apple monitors are unsuitable for
critical photographic work. I'm glad you agree.



this discussion is about aliasing until you tried to twist it into
something else because you have nothing better to do than argue.

apple caters to the masses while eizo caters to the pros who do precise
colour work. if you think apple should make high end displays or eizo
should make low end displays, feel free to contact either company and
voice your concerns.

either way, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of aliasing
and the nikon d800e and its lack of an aa filter.


Just where did I ever say there was no aliasing?
The issue is how the filter, or lack thereof affects the image. Or, have
you forgotten that the purpose of photography is to create images.


Yes but this is a photography group. Many of us like to discuss what's
best for photographic purposes, within our spending budgets. While I
would like a LaCie, or an Eizo, Both are outside my budget. So I settle
for an NEC, which BTW may, or may not outsell Apple products.


nobody but you gives a **** if it outsells apple products. different
products for different tasks.


So you have never ranted about sales of Apple products. If you make it
worth my while, I could easily show your unsupported claims about Apple
sales. Even in this thread, you were the first to mention: "apple [sic]
caters to the masses. Oh! I get it. Apple wants to become a priest.


BTW:
It is easy to tell when you are losing an argument. Like all trolls you
resort to personal insults.

--
PeterN
  #28  
Old March 2nd 13, 10:19 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 703
Default Nikon new release D7100

On 3/2/2013 1:17 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
the truly successful ones understand both.

They are too busy to get involved with techno-babble. They want results.

BTW I have business and personal relationships with
several, and categorically state that you are blowing
smoke out of your ass. IOW you don't know WTF you are
talking about.


Peter, you are full of prunes. Take a hike and talk
to yourself, nobody else need hear this crap.

Wattasmatter Floyd, have you lost interest in reality, or is the Winter
getting to you.

--
PeterN
  #29  
Old March 2nd 13, 10:25 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 703
Default Nikon new release D7100

On 3/2/2013 1:30 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , PeterN
wrote:

He may be technically correct,

at least you finally admit i'm correct.


Only partially.


nope. what i said is completely correct. again, go read a book on
signal theory.


i only care how it affects my photography. You have yet to produce any
image.



but the discussion is about commercially
acceptable results.

no it isn't.

than you changed it without fair notice.


i didn't change a thing.


So you lost your ability to read, or is it your ability to comprehend
what you write?
the original post to which i responded was about *sampling* *errors*,
not what is commercially acceptable:
No AA filter = lots of sampling errors, some visible, some less.

Creative directors don't give a rat's rear end about
technicalities.

yes they do.

Typical ****ing from you.

They look for the impression created by the image. (At
least the successful ones have that standard.)

that's true, but it does not negate knowing about the technical side of
things.

the truly successful ones understand both.

They are too busy to get involved with techno-babble. They want results.


they can't get results if technical issues prevent it.

nobody, not even creative directors, can get around sampling theory.

BTW I have business and personal relationships with several, and
categorically state that you are blowing smoke out of your ass. IOW you
don't know WTF you are talking about.


except you're wrong, which means *you* don't know wtf you are talking
about.

furthermore, even if your personal relationships included the pope, it
would not invalidate nyquist/shannon. perhaps you've heard of them,
although i suspect not.


I used to know an engineer who was only interested in producing a
perfectly shaped wave. His company went out of business.

but since you and your cohorts think that you know better, why don't
you put your money where your mouth is and go prove it. you'll be
*very* famous if you can demonstrate nyquist/shannon is bunk.


Maybe they are. All I care about is image production. Other than that
you can take your theory and......

Bye.
--
PeterN
  #30  
Old March 2nd 13, 11:31 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Nikon new release D7100

On Sat, 02 Mar 2013 13:30:41 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , PeterN
wrote:

He may be technically correct,

at least you finally admit i'm correct.


Only partially.


nope. what i said is completely correct. again, go read a book on
signal theory.

but the discussion is about commercially
acceptable results.

no it isn't.

than you changed it without fair notice.


i didn't change a thing.

the original post to which i responded was about *sampling* *errors*,
not what is commercially acceptable:
No AA filter = lots of sampling errors, some visible, some less.

Creative directors don't give a rat's rear end about
technicalities.

yes they do.

Typical ****ing from you.

They look for the impression created by the image. (At
least the successful ones have that standard.)

that's true, but it does not negate knowing about the technical side of
things.

the truly successful ones understand both.

They are too busy to get involved with techno-babble. They want results.


they can't get results if technical issues prevent it.

nobody, not even creative directors, can get around sampling theory.

BTW I have business and personal relationships with several, and
categorically state that you are blowing smoke out of your ass. IOW you
don't know WTF you are talking about.


except you're wrong, which means *you* don't know wtf you are talking
about.

furthermore, even if your personal relationships included the pope, it
would not invalidate nyquist/shannon. perhaps you've heard of them,
although i suspect not.

but since you and your cohorts think that you know better, why don't
you put your money where your mouth is and go prove it. you'll be
*very* famous if you can demonstrate nyquist/shannon is bunk.


I think he is claiming that your knowledge of creative directors is
bunk.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
 




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