One upmanship and Canon's claim

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:06:39 -0700, RichA wrote:
: On Jun 28, 1:22 am, "Mark²" mjmorgan(lowest even number
: wrote:
: RichA wrote:
: On Jun 27, 6:01 pm, "Mark²" mjmorgan(lowest even number
: wrote:
: RichA wrote:
: "Someone" posted that Canon said the new 1DMkIII has the finest
: images of an DSLR, even better than their current FF models. I do
: not know if this is true. But if it is, does it matter much? By
: Sept or so, a new 5D (7D) will be out and it will likely be the
: number one imager at that time. Then a new 1Ds will come out, and
: so on. Is there a point in stating something is "the best" only to
: have it usurped of it's title 4-6 months later? Why not just say
: that anything beyond 1.5 is going to produce exceptional images and
: it is the other features of the camera that should determine which
: one you buy, at least until something really exceptional comes
: along?
:
: For that matter, Rich...why keep posting this stuff...given that in
: 4-6 months time, you'll just keep posting more...and more...and more
: of the same? How about you just take a 4-6 month break, and we'll
: see you on the other side!
:
: If some rumours about Canon are true, in six months there won't be any
: question about whether incremental improvements in cameras are worth
: taking note of because they'll be releasing something that won't be
: considered just a minor improvement on what is out there.
:
: BTW... Just for the heck of it, I'll answer you question:
:
: The term, "State of the Art" exists for a reason. It is applied to
: whatever device, system or product, in a given field, represents the
: best that is currently available. This becomes the new measuring
: stick to which subsequent products will be compared as the "state"
: moves forward. It is a very useful term/concept, and is used quite
: appropriately in the ever-changing field of digital photography.
:
: Fair enough then. Is the new measuring stick the 1DMkIII, at least
: in- terms of overall image quality?
:
: I'd say yes to that. If the 5D successor has the same sensor technology,
: it's going to blow people away...as will the 1Ds Mark III...but I think the
: 5D replacement will continue to sit at the sweet spot for over-all IQ.
:
: As for my 1D3...I'm pretty disgusted with the AF issues mine (and nearly
: everyone else's) has... Canon is "working on it" but it will surely be too
: late for my trip to Africa and other locations, which starts in 1 1/2
: weeks... Had a known in advance, I would have waited... Bummer.
:
: The image quality is fantastic...but if focus is flaky, it defeats the
: purpose of this action-specialist camera body. I'm sure they'll sort it
: out, but it sucks for me.
:
: Well, maybe most of the shots will be of static subjects amenable to
: manual focus? Lions lounging in the grass, etc?
: But then you probably hope for some action anyway.

For every lion lounging in the grass, there are three or four female lions
chasing down tonight's dinner. The photo op is when they catch it, not when
the male saunters up to help eat it.

Bob

On Jun 29, 1:50 pm, "G.T." wrote:
Rebecca Ore wrote:
In article ,
"G.T." wrote:

This is why religiously following "18-month" rule eliminates technical and
financial hardships. It's totally and utterly foolish to keep any dSLR
body
past its useful life expectancy of 18-months.

Very rich, very very rich in more ways than one.

It may be that beyond 18 months, the older camera body has almost no
resale value. I was re-reading a photography magazine from 1999 when
2.1 MP was considered state of the art and the DSLR was a Nikon F5/Kodak
hybrid.

Yes, that is definitely a factor but I don't think that's Rita's "useful
life expectancy of 18-months" point. Funny, my camera works just as
well now as when I bought it 24 months ago.

Greg
--http://ticketmastersucks.org

But you're not buying into the marketing plan that says you MUST buy a
new digital every 18 months. Two mutually exclusive ideas: Upgrade
and the mass market.

Robert Coe wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:06:39 -0700, RichA wrote:
: On Jun 28, 1:22 am, "Mark²" mjmorgan(lowest even number
: wrote:
: RichA wrote:
: On Jun 27, 6:01 pm, "Mark²" mjmorgan(lowest even number
: wrote:
: RichA wrote:
: "Someone" posted that Canon said the new 1DMkIII has the finest
: images of an DSLR, even better than their current FF models. I do
: not know if this is true. But if it is, does it matter much? By
: Sept or so, a new 5D (7D) will be out and it will likely be the
: number one imager at that time. Then a new 1Ds will come out, and
: so on. Is there a point in stating something is "the best" only to
: have it usurped of it's title 4-6 months later? Why not just say
: that anything beyond 1.5 is going to produce exceptional images and
: it is the other features of the camera that should determine which
: one you buy, at least until something really exceptional comes
: along?
:
: For that matter, Rich...why keep posting this stuff...given that in
: 4-6 months time, you'll just keep posting more...and more...and more
: of the same? How about you just take a 4-6 month break, and we'll
: see you on the other side!
:
: If some rumours about Canon are true, in six months there won't be any
: question about whether incremental improvements in cameras are worth
: taking note of because they'll be releasing something that won't be
: considered just a minor improvement on what is out there.
:
: BTW... Just for the heck of it, I'll answer you question:
:
: The term, "State of the Art" exists for a reason. It is applied to
: whatever device, system or product, in a given field, represents the
: best that is currently available. This becomes the new measuring
: stick to which subsequent products will be compared as the "state"
: moves forward. It is a very useful term/concept, and is used quite
: appropriately in the ever-changing field of digital photography.
:
: Fair enough then. Is the new measuring stick the 1DMkIII, at least
: in- terms of overall image quality?
:
: I'd say yes to that. If the 5D successor has the same sensor technology,
: it's going to blow people away...as will the 1Ds Mark III...but I think the
: 5D replacement will continue to sit at the sweet spot for over-all IQ.
:
: As for my 1D3...I'm pretty disgusted with the AF issues mine (and nearly
: everyone else's) has... Canon is "working on it" but it will surely be too
: late for my trip to Africa and other locations, which starts in 1 1/2
: weeks... Had a known in advance, I would have waited... Bummer.
:
: The image quality is fantastic...but if focus is flaky, it defeats the
: purpose of this action-specialist camera body. I'm sure they'll sort it
: out, but it sucks for me.
:
: Well, maybe most of the shots will be of static subjects amenable to
: manual focus? Lions lounging in the grass, etc?
: But then you probably hope for some action anyway.

For every lion lounging in the grass, there are three or four female lions
chasing down tonight's dinner. The photo op is when they catch it, not when
the male saunters up to help eat it.

Bob

Not necessarily,
http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries...0240b-700.html

Roger

Peter A. Stavrakoglou wrote:
"Mark²" mjmorgan(lowest even number wrote in message
...
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote:
Mark² wrote:

We agree on that. I'm pretty disgusted, frankly. I'm a Canon guy,
and like their stuff...but they've really screwed up on this one.
At this level, they should either deliver the goods, or don't
deliver at all. What's most frustrating is that they knew in
advance about it (this is known due to their recognition of RG's
review of a pre-production unit, and the later confirmation that
the production units suffer the EXACT same problem Canon was
notified about). When/if there is a fix, I'll likely be somewhere
in Africa where it's
impossible to benefit from it.
Bummer.

Mark,
Have you talked directly to Canon technical support and
told them of your impending trip? Maybe you could send them
your 1D3 and they send you a 1D2 for your Africa trip
(I would suggest that to them if they don't offer it).
One could hope they will have a firmware update that
solves the problem pretty quick.

Roger

Hmmm... That might be worth a try. I took my 1D3 to Irvine today,
but I frankly don't expect a real fix when I pick it up on Monday. I
might just try that...though I'll be gone for 7 weeks. They might
not be too wild about such a long loan. If it doesn't appear that
the camera is fixed (I'll take my laptop and test it), then I may
try your suggestion. That's something I hadn't thought of...

Thanks, Roger.

Mark

--
Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
www.pbase.com/markuson

Oh yeah, have a good and safe trip too.

Thanks. Safety will be an issue, as I'll be carrying major camera gear in
some of the most crime-ridden areas in the world...traveling alone most of
the time. We'll see how it goes...

--
Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
www.pbase.com/markuson

Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote:
Robert Coe wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:06:39 -0700, RichA
wrote:
On Jun 28, 1:22 am, "Mark²" mjmorgan(lowest even number
wrote:
RichA wrote:
On Jun 27, 6:01 pm, "Mark²" mjmorgan(lowest even number
wrote:
RichA wrote:
"Someone" posted that Canon said the new 1DMkIII has the finest
images of an DSLR, even better than their current FF models. I do
not know if this is true. But if it is, does it matter
much? By Sept or so, a new 5D (7D) will be out and it will
likely be the number one imager at that time. Then a new 1Ds
will come out, and so on. Is there a point in stating
something is "the best" only to have it usurped of it's title
4-6 months later? Why not just say that anything beyond 1.5 is
going to produce exceptional images and it is the other
features of the camera that should determine which one you buy,
at least until something really exceptional comes along?

For that matter, Rich...why keep posting this stuff...given that
in 4-6 months time, you'll just keep posting more...and
more...and more of the same? How about you just take a 4-6
month break, and we'll see you on the other side!

If some rumours about Canon are true, in six months there won't
be any question about whether incremental improvements in cameras
are worth taking note of because they'll be releasing something
that won't be considered just a minor improvement on what is out
there.

BTW... Just for the heck of it, I'll answer you question:

The term, "State of the Art" exists for a reason. It is applied
to whatever device, system or product, in a given field,
represents the best that is currently available. This becomes
the new measuring stick to which subsequent products will be
compared as the "state" moves forward. It is a very useful
term/concept, and is used quite appropriately in the
ever-changing field of digital photography.

Fair enough then. Is the new measuring stick the 1DMkIII, at
least in- terms of overall image quality?

I'd say yes to that. If the 5D successor has the same sensor
technology, it's going to blow people away...as will the 1Ds Mark
III...but I think the 5D replacement will continue to sit at the
sweet spot for over-all IQ. As for my 1D3...I'm pretty disgusted with
the AF issues mine (and
nearly everyone else's) has... Canon is "working on it" but it
will surely be too late for my trip to Africa and other locations,
which starts in 1 1/2 weeks... Had a known in advance, I would
have waited... Bummer. The image quality is fantastic...but if focus
is flaky, it defeats
the purpose of this action-specialist camera body. I'm sure
they'll sort it out, but it sucks for me.

Well, maybe most of the shots will be of static subjects amenable to
manual focus? Lions lounging in the grass, etc?
But then you probably hope for some action anyway.

For every lion lounging in the grass, there are three or four female
lions chasing down tonight's dinner. The photo op is when they catch
it, not when the male saunters up to help eat it.

Bob

Not necessarily,
http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries...0240b-700.html

Roger

I love that image--especially given the fact that it was shot with such a
slow shutter! It is images like these that convinced me to take the 500 f4
plunge. I've seen what it's capable of via manual focus.
Background blur is truly stunning, and images are pin-sharp.
-Now if I could just get AF to work...

--
Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
www.pbase.com/markuson

On Jun 29, 8:05 am, Rebecca Ore wrote:
In article ,

"G.T." wrote:
This is why religiously following "18-month" rule eliminates technical and
financial hardships. It's totally and utterly foolish to keep any dSLR
body
past its useful life expectancy of 18-months.

Very rich, very very rich in more ways than one.

It may be that beyond 18 months, the older camera body has almost no
resale value. I was re-reading a photography magazine from 1999 when
2.1 MP was considered state of the art and the DSLR was a Nikon F5/Kodak
hybrid.

Last weekend, I saw a camera one or two developmental cycles earlier
(N90/Kodak DSLR) that was supposedly still operational in a camera
store's junk box for $5. It was just over one MP, and had gone for
silly amounts of money in the early 1990s.

Compare that to prices of early 1990s film cameras -- some are in the $5
junk box along with the old digital, some go for almost as much as they
did when they were released.

I haven't seen quite this level of devaluation. The cheapest name
brand P&S digitals of 1-2 megapixels seem to go for about $50, 3-4 meg
about $100, depending on the model. I've seen this in-store to. On
Ebay, second-last generation Kodak DSLRs go for $900-$1000 and last
generation go for about $1500.00, provided they are in decent shape.

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 14:50:43 -0600, "Roger N. Clark (change username to
rnclark)" wrote:
: Robert Coe wrote:
: On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 16:06:39 -0700, RichA wrote:
: : On Jun 28, 1:22 am, "Mark²" mjmorgan(lowest even number
: : wrote:
: : RichA wrote:
: : On Jun 27, 6:01 pm, "Mark²" mjmorgan(lowest even number
: : wrote:
: : RichA wrote:
: : "Someone" posted that Canon said the new 1DMkIII has the finest
: : images of an DSLR, even better than their current FF models. I do
: : not know if this is true. But if it is, does it matter much? By
: : Sept or so, a new 5D (7D) will be out and it will likely be the
: : number one imager at that time. Then a new 1Ds will come out, and
: : so on. Is there a point in stating something is "the best" only to
: : have it usurped of it's title 4-6 months later? Why not just say
: : that anything beyond 1.5 is going to produce exceptional images and
: : it is the other features of the camera that should determine which
: : one you buy, at least until something really exceptional comes
: : along?
: :
: : For that matter, Rich...why keep posting this stuff...given that in
: : 4-6 months time, you'll just keep posting more...and more...and more
: : of the same? How about you just take a 4-6 month break, and we'll
: : see you on the other side!
: :
: : If some rumours about Canon are true, in six months there won't be any
: : question about whether incremental improvements in cameras are worth
: : taking note of because they'll be releasing something that won't be
: : considered just a minor improvement on what is out there.
: :
: : BTW... Just for the heck of it, I'll answer you question:
: :
: : The term, "State of the Art" exists for a reason. It is applied to
: : whatever device, system or product, in a given field, represents the
: : best that is currently available. This becomes the new measuring
: : stick to which subsequent products will be compared as the "state"
: : moves forward. It is a very useful term/concept, and is used quite
: : appropriately in the ever-changing field of digital photography.
: :
: : Fair enough then. Is the new measuring stick the 1DMkIII, at least
: : in- terms of overall image quality?
: :
: : I'd say yes to that. If the 5D successor has the same sensor technology,
: : it's going to blow people away...as will the 1Ds Mark III...but I think the
: : 5D replacement will continue to sit at the sweet spot for over-all IQ.
: :
: : As for my 1D3...I'm pretty disgusted with the AF issues mine (and nearly
: : everyone else's) has... Canon is "working on it" but it will surely be too
: : late for my trip to Africa and other locations, which starts in 1 1/2
: : weeks... Had a known in advance, I would have waited... Bummer.
: :
: : The image quality is fantastic...but if focus is flaky, it defeats the
: : purpose of this action-specialist camera body. I'm sure they'll sort it
: : out, but it sucks for me.
: :
: : Well, maybe most of the shots will be of static subjects amenable to
: : manual focus? Lions lounging in the grass, etc?
: : But then you probably hope for some action anyway.
:
: For every lion lounging in the grass, there are three or four female lions
: chasing down tonight's dinner. The photo op is when they catch it, not when
: the male saunters up to help eat it.
:
: Bob
:
: Not necessarily,
: http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries...0240b-700.html
:
: Roger

I stand corrected. :^)

He's really trying to stare you down, isn't he? Good thing you were using a
really long lens - and that he already has a full stomach.

Bob

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 04:32:19 -0700, "Mark²" mjmorgan(lowest even number
wrote:
: Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote:
: Mark² wrote:
:
: We agree on that. I'm pretty disgusted, frankly. I'm a Canon guy,
: and like their stuff...but they've really screwed up on this one. At this
: level, they should either deliver the goods, or don't
: deliver at all. What's most frustrating is that they knew in
: advance about it (this is known due to their recognition of RG's
: review of a pre-production unit, and the later confirmation that the
: production units suffer the EXACT same problem Canon was notified
: about). When/if there is a fix, I'll likely be somewhere in Africa where
: it's
: impossible to benefit from it.
: Bummer.
:
: Mark,
: Have you talked directly to Canon technical support and
: told them of your impending trip? Maybe you could send them
: your 1D3 and they send you a 1D2 for your Africa trip
: (I would suggest that to them if they don't offer it).
: One could hope they will have a firmware update that
: solves the problem pretty quick.
:
: Roger
:
: Hmmm... That might be worth a try. I took my 1D3 to Irvine today, but I
: frankly don't expect a real fix when I pick it up on Monday. I might just
: try that...though I'll be gone for 7 weeks. They might not be too wild
: about such a long loan. If it doesn't appear that the camera is fixed (I'll
: take my laptop and test it), then I may try your suggestion. That's
: something I hadn't thought of...
:
: Thanks, Roger.

I agree with Roger. I think I read somewhere (in this newsgroup maybe?) that
Canon recognizes that those who spring for one of the world's most expensive
cameras deserve a degree of special treatment. If I were Canon's North
American sales manager, I'd let you have anything you want for those seven
weeks. It would be well worth it to have you tell us that they went the extra
mile and show us the great pictures of lions, tigers, and bears that you'll
bring back. And it's worth absolutely nothing to Canon to have you tell us
what pricks they were to stonewall you and how lucky you were that Nikon
stepped in and loaned you a demo model of their flagship camera for your trip.
;^)

Bob

Robert Coe wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 04:32:19 -0700, "Mark²" mjmorgan(lowest even
number wrote:
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote:
Mark² wrote:

We agree on that. I'm pretty disgusted, frankly. I'm a Canon guy,
and like their stuff...but they've really screwed up on this one.
At this level, they should either deliver the goods, or don't
deliver at all. What's most frustrating is that they knew in
advance about it (this is known due to their recognition of RG's
review of a pre-production unit, and the later confirmation that
the production units suffer the EXACT same problem Canon was
notified about). When/if there is a fix, I'll likely be somewhere
in Africa where it's
impossible to benefit from it.
Bummer.

Mark,
Have you talked directly to Canon technical support and
told them of your impending trip? Maybe you could send them
your 1D3 and they send you a 1D2 for your Africa trip
(I would suggest that to them if they don't offer it).
One could hope they will have a firmware update that
solves the problem pretty quick.

Roger

Hmmm... That might be worth a try. I took my 1D3 to Irvine today,
but I frankly don't expect a real fix when I pick it up on Monday.
I might just try that...though I'll be gone for 7 weeks. They might
not be too wild about such a long loan. If it doesn't appear that
the camera is fixed (I'll take my laptop and test it), then I may
try your suggestion. That's something I hadn't thought of...

Thanks, Roger.

I agree with Roger. I think I read somewhere (in this newsgroup
maybe?) that Canon recognizes that those who spring for one of the
world's most expensive cameras deserve a degree of special treatment.
If I were Canon's North American sales manager, I'd let you have
anything you want for those seven weeks. It would be well worth it to
have you tell us that they went the extra mile and show us the great
pictures of lions, tigers, and bears that you'll bring back. And it's
worth absolutely nothing to Canon to have you tell us what pricks
they were to stonewall you and how lucky you were that Nikon stepped
in and loaned you a demo model of their flagship camera for your
trip. ;^)

Bob

Perhaps I'll print this thread and take it to them on Monday.

--
Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
www.pbase.com/markuson

RichA wrote:
On Jun 29, 8:05 am, Rebecca Ore wrote:
In article ,

"G.T." wrote:
This is why religiously following "18-month" rule eliminates
technical and financial hardships. It's totally and utterly
foolish to keep any dSLR body
past its useful life expectancy of 18-months.

Very rich, very very rich in more ways than one.

It may be that beyond 18 months, the older camera body has almost no
resale value. I was re-reading a photography magazine from 1999 when
2.1 MP was considered state of the art and the DSLR was a Nikon
F5/Kodak hybrid.

Last weekend, I saw a camera one or two developmental cycles earlier
(N90/Kodak DSLR) that was supposedly still operational in a camera
store's junk box for $5. It was just over one MP, and had gone for
silly amounts of money in the early 1990s.

Compare that to prices of early 1990s film cameras -- some are in
the $5 junk box along with the old digital, some go for almost as
much as they did when they were released.

I haven't seen quite this level of devaluation. The cheapest name
brand P&S digitals of 1-2 megapixels seem to go for about $50, 3-4 meg
about $100, depending on the model. I've seen this in-store to. On
Ebay, second-last generation Kodak DSLRs go for $900-$1000 and last
generation go for about $1500.00, provided they are in decent shape.

Have you priced FILM point-and-shoots lately?????


--
Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
www.pbase.com/markuson