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#151
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Nikon new release D7100
David Taylor wrote:
On 12/03/2013 13:18, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: [] Unless you read that as "hehe, David is soo stupid, he actually believes that the D800E can't have moire, the idiot". Which is not what was written! It's how it comes across to me, and is typical of that particular poster. If I have done him an injustice this time, I would apologise. Maybe you're on a hair trigger with this poster ... I think in this case you overreacted a bit. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor -Wolfgang |
#152
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Nikon new release D7100
David Taylor wrote:
If you read what I wrote, I'm saying that we may be approaching, or we may have reached, a "sufficiently high" pixel density for many people for much of the time. That's not an unqualified "are". Which means that for some people it's most of the time unacceptable and for others on the average (pulling a number out of thin air (or is it a vacuum?)) every 10th or 20th image has problems. :-) Personally, I want the camera to fail me only very rarely compared to the times where I make the mistake. But that's me. What percentage of aliasing-degraded or -ruined, potentially unrepeatable shots (North polar cruise, graduation/award presentation, your child shaking the hand of Mr. President, raising the (second) flag on Iwo Jima, ...) are you willing to accept for the missing AA filter? -Wolfgang |
#153
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Nikon new release D7100
On 14/03/2013 12:29, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
David Taylor wrote: If you read what I wrote, I'm saying that we may be approaching, or we may have reached, a "sufficiently high" pixel density for many people for much of the time. That's not an unqualified "are". Which means that for some people it's most of the time unacceptable and for others on the average (pulling a number out of thin air (or is it a vacuum?)) every 10th or 20th image has problems. :-) Personally, I want the camera to fail me only very rarely compared to the times where I make the mistake. But that's me. What percentage of aliasing-degraded or -ruined, potentially unrepeatable shots (North polar cruise, graduation/award presentation, your child shaking the hand of Mr. President, raising the (second) flag on Iwo Jima, ...) are you willing to accept for the missing AA filter? -Wolfgang I don't know what percentage of images taken with the D800E (or D7100) would be unacceptable - perhaps users of those cameras will be kind enough to tell us (D7100 in due course). Clearly, you would prefer the lower percentage that having an AA filter produces, as would I on a relatively low pixel count camera. I'm not fussed about most of the situations you mention. I have been on both an Antarctic cruise and one around Svalbard, and aliasing or not was the least of my photographic worries. Exposure, cold batteries, and preventing the camera from getting wet were of far greater concern! But I take your point. Do you deliberately go for cameras with a stronger AA filter, with even lower risk? -- Cheers, David Web: http://www.satsignal.eu |
#154
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Nikon new release D7100
On 13/03/2013 18:46, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
[] Now, your 18 MPix compact camera ... how many pixels would that be on FF, and what's the widest aperture possible (and what would be the equivalent aperture for an FF camera, regarding airy disk size) and how good _is_ the lens? These limits may well be so that any possible airy disk of that (unchangeable) combination of optically average, possibly quite slow lens and humungous pixel density must cover several pixels --- in which case an AA filter --- as I understand it --- can't help anyways and can therefore be safely omitted. -Wolfgang I've not done the sums on that camera. Maximum lens aperture is f/2.8. Of course, when looked at 1:1 18 MP images from a compact camera have far more problems than aliasing! But you are right - it may be that with that combination the AA filter provides little or no benefit. Having a camera with a 27 - 810 mm equivalent range weighing just 583 grams more than makes up for image imperfections - at least in daylight. -- Cheers, David Web: http://www.satsignal.eu |
#155
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Nikon new release D7100
On 14/03/2013 11:18, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
David Taylor wrote: On 12/03/2013 13:18, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: [] Unless you read that as "hehe, David is soo stupid, he actually believes that the D800E can't have moire, the idiot". Which is not what was written! It's how it comes across to me, and is typical of that particular poster. If I have done him an injustice this time, I would apologise. Maybe you're on a hair trigger with this poster ... I think in this case you overreacted a bit. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor -Wolfgang Oh, it could well be, but I've been there before, and seen others subjected to similar treatment as well. -- Cheers, David Web: http://www.satsignal.eu |
#156
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Nikon new release D7100
David Taylor wrote:
On 14/03/2013 11:18, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: David Taylor wrote: On 12/03/2013 13:18, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: [] Unless you read that as "hehe, David is soo stupid, he actually believes that the D800E can't have moire, the idiot". Which is not what was written! It's how it comes across to me, and is typical of that particular poster. If I have done him an injustice this time, I would apologise. Maybe you're on a hair trigger with this poster ... I think in this case you overreacted a bit. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor -Wolfgang Oh, it could well be, but I've been there before, and seen others subjected to similar treatment as well. What treatment is that though... you responding with Ad Hominem when someone provides facts to refute what you've said that isn't true? Tsch... -- Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/ Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) |
#157
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Nikon new release D7100
Yes, for some purposes it has been reached: shooting pictures of very smooth blank walls that have zero texture. Do you do that often? If you so much as have a fly land on that wall, it will have detail above the Nyquist Limit. But ... the fly will not have moire! Its true that my Canon 7D, even WITH an AA filter will do serious moire if I take a picture of my LCD TV screen at exactly the wrong distance. Very serious! And that's using ANY of my five lenses! But in real use I notice no problems. Doug McDonald |
#158
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Nikon new release D7100
On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:46:34 +0100, Wolfgang Weisselberg
wrote: David Taylor wrote: On 12/03/2013 13:25, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: As for my needs: I'll stay with AA, but then I'd be happy enough with 8 MPix + (good) ISO 12,800 or more. But that's not available today, so my camera has more MPix. (My old camera had 8 MPix, and that was nearly never a concern, much less a problem. Quite unlike high ISO.) I have similar needs. Most of my images are displayed on 2-3 Mpix monitors, with the occasional A4 print (which won't be examined with a magnifying glass). Though I do mostly roughly A4-sized prints of the important photos, sometimes even roughly twice the size (in an 1:2 format), which is OK (though not very good) from a 2:3 8 MPix source. I would have preferred my recently purchased compact camera to have 8 MP rather than the 18 MP it has. In this case you can downsample in camera, and maybe it even has mRAW or sRAW ... I haven't even checked whether that has an AA filter or not. Now, your 18 MPix compact camera ... how many pixels would that be on FF, and what's the widest aperture possible (and what would be the equivalent aperture for an FF camera, regarding airy disk size) and how good _is_ the lens? These limits may well be so that any possible airy disk of that (unchangeable) combination of optically average, possibly quite slow lens and humungous pixel density must cover several pixels --- in which case an AA filter --- as I understand it --- can't help anyways and can therefore be safely omitted. That's what a lot of people have been trying to argue. For what it's worth, I agree with you. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#159
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Nikon new release D7100
David Taylor wrote:
On 13/03/2013 18:46, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: [] Now, your 18 MPix compact camera ... how many pixels would that be on FF, and what's the widest aperture possible (and what would be the equivalent aperture for an FF camera, regarding airy disk size) and how good _is_ the lens? These limits may well be so that any possible airy disk of that (unchangeable) combination of optically average, possibly quite slow lens and humungous pixel density must cover several pixels --- in which case an AA filter --- as I understand it --- can't help anyways and can therefore be safely omitted. I've not done the sums on that camera. Maximum lens aperture is f/2.8. Of course, when looked at 1:1 18 MP images from a compact camera have far more problems than aliasing! The main problems are too high expectations and too high expectations. :-) But you are right - it may be that with that combination the AA filter provides little or no benefit. Having a camera with a 27 - 810 mm equivalent range weighing just 583 grams more than makes up for image imperfections - at least in daylight. There's quite obviously a market and need. -Wolfgang |
#160
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Nikon new release D7100
David Taylor wrote:
But I take your point. Do you deliberately go for cameras with a stronger AA filter, with even lower risk? Not really, unless you count "stronger than zero". :-) -Wolfgang |
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