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Different Formats for Different Countries -- Variable Density B&W Film



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 18th 06, 12:36 AM posted to rec.photo.film+labs,rec.arts.movies.tech,alt.photography,alt.photography.schools.nyip,rec.photo.darkroom
dj_nme
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Posts: 399
Default Different Formats for Different Countries -- Variable DensityB&W Film

Tony Clarke wrote:
"David Nebenzahl" wrote


"Metric sizes" are film sizes normally stated in, well, metric measures,
like 6x9 and 9x12 (both in centimeters), as opposed to "inch"-sized
films, like 4x5, 5x7, 8x10, etc. So, counterintuitively, 9x12 film is
smaller than 4x5 film.



Except metric film sizes aren't exactly what they say they are. The
frame size of a 120 film tends to be not 6cm wide but about 5.8 cm, with 120
film being about 62mm across.


That not quite correct.
With 120 film, the film is actualy 60mm wide and the paper backing is
62mm wide.

The other variations likwise are a bit smaller
than the nominal size. It allows a bit of masking in the film holder of the
enlarger, but nevertheless is not as precise as metricists might like you to
believe.


With 120 film, most cameras have film rails that are about 1mm wide.
This results in a negative where the exposed Area is about 58mm tall.

I could claim that the pinhole camera I'm currently bashing from a
Kodak Brownie 2A is a "6x12" because it works by winding through alternate
frame numbers down the middle of the film (where the 6x6 numbers go) but the
actual image size is 54 x 108mm, being the old Kodak 116 film gate with a
strip of brass soldered each side to provide edge support for the slightly
smaller 120 film. It'll be printed using a 5 x 4 imperial enlarger (DeVere
54) with a black card mask over the neg glasses to minimise Callier flare
from the edges.

Of course 9 x 12 is smaller than 4 x 5! Those of us used to dealing in
metric know that 4 x 5 is 10 x 12.5cm - are at least it should be: if that's
the sheet film size then image size will be smaller because of the little
edge-retains in the film holder.


Sometimes the conversion from Imperial measures to Metric isn't very exact.
1 inch equals 25.4mm, so 4 inches actualy equals 100.16mm
4"x5" is actualy 100.16mm x 126mm (10.02cm x 12.6cm).
The film rails probably take up about 2mm on each edge.
This makes the actual negative about 96.16mm x 122mm (96.2cm x 12.2cm)
on a sheet of 4x5 film.

Someone on a forum - possibly not this one - confused me recently by
saying that "full plate" was 8 x 6 inches and all else was a division of
that. Sounds like the confusion over book binding classifications based on a
broadsheet being 15" x 20" except when it wasn't. I thought "full plate" was
10 x 8 inches, as the original master size for photos and respected to this
day in paper sizes. Am I wrong?

Tony Clarke


I think that would depend on which county you were asking for a "full
plate" in.
From memory, the UK usualy has smaller sizes and continental Europeam
countries tends to have longer or taller formats (depending on which
country).
In Australia, we seem to have tended to go with the USA on film sizes
and photographic paper.
Here a "full" plate would be 8x10 inches.
  #12  
Old October 18th 06, 12:45 AM posted to rec.photo.film+labs,rec.arts.movies.tech,alt.photography,alt.photography.schools.nyip,rec.photo.darkroom
Nicholas O. Lindan
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Posts: 1,227
Default Different Formats for Different Countries -- Variable Density B&W Film

"Tony Clarke" wrote

[someone said] "full plate" was 8 x 6 inches and all
else was a division of that ... broadsheet
being 15" x 20", "full plate" was 10 x 8 inches


I tried to figure this all out many times and gave up
many times.

As near as I can tell photographic paper sizes have nothing
to do with common ordinary paper sizes, which in the US a

8.5 x 11" - American
8.5 x 14" - American legal
9 x 12" - Architectural, some artists' pads
A4 - DIN standard[s] - And see this for a mess'o'stanards:
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-paper.html

None of which evenly divide or multiply into 4x6,
8x10/4x5, 5x7 or 11x14.

Which leads me to think that photographic sheet film and
paper sizes are drawn from standard sizes of:

o Pre-blanked sheet metal: Daguerreotypes & Tintypes
o Window panes: Glass negatives

All of which come in different standard sizes ... and
then there is metric.

except when it [they aren't].


Which seems to be the general case.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation
http://www.nolindan.com/da/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com


  #13  
Old October 24th 06, 11:17 PM posted to rec.photo.film+labs,rec.arts.movies.tech,alt.photography,alt.photography.schools.nyip,rec.photo.darkroom
Jean-David Beyer
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Posts: 247
Default Different Formats for Different Countries -- Variable DensityB&W Film

Tony Clarke wrote (in part):

Someone on a forum - possibly not this one - confused me recently by
saying that "full plate" was 8 x 6 inches and all else was a division of
that. Sounds like the confusion over book binding classifications based on a
broadsheet being 15" x 20" except when it wasn't. I thought "full plate" was
10 x 8 inches, as the original master size for photos and respected to this
day in paper sizes. Am I wrong?

I do not know if there is any such thing as "full plate" in photography.
Back in Daguerreotype days, the images were made on a sensitized sheet of
copper plated on one side with silver and then sensitized by the user. These
plates had standard sizes:

Full Plate: 6½ by 8½ inches
Half Plate: 4¼ by 5½ inches
Quarter Plate: 3¼ by 4¼ inches
Sixth Plate: 2¾ by 3¼ inches (a.k.a. "medium plate")
Ninth Plate: 2 by 2½ inches
Sixteenth Plate: 1 3/8 by 1 5/8 inches

Now ordinary printing paper, in USA, came from the size of the frame
commonly used for making paper by hand that turned out 17 by 22 inch sheets
after the deckle edge was trimmed off. This was about the largest they could
make sheets for a long time. These where cut in half both ways making 8½ by
11 sheets as standard for printing (and later, typewriting).

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 18:05:01 up 3 days, 19:32, 3 users, load average: 4.39, 4.20, 4.12
  #14  
Old October 29th 06, 09:02 PM posted to rec.photo.film+labs,rec.arts.movies.tech,alt.photography,alt.photography.schools.nyip,rec.photo.darkroom
UC
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Posts: 195
Default Different Formats for Different Countries -- Variable Density B&W Film


Radium wrote:
Hi:

Is it true that in the days of B&W film and optical track audio, that
the films were formatted differently in different countries?


No.


When magnetic videotapes were the norm, USA and Canada used NTSC,
France and Russia used SECAM, and the rest of the world used PAL.


Thanks,

Radium


  #15  
Old October 29th 06, 09:36 PM posted to rec.photo.film+labs,rec.arts.movies.tech,alt.photography,alt.photography.schools.nyip,rec.photo.darkroom
David Nebenzahl
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Posts: 1,353
Default Different Formats for Different Countries -- Variable DensityB&W Film

Jean-David Beyer spake thus:

Now ordinary printing paper, in USA, came from the size of the frame
commonly used for making paper by hand that turned out 17 by 22 inch sheets
after the deckle edge was trimmed off. This was about the largest they could
make sheets for a long time. These where cut in half both ways making 8½ by
11 sheets as standard for printing (and later, typewriting).


OK, so where did that Yurpeen standard, A4, come from?


--
Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really
care about the quality of your food, Wikipedia is where you go when
you're curious but don't really care about the quality of your knowledge.

- Matthew White's WikiWatch (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)
  #16  
Old October 29th 06, 10:50 PM posted to rec.photo.film+labs,rec.arts.movies.tech,alt.photography,alt.photography.schools.nyip,rec.photo.darkroom
Scott Dorsey
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Posts: 31
Default Different Formats for Different Countries -- Variable Density B&W Film

UC wrote:
Radium wrote:
Hi:

Is it true that in the days of B&W film and optical track audio, that
the films were formatted differently in different countries?


No.


Well, except for the soundtrack being in different languages for different
countries... from a distributor's standpoint that's the same thing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #17  
Old October 30th 06, 12:28 PM posted to rec.photo.film+labs,rec.arts.movies.tech,alt.photography,alt.photography.schools.nyip,rec.photo.darkroom
dj_nme
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Posts: 399
Default Different Formats for Different Countries -- Variable DensityB&W Film

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Jean-David Beyer spake thus:

Now ordinary printing paper, in USA, came from the size of the frame
commonly used for making paper by hand that turned out 17 by 22 inch
sheets
after the deckle edge was trimmed off. This was about the largest they
could
make sheets for a long time. These where cut in half both ways making
8½ by
11 sheets as standard for printing (and later, typewriting).



OK, so where did that Yurpeen standard, A4, come from?


One of the first hits on Google:
http://www.paulschou.com/a4/
  #18  
Old October 30th 06, 01:43 PM posted to rec.photo.film+labs,rec.arts.movies.tech,alt.photography,alt.photography.schools.nyip,rec.photo.darkroom
Chris Hills
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Posts: 83
Default Different Formats for Different Countries -- Variable Density B&W Film

In message m, David
Nebenzahl writes
Jean-David Beyer spake thus:

Now ordinary printing paper, in USA, came from the size of the frame
commonly used for making paper by hand that turned out 17 by 22 inch sheets
after the deckle edge was trimmed off. This was about the largest they could
make sheets for a long time. These where cut in half both ways making 8½ by
11 sheets as standard for printing (and later, typewriting).


OK, so where did that Yurpeen standard, A4, come from?


A4 is NOT European It is International and is used EVERYWHERE except
the USA.

see http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-paper.html

Some points from the link:

"The United States, Canada, and in part Mexico, are today the only
industrialized nations in which the ISO standard paper sizes are not yet
widely used."

"If you live in the U.S. and have never been abroad, you might not be
aware that paper and accessories in the North-American sizes are not
commonly available outside the U.S. or Canada. They are very difficult
to obtain in any other country"

Interestingly:-
"Although it is rarely advertised, ISO A4 laser printer and copying
paper, as well as suitable files and folders, are available today from
many U.S. office supply companies. A4 paper and supplies are regularly
ordered in the U.S. today, especially by companies and organizations
with a lot of international correspondence, including patent lawyers,
diplomats, universities, and some government agencies. It seems that in
the U.S., at the moment, only higher-quality paper brands are easily
available in A4, i.e. the types of paper preferred for important
documents, such as international patent applications. Many of the larger
stationery chains do offer at least one type of A4 paper in their
catalogues, but not all shops keep it on stock routinely and might have
to order it first."


So eventually the US might start using standard paper sizes that fit in
with the rest of the world.


--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/



  #19  
Old October 30th 06, 01:52 PM posted to rec.photo.film+labs,rec.arts.movies.tech,alt.photography,alt.photography.schools.nyip,rec.photo.darkroom
j
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Posts: 215
Default Different Formats for Different Countries -- Variable Density B&W Film

dj_nme wrote:

One of the first hits on Google:
http://www.paulschou.com/a4/


Perfect explanation, thanks for that.

It is interesting that we have the tendency to prefer rectangles to squares,
otherwise we would have gone to the Golden Mean (1.618) instead of 1.414.



  #20  
Old October 30th 06, 07:00 PM posted to rec.photo.film+labs,rec.arts.movies.tech,alt.photography,alt.photography.schools.nyip,rec.photo.darkroom
David Nebenzahl
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Posts: 1,353
Default Different Formats for Different Countries -- Variable DensityB&W Film

Chris Hills spake thus:

In message m, David
Nebenzahl writes

Jean-David Beyer spake thus:

Now ordinary printing paper, in USA, came from the size of the frame
commonly used for making paper by hand that turned out 17 by 22 inch
sheets
after the deckle edge was trimmed off. This was about the largest
they could
make sheets for a long time. These where cut in half both ways making
8½ by
11 sheets as standard for printing (and later, typewriting).


OK, so where did that Yurpeen standard, A4, come from?


A4 is NOT European It is International and is used EVERYWHERE except
the USA.

see http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-paper.html

Some points from the link:

"The United States, Canada, and in part Mexico, are today the only
industrialized nations in which the ISO standard paper sizes are not yet
widely used."

"If you live in the U.S. and have never been abroad, you might not be
aware that paper and accessories in the North-American sizes are not
commonly available outside the U.S. or Canada. They are very difficult
to obtain in any other country"

Interestingly:-
"Although it is rarely advertised, ISO A4 laser printer and copying
paper, as well as suitable files and folders, are available today from
many U.S. office supply companies. A4 paper and supplies are regularly
ordered in the U.S. today, especially by companies and organizations
with a lot of international correspondence, including patent lawyers,
diplomats, universities, and some government agencies. It seems that in
the U.S., at the moment, only higher-quality paper brands are easily
available in A4, i.e. the types of paper preferred for important
documents, such as international patent applications. Many of the larger
stationery chains do offer at least one type of A4 paper in their
catalogues, but not all shops keep it on stock routinely and might have
to order it first."

So eventually the US might start using standard paper sizes that fit in
with the rest of the world.


And why, pray tell, would I want to do that? Just as I may ask why we
(the U.S., and even, for that matter, parts of the UK) should abandon
our venerable measurement system in favor of the metric system? (Don't
know if you're aware of it, but there's *trememdous* oppostion to
metrificiation both here in the U.S. and abroad.)

Why should I embrace a system that's cold and based on some abstract
notions, such as an aspect ratio based on the square root of two, where
the primary size (A0) from which the others are derived is defined,
arbitrarily, as having an area of one square meter? It's all neat and
consistent--and totally arbitrary, having nothing to do with real-world
historical proportions and dimensions.

No thanks. I'll stick to *my* "letter" and "legal" and "tabloid" sizes
any day. Which is what appears to be the case for the forseeable future
here, despite the urgent wishes of the Internationalizers and the
Yurpeenizers.


--
Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really
care about the quality of your food, Wikipedia is where you go when
you're curious but don't really care about the quality of your knowledge.

- Matthew White's WikiWatch (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)
 




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