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#1
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Colour query
Hi, could anyone offer some advice about the following?
I'm using an Epson R300 that has been set up with an srgb colour profile, as has the monitor, adobe gamma has also been applied (not that there seems much adjustment possible on my LCD screen) When printing photo's via the windows fax & picture viewer software the finished result is hopelessly dark. I've tried a combination of paper and quality settings and, while there is some variation, the overall result is still way too dark. Dark results are also being produced when printing through PS - which has also been set up with the srgb profile But, when printing through Picasa 2, the finished result is (if anything) slightly too light. Any ideas why the different pieces of software are treating the same jpg so differently? (no adjustments are being made prior to printing, apart from the initial adjustments in PS)) Thanks for your thoughts |
#2
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"Trammell" wrote in message ... Hi, could anyone offer some advice about the following? I'm using an Epson R300 that has been set up with an srgb colour profile, as has the monitor, adobe gamma has also been applied (not that there seems much adjustment possible on my LCD screen) When printing photo's via the windows fax & picture viewer software the finished result is hopelessly dark. I've tried a combination of paper and quality settings and, while there is some variation, the overall result is still way too dark. There's a known problem with older drivers on Windows XP SP2 - have a looky here http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/s...egory=Products I needed to uninstall the older drivers before installing the new ones, installing over the old ones didn't seem to work for me. Dark results are also being produced when printing through PS - which has also been set up with the srgb profile But, when printing through Picasa 2, the finished result is (if anything) slightly too light. Any ideas why the different pieces of software are treating the same jpg so differently? (no adjustments are being made prior to printing, apart from the initial adjustments in PS)) Thanks for your thoughts I don't know what settings you have for Color management (on the Main - Advanced screen of the Epson printer properties window), but I messed about with my R200 and found that settings them on 'Colour Controls' with all the sliders on zero and the colour mode on Epson Vivid produced the best results - setting the colour mode to Epson Standard seems to produce slightly too light and washed out prints; but it's a minor difference between the two. Using the Photo Enhance and ICM modes for me produces prints that plain wrong, even when using the ICC profiles for the paper(s). |
#3
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"Harvey" wrote in message ... "Trammell" wrote in message ... Hi, could anyone offer some advice about the following? I'm using an Epson R300 that has been set up with an srgb colour profile, as has the monitor, adobe gamma has also been applied (not that there seems much adjustment possible on my LCD screen) When printing photo's via the windows fax & picture viewer software the finished result is hopelessly dark. I've tried a combination of paper and quality settings and, while there is some variation, the overall result is still way too dark. There's a known problem with older drivers on Windows XP SP2 - have a looky here http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/s...egory=Products I needed to uninstall the older drivers before installing the new ones, installing over the old ones didn't seem to work for me. Dark results are also being produced when printing through PS - which has also been set up with the srgb profile But, when printing through Picasa 2, the finished result is (if anything) slightly too light. Any ideas why the different pieces of software are treating the same jpg so differently? (no adjustments are being made prior to printing, apart from the initial adjustments in PS)) Thanks for your thoughts I don't know what settings you have for Color management (on the Main - Advanced screen of the Epson printer properties window), but I messed about with my R200 and found that settings them on 'Colour Controls' with all the sliders on zero and the colour mode on Epson Vivid produced the best results - setting the colour mode to Epson Standard seems to produce slightly too light and washed out prints; but it's a minor difference between the two. Using the Photo Enhance and ICM modes for me produces prints that plain wrong, even when using the ICC profiles for the paper(s). Thanks very much,Harvey, the new drivers sorted the main problem - so much for SP2 Just one snag, I've got two 300's, one using Epson ink and one using compatible ink. I've noticed that the colour rendition of the two ink types is pretty similar - except for subjects with darkish hair. For some reason the compatible inks tend to render the brown as a greyish-brown, which makes it unsuitable for turning out album photos. I know that it's a consequence of using cheap ink, but in all other respects the prints obtained from the compatibles are very good - it's just this brown/grey hair issue. Given the huge difference in price between the two inks I'd very much like to try and resolve the matter - the effect occurs with at least three different brands of compatibles, so I'm a bit stumped. I'm also using non-Epson paper - but that doesn't seem to make a difference to the Epson ink, which renders the hair perfectly, is it possible that Epson add 'something' to their ink that helps with the brown rendering? I've also tried various paper settings - but with no effect on the grey/brown hair result - anyone else had this problem?, and more importantly, anyone found an answer? |
#4
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Sadly, due in part to Window's poorly implemented color management (who
thought anyone using a Windows OS would be printing fine art or photos... it was designed to make colored bar graphs and pie charts...) every manufacturer of printers, scanners, monitors, software, inks, papers, etc, etc, have had to incorporate some form of color management. Unfortunately, some don't work at all, some work poorly, some conflict with others, and soon you end up with a disaster on your hands. The subject is so broad that literally books have been written about it. Probably, the best thing you can do is go to Google and look up something like: "Color Management" +windows and see if one of the many web site provides you with some insight into both the problems and some of the solutions. You may have Adobe Gamma set up improperly. Some suggest it shouldn't be used as it messes up some basic concepts in color management. Also sRGB is a video gamut and restricts the pallet quite a bit. Some suggest using Adobe RGB (1998). Adobe's own website probably has discussions about this, as well. I'm guessing you have several different color management aware programs each trying to do their own thing. Art Trammell wrote: Hi, could anyone offer some advice about the following? I'm using an Epson R300 that has been set up with an srgb colour profile, as has the monitor, adobe gamma has also been applied (not that there seems much adjustment possible on my LCD screen) When printing photo's via the windows fax & picture viewer software the finished result is hopelessly dark. I've tried a combination of paper and quality settings and, while there is some variation, the overall result is still way too dark. Dark results are also being produced when printing through PS - which has also been set up with the srgb profile But, when printing through Picasa 2, the finished result is (if anything) slightly too light. Any ideas why the different pieces of software are treating the same jpg so differently? (no adjustments are being made prior to printing, apart from the initial adjustments in PS)) Thanks for your thoughts |
#5
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You raised a good point, SP2 for XP broke part of Epson's color
management and they corrected it with a new driver, which is available from their website. One common cause of this can be dark output from their printers. Art Harvey wrote: "Trammell" wrote in message ... Hi, could anyone offer some advice about the following? I'm using an Epson R300 that has been set up with an srgb colour profile, as has the monitor, adobe gamma has also been applied (not that there seems much adjustment possible on my LCD screen) When printing photo's via the windows fax & picture viewer software the finished result is hopelessly dark. I've tried a combination of paper and quality settings and, while there is some variation, the overall result is still way too dark. There's a known problem with older drivers on Windows XP SP2 - have a looky here http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/s...egory=Products I needed to uninstall the older drivers before installing the new ones, installing over the old ones didn't seem to work for me. Dark results are also being produced when printing through PS - which has also been set up with the srgb profile But, when printing through Picasa 2, the finished result is (if anything) slightly too light. Any ideas why the different pieces of software are treating the same jpg so differently? (no adjustments are being made prior to printing, apart from the initial adjustments in PS)) Thanks for your thoughts I don't know what settings you have for Color management (on the Main - Advanced screen of the Epson printer properties window), but I messed about with my R200 and found that settings them on 'Colour Controls' with all the sliders on zero and the colour mode on Epson Vivid produced the best results - setting the colour mode to Epson Standard seems to produce slightly too light and washed out prints; but it's a minor difference between the two. Using the Photo Enhance and ICM modes for me produces prints that plain wrong, even when using the ICC profiles for the paper(s). |
#6
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Chances are you need to have the ink and paper profiled. Darker colors
and higher saturated areas always are more difficult to reproduce correctly with inkjets. Epson obviously uses their own inks to write the driver profiles, and they optimize the profiles to supply the best results with their inks. You can buy profiles for standard papers and inks, some ink manufacturer's provide profiles for free or a small fee, and you can have them made for you for a fee. Art Trammell wrote: "Harvey" wrote in message ... "Trammell" wrote in message ... Hi, could anyone offer some advice about the following? I'm using an Epson R300 that has been set up with an srgb colour profile, as has the monitor, adobe gamma has also been applied (not that there seems much adjustment possible on my LCD screen) When printing photo's via the windows fax & picture viewer software the finished result is hopelessly dark. I've tried a combination of paper and quality settings and, while there is some variation, the overall result is still way too dark. There's a known problem with older drivers on Windows XP SP2 - have a looky here http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/s...egory=Products I needed to uninstall the older drivers before installing the new ones, installing over the old ones didn't seem to work for me. Dark results are also being produced when printing through PS - which has also been set up with the srgb profile But, when printing through Picasa 2, the finished result is (if anything) slightly too light. Any ideas why the different pieces of software are treating the same jpg so differently? (no adjustments are being made prior to printing, apart from the initial adjustments in PS)) Thanks for your thoughts I don't know what settings you have for Color management (on the Main - Advanced screen of the Epson printer properties window), but I messed about with my R200 and found that settings them on 'Colour Controls' with all the sliders on zero and the colour mode on Epson Vivid produced the best results - setting the colour mode to Epson Standard seems to produce slightly too light and washed out prints; but it's a minor difference between the two. Using the Photo Enhance and ICM modes for me produces prints that plain wrong, even when using the ICC profiles for the paper(s). Thanks very much,Harvey, the new drivers sorted the main problem - so much for SP2 Just one snag, I've got two 300's, one using Epson ink and one using compatible ink. I've noticed that the colour rendition of the two ink types is pretty similar - except for subjects with darkish hair. For some reason the compatible inks tend to render the brown as a greyish-brown, which makes it unsuitable for turning out album photos. I know that it's a consequence of using cheap ink, but in all other respects the prints obtained from the compatibles are very good - it's just this brown/grey hair issue. Given the huge difference in price between the two inks I'd very much like to try and resolve the matter - the effect occurs with at least three different brands of compatibles, so I'm a bit stumped. I'm also using non-Epson paper - but that doesn't seem to make a difference to the Epson ink, which renders the hair perfectly, is it possible that Epson add 'something' to their ink that helps with the brown rendering? I've also tried various paper settings - but with no effect on the grey/brown hair result - anyone else had this problem?, and more importantly, anyone found an answer? |
#7
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"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message news:Oc4Pd.44183$gA4.13196@edtnps89... Chances are you need to have the ink and paper profiled. Darker colors and higher saturated areas always are more difficult to reproduce correctly with inkjets. Epson obviously uses their own inks to write the driver profiles, and they optimize the profiles to supply the best results with their inks. You can buy profiles for standard papers and inks, some ink manufacturer's provide profiles for free or a small fee, and you can have them made for you for a fee. Art He may also be getting 'bronzing' (where the black inks aren't actually black but shine in various rainbow colours, also known as 'gloss differential' or 'solarization' ) - that's normally an issue that is most noticeable on large black areas, but (depending on 1001 factors) might be part of the problem. I'm also using non-Epson paper - but that doesn't seem to make a difference to the Epson ink, which renders the hair perfectly, is it possible that Epson add 'something' to their ink that helps with the brown rendering? Have you tried using any other paper than this one? Papers very considerably in their ability with different inks - I myself found that Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl gives a tendency towards green in the mid-brown / dark grey areas with Epson inks (made worse when using the Ilford ICC profile than without); whereas the super-cheap paper I got from a supermarket (costing about 1/8th of the Ilford stuff) goes slightly towards yellow in face tones and light greys. Unfortunately, finding a 'correct' match for 3rd party inks is very hit and miss. I'm still using the last few drops of the black from the original set supplied with the printer, the other colours being already replaced with 3rd party inks. So far, nothing much as changed from a colour balance perspective, there's a slight reduction in saturation but nothing drastic. That could all change when I get a 3rd party black ink in :| [...] |
#8
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"Ed Ruf" wrote in message ... On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:59:41 GMT, in comp.periphs.printers "Harvey" wrote: He may also be getting 'bronzing' (where the black inks aren't actually black but shine in various rainbow colours, also known as 'gloss differential' or 'solarization' ) - that's normally an issue that is most noticeable on large black areas, but (depending on 1001 factors) might be part of the problem. This is normally associated with pigmented inks, not the dye based ones, such as the R300 makes use of, no? It's an issue you [can] get with all types of ink, pigment or dye's. Technically, it may not actually be bronzing as such; but it's a similar look, with the ink (mainly back) sometimes giving the effect of the ink sitting 'on' the paper surface, or looking almost wet when viewed at a certain angle. |
#9
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Hi there
I suspect from reading the original posting that colour management is not being applied in any realistic way. Printer & Monitor have both been set up with sRGB Profiles. The Printer should have been set up to use the Epson Printer Profiles, but I suspect that in "Custom" "Advanced" the radio button is against sRGB. If you are using a fairly inexpensive LCD Panel, then you are probably never going to get it Calibrated using Adobe Gamma. If you are starting Adobe Gamma by selecting sRGB as the Monitor Profile, then the situation is probably being made worse. I am pretty sure that Windows do not include any "Generic" Monitor Profiles for LCDs, which could have been a better starting point. You could try the Monitor manufacturers site to see if they have an ICC profile for it, and then try applying Adobe Gamma to that, but ensure you keep a copy of the original monitor profile somewhere, just in case Adobe Gamma messes it up. This sort of misuse of Colour Management is very common, and that can be understood because at first it does all seem to be overcomplicated. Once people get their heads round the basic principles it all becomes very easy, but it is not easy to get to that situation. sRGB and Adobe RGB are both Working Space Profiles, and should be used by PS or Elements, but not be used as Input or Output Device Profiles. The Program will store the image, and manipulate the image using its Working Space Profile. It will display the image on screen by converting that "Space" profile through your Calibrated Monitor Profile to give you accurate Colours. It will Print the image by converting that "Space" profile through your Printer ( & Paper) Profile so that the colours on the Print are accurate. OR Your Printer will convert from that "Space" profile through its Printer ( & Paper) profile to give accurate colours. You must set things up so that only the Program or the Printer do this Printing Colour Management, NOT BOTH. The most common way of ensuring this is to use the Adobe "Print with Preview" command, and select your Printer Profile in the Output Space. On the printer Drivers "Custom" "Advanced" screen select "No Colour Management" Of course with Non Epson Ink and Non Epson Paper, the provided Epson ICC Profiles will not be a lot of use. In that case you should select No Colour Management in the Adobe "Print with Preview" Dialogue and make trial prints using the colour sliders in the Printers Dialogue Box. Or pay someone to make a Printer Profile for you which will allow you to use that kind of ink on that kind of paper, but it would probably be cheaper to use Epson Ink and Epson Paper. Hope this helps a bit. Roy "Arthur Entlich" wrote in message news:I34Pd.44179$gA4.13577@edtnps89... Sadly, due in part to Window's poorly implemented color management (who thought anyone using a Windows OS would be printing fine art or photos... it was designed to make colored bar graphs and pie charts...) every manufacturer of printers, scanners, monitors, software, inks, papers, etc, etc, have had to incorporate some form of color management. Unfortunately, some don't work at all, some work poorly, some conflict with others, and soon you end up with a disaster on your hands. The subject is so broad that literally books have been written about it. Probably, the best thing you can do is go to Google and look up something like: "Color Management" +windows and see if one of the many web site provides you with some insight into both the problems and some of the solutions. You may have Adobe Gamma set up improperly. Some suggest it shouldn't be used as it messes up some basic concepts in color management. Also sRGB is a video gamut and restricts the pallet quite a bit. Some suggest using Adobe RGB (1998). Adobe's own website probably has discussions about this, as well. I'm guessing you have several different color management aware programs each trying to do their own thing. Art Trammell wrote: Hi, could anyone offer some advice about the following? I'm using an Epson R300 that has been set up with an srgb colour profile, as has the monitor, adobe gamma has also been applied (not that there seems much adjustment possible on my LCD screen) When printing photo's via the windows fax & picture viewer software the finished result is hopelessly dark. I've tried a combination of paper and quality settings and, while there is some variation, the overall result is still way too dark. Dark results are also being produced when printing through PS - which has also been set up with the srgb profile But, when printing through Picasa 2, the finished result is (if anything) slightly too light. Any ideas why the different pieces of software are treating the same jpg so differently? (no adjustments are being made prior to printing, apart from the initial adjustments in PS)) Thanks for your thoughts |
#10
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Bronzing is more likely with dye inks than pigments. It has a great
deal to do with the paper as to how obvious it is. Art Ed Ruf wrote: On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:59:41 GMT, in comp.periphs.printers "Harvey" wrote: He may also be getting 'bronzing' (where the black inks aren't actually black but shine in various rainbow colours, also known as 'gloss differential' or 'solarization' ) - that's normally an issue that is most noticeable on large black areas, but (depending on 1001 factors) might be part of the problem. This is normally associated with pigmented inks, not the dye based ones, such as the R300 makes use of, no? |
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