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#71
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Monitor settings
On Thu, 18 May 2017 22:39:47 +0100, sid wrote:
Eric Stevens wrote: On Wed, 17 May 2017 12:00:26 +0100, sid wrote: nospam (and any one else) cannot see color differences when they only see the end result. They have to have a starting point in order to determine a color *difference* in the end result. You're only helping to prove my point here. What should one do, make sure sure there is a colour chart included in all images so you can satisfy yourself that the colours are accurate? What one should do is use a color managed work flow with both the author and the viewer using calibrated screens. That way the viewer will see on their viewer the same colors as the author saw on their viewer (subject only to measurement error). Well that is never going to happen. A whole heap of different devices are used to view photos and most of them look fine straight out of the box, perhaps a little bright and over saturated, but nevertheless completely acceptable to the majority of users. Good luck getting them all to calibrate their viewing devices so you know you photos are "just so." As things stand, while your image is acceptable to me, There's that point your making for me again. I have no way of knowing whether or not what I see is what you see or what you intended me to see. But nevertheless perfectly acceptable. If you are not using a color managed work flow it is almost certain that what I see is different from what you see. The differences could be significant. But 99 times out of a hundred completely insignificant. It depends how fussy you are. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#72
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Monitor settings
On 5/18/2017 7:40 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2017 08:53:29 -0400, Neil wrote: On 5/17/2017 7:19 PM, Eric Stevens wrote: On Wed, 17 May 2017 05:42:05 -0400, Neil wrote: On 5/16/2017 7:16 PM, Eric Stevens wrote: On Tue, 16 May 2017 16:05:11 -0400, Tony Cooper wrote: On Tue, 16 May 2017 19:45:22 +0100, sid wrote: nospam wrote: In article , newshound wrote: I think that there is a tool in W10 for calibrating the display by eye... Anyways: If you are spending more than £500 on your camera AND display then: https://www.parkcameras.com/p/V15870...x-rite/colormu nki-smile Thanks for the suggestion, and the price doesn't seem unreasonable, but I have been using cameras for long enough to know that most of the nice "must have" gadgets won't actually make any real difference. a properly calibrated display *does* make a difference. a very big difference. in other words, such 'gadgets' are *well* worth the price. Accurate monitor calibration is only really necessary for pro use where colours have to match. For the general photographer as long as your pictures look pretty much the same on a range of devices then you're pretty much good to go. If you want to print easily to match what you see then creating a profile for your paper and ink combination is the thing to do. Well, not as I understand it. While it doesn't make much difference to the average photographer if the green leaves aren't the same green as the trees, what monitor calibration does is ensure that what you see on the monitor is what you see on the print. I know someone who sells beads on the internet. She uses an X-Rite color checker to make sure the color in the photo is the color of the bead, but doesn't have a calibrated monitor. The print will be accurate even if the monitor and print differ in look. The print will only be accurate if the color of the bead is within the gamut of the ink and paper combination. Few printers can cover even the sRGB gamut, let alone Adobe-RGB. Since both the bead and a print are perceived via the reflective color spectrum, it is far more likely that the colors can be acceptably matched than when viewing in the RGB transmitted color spectrum. It sounds to me like the bead-maker understands this pretty well. I suspect the only color gamut with which the bead maker was concerned was that of the selection of colors they had available to them. She was apparently concerned enough about the accuracy of her printed material to verify the image output with her X-Rite color checker. As one who has created tens of thousands of pages of printed color material, her approach makes more sense to me than ignoring that aspect and simply calibrating her monitor. What she was doing makes sense if she was primarily interested in the printed output. What it looked like on the screen would be almost irrelevant except that if the screen is calibrated it makes it easier to get it right in the print. As I wrote in an earlier post, it makes training the eye to spot problems easier. However, the way to get predictable output in print is a bit more complicated. Using a calibrated screen makes it easier to get it right in other calibrated (or near calibrated) screens. If neither the source nor the target screens are calibrated it's anyone's guess what colors the target viewer will end up seeing. Of course, this may not matter. IMO, one needs to realize that only a minute percentage of on-line viewers will have anything close to a calibrated screen. Photographers that create images for the web sometimes steer well clear of those portions of the color spectrum that can be detrimental to viewing on uncalibrated monitors. -- best regards, Neil |
#73
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On Thu, 18 May 2017 19:50:33 -0400, Neil
wrote: On 5/18/2017 7:40 PM, Eric Stevens wrote: On Thu, 18 May 2017 08:53:29 -0400, Neil wrote: On 5/17/2017 7:19 PM, Eric Stevens wrote: On Wed, 17 May 2017 05:42:05 -0400, Neil wrote: On 5/16/2017 7:16 PM, Eric Stevens wrote: On Tue, 16 May 2017 16:05:11 -0400, Tony Cooper wrote: On Tue, 16 May 2017 19:45:22 +0100, sid wrote: nospam wrote: In article , newshound wrote: I think that there is a tool in W10 for calibrating the display by eye... Anyways: If you are spending more than £500 on your camera AND display then: https://www.parkcameras.com/p/V15870...x-rite/colormu nki-smile Thanks for the suggestion, and the price doesn't seem unreasonable, but I have been using cameras for long enough to know that most of the nice "must have" gadgets won't actually make any real difference. a properly calibrated display *does* make a difference. a very big difference. in other words, such 'gadgets' are *well* worth the price. Accurate monitor calibration is only really necessary for pro use where colours have to match. For the general photographer as long as your pictures look pretty much the same on a range of devices then you're pretty much good to go. If you want to print easily to match what you see then creating a profile for your paper and ink combination is the thing to do. Well, not as I understand it. While it doesn't make much difference to the average photographer if the green leaves aren't the same green as the trees, what monitor calibration does is ensure that what you see on the monitor is what you see on the print. I know someone who sells beads on the internet. She uses an X-Rite color checker to make sure the color in the photo is the color of the bead, but doesn't have a calibrated monitor. The print will be accurate even if the monitor and print differ in look. The print will only be accurate if the color of the bead is within the gamut of the ink and paper combination. Few printers can cover even the sRGB gamut, let alone Adobe-RGB. Since both the bead and a print are perceived via the reflective color spectrum, it is far more likely that the colors can be acceptably matched than when viewing in the RGB transmitted color spectrum. It sounds to me like the bead-maker understands this pretty well. I suspect the only color gamut with which the bead maker was concerned was that of the selection of colors they had available to them. She was apparently concerned enough about the accuracy of her printed material to verify the image output with her X-Rite color checker. As one who has created tens of thousands of pages of printed color material, her approach makes more sense to me than ignoring that aspect and simply calibrating her monitor. What she was doing makes sense if she was primarily interested in the printed output. What it looked like on the screen would be almost irrelevant except that if the screen is calibrated it makes it easier to get it right in the print. As I wrote in an earlier post, it makes training the eye to spot problems easier. However, the way to get predictable output in print is a bit more complicated. Using a calibrated screen makes it easier to get it right in other calibrated (or near calibrated) screens. If neither the source nor the target screens are calibrated it's anyone's guess what colors the target viewer will end up seeing. Of course, this may not matter. IMO, one needs to realize that only a minute percentage of on-line viewers will have anything close to a calibrated screen. Photographers that create images for the web sometimes steer well clear of those portions of the color spectrum that can be detrimental to viewing on uncalibrated monitors. .... especially some of the older monitors. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#74
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nospam wrote:
In article , sid wrote: Consistent results are achieved by using the same equipment consistently, calibrated or not. nope. it's achieved by calibrating the equipment to a known standard. As long as the eyeball calibration is repeated at the same frequency as any hardware calibration would be then the results will be equally consistent for the purposes required. nonsense. an eyeball is notoriously *not* accurate. It doesn't need to be if you're not doing colour critical professional work. nonsense. plenty of non-professionals want accurate high quality results. it ain't just colour-critical work. just because you aren't interested in quality doesn't mean the rest of the world isn't. Plain old insults, shows you've got no real argument. Peer review will very quickly let you know if your doing something wrong. which is what everyone in this newsgroup is telling you. No, even you agreed that you can't tell a blind bit of difference. i did not say that. You said it was not possible to tell which photos had or had not been processed on a colour calibrated monitor. To anyone with half a brain that implies that there is no difference. If you meant something else perhaps you should have said something else. no it doesn't imply that at all. So, what does it imply? -- sid |
#75
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In article , sid
wrote: Consistent results are achieved by using the same equipment consistently, calibrated or not. nope. it's achieved by calibrating the equipment to a known standard. As long as the eyeball calibration is repeated at the same frequency as any hardware calibration would be then the results will be equally consistent for the purposes required. nonsense. an eyeball is notoriously *not* accurate. It doesn't need to be if you're not doing colour critical professional work. nonsense. plenty of non-professionals want accurate high quality results. it ain't just colour-critical work. just because you aren't interested in quality doesn't mean the rest of the world isn't. Plain old insults, shows you've got no real argument. then it's a good thing i didn't insult you or anyone else, isn't it? if anyone has no real argument, that would be you, something even more clear now than it was before. Peer review will very quickly let you know if your doing something wrong. which is what everyone in this newsgroup is telling you. No, even you agreed that you can't tell a blind bit of difference. i did not say that. You said it was not possible to tell which photos had or had not been processed on a colour calibrated monitor. To anyone with half a brain that implies that there is no difference. If you meant something else perhaps you should have said something else. no it doesn't imply that at all. So, what does it imply? that you don't understand colour management, what a colour managed workflow is and why it's beneficial to everyone (not just you), and that you aren't interested in learning anything. |
#76
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Monitor settings
nospam wrote:
just because you aren't interested in quality doesn't mean the rest of the world isn't. Plain old insults, shows you've got no real argument. then it's a good thing i didn't insult you or anyone else, isn't it? if anyone has no real argument, that would be you, something even more clear now than it was before. The more you know you've lost the more pointless your posts become. Peer review will very quickly let you know if your doing something wrong. which is what everyone in this newsgroup is telling you. No, even you agreed that you can't tell a blind bit of difference. i did not say that. You said it was not possible to tell which photos had or had not been processed on a colour calibrated monitor. To anyone with half a brain that implies that there is no difference. If you meant something else perhaps you should have said something else. no it doesn't imply that at all. So, what does it imply? that you don't understand colour management, what a colour managed workflow is and why it's beneficial to everyone (not just you), and that you aren't interested in learning anything. So, let me get this straight, *you* can't tell which of my images have or have not been processed on a colour calibrated monitor means that I don't understand colour management? It means to me that you cannot see a difference ergo it makes none. -- sid |
#77
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Monitor settings
In article , sid
wrote: Peer review will very quickly let you know if your doing something wrong. which is what everyone in this newsgroup is telling you. No, even you agreed that you can't tell a blind bit of difference. i did not say that. You said it was not possible to tell which photos had or had not been processed on a colour calibrated monitor. To anyone with half a brain that implies that there is no difference. If you meant something else perhaps you should have said something else. no it doesn't imply that at all. So, what does it imply? that you don't understand colour management, what a colour managed workflow is and why it's beneficial to everyone (not just you), and that you aren't interested in learning anything. So, let me get this straight, *you* can't tell which of my images have or have not been processed on a colour calibrated monitor means that I don't understand colour management? It means to me that you cannot see a difference ergo it makes none. ignorance is bliss. |
#78
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Monitor settings
On Fri, 19 May 2017 23:21:47 +0100, sid wrote:
nospam wrote: just because you aren't interested in quality doesn't mean the rest of the world isn't. Plain old insults, shows you've got no real argument. then it's a good thing i didn't insult you or anyone else, isn't it? if anyone has no real argument, that would be you, something even more clear now than it was before. The more you know you've lost the more pointless your posts become. Peer review will very quickly let you know if your doing something wrong. which is what everyone in this newsgroup is telling you. No, even you agreed that you can't tell a blind bit of difference. i did not say that. You said it was not possible to tell which photos had or had not been processed on a colour calibrated monitor. To anyone with half a brain that implies that there is no difference. If you meant something else perhaps you should have said something else. no it doesn't imply that at all. So, what does it imply? that you don't understand colour management, what a colour managed workflow is and why it's beneficial to everyone (not just you), and that you aren't interested in learning anything. So, let me get this straight, *you* can't tell which of my images have or have not been processed on a colour calibrated monitor means that I don't understand colour management? It means to me that you cannot see a difference ergo it makes none. Oh, it does. The problem is that you are not using an appropriate test. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#79
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Monitor settings
Eric Stevens wrote:
So, let me get this straight, *you* can't tell which of my images have or have not been processed on a colour calibrated monitor means that I don't understand colour management? It means to me that you cannot see a difference ergo it makes none. Oh, it does. The problem is that you are not using an appropriate test. If it makes such a difference surely you'd be able see that difference somehow? -- sid |
#80
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Monitor settings
nospam wrote:
In article , sid wrote: Peer review will very quickly let you know if your doing something wrong. which is what everyone in this newsgroup is telling you. No, even you agreed that you can't tell a blind bit of difference. i did not say that. You said it was not possible to tell which photos had or had not been processed on a colour calibrated monitor. To anyone with half a brain that implies that there is no difference. If you meant something else perhaps you should have said something else. no it doesn't imply that at all. So, what does it imply? that you don't understand colour management, what a colour managed workflow is and why it's beneficial to everyone (not just you), and that you aren't interested in learning anything. So, let me get this straight, *you* can't tell which of my images have or have not been processed on a colour calibrated monitor means that I don't understand colour management? It means to me that you cannot see a difference ergo it makes none. ignorance is bliss. I'm glad it makes you happy. -- sid |
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