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How many roll film tanks?



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 17th 04, 07:23 PM
Icius
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default How many roll film tanks?

Hello All,

I have been studying Ansel Adams' three excellent photography books
and trying to plan some things for a darkroom I am building. I was
reading the "Roll Film Processing" section in "The Negative". Most
places online indicate that one tank is used and chemicals are dumped
out and replaced by the chemicals in the next step. Ansel's
instructions seem to indicate a separate processing tank for each
step. I think this is further clarified by the pictures in which each
tank has a different letter on the front. I counted five as follows:

1. Pre-soak
2. Developer
3. Stop Bath
4. Fixer
5. Hypo clearing agent

Being new at this I am trying to stay as true to Ansel's
instructions/technique as possible as a starting point. I figure if I
follow the instructions of one of the masters it will eliminate a lot
of initial frustration. What are all of you doing? One tank or
separate tanks? Anyone tried both and noticed a difference? It seems
like chemical residue in the single tank scenario could play a part in
affecting development.
  #2  
Old October 17th 04, 09:30 PM
Bob Salomon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
(Icius) wrote:

Hello All,

I have been studying Ansel Adams' three excellent photography books
and trying to plan some things for a darkroom I am building. I was
reading the "Roll Film Processing" section in "The Negative". Most
places online indicate that one tank is used and chemicals are dumped
out and replaced by the chemicals in the next step. Ansel's
instructions seem to indicate a separate processing tank for each
step. I think this is further clarified by the pictures in which each
tank has a different letter on the front. I counted five as follows:

1. Pre-soak
2. Developer
3. Stop Bath
4. Fixer
5. Hypo clearing agent

Being new at this I am trying to stay as true to Ansel's
instructions/technique as possible as a starting point. I figure if I
follow the instructions of one of the masters it will eliminate a lot
of initial frustration. What are all of you doing? One tank or
separate tanks? Anyone tried both and noticed a difference? It seems
like chemical residue in the single tank scenario could play a part in
affecting development.


Want to do all the processing in the dark or in room light?

If you follow Adams directions you will spend your time in the dark. If
you process rolls the way the vast majority of workers have over the
past 40 years, or so, you will only be in the dark when you load the
film.

Take your choice. Both methods work. One is prone to fewer lost rolls
due to accidents like someone unwittingly opening a door at the wrong
moment.

--
To reply no_ HPMarketing Corp.
  #3  
Old October 17th 04, 09:30 PM
Bob Salomon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
(Icius) wrote:

Hello All,

I have been studying Ansel Adams' three excellent photography books
and trying to plan some things for a darkroom I am building. I was
reading the "Roll Film Processing" section in "The Negative". Most
places online indicate that one tank is used and chemicals are dumped
out and replaced by the chemicals in the next step. Ansel's
instructions seem to indicate a separate processing tank for each
step. I think this is further clarified by the pictures in which each
tank has a different letter on the front. I counted five as follows:

1. Pre-soak
2. Developer
3. Stop Bath
4. Fixer
5. Hypo clearing agent

Being new at this I am trying to stay as true to Ansel's
instructions/technique as possible as a starting point. I figure if I
follow the instructions of one of the masters it will eliminate a lot
of initial frustration. What are all of you doing? One tank or
separate tanks? Anyone tried both and noticed a difference? It seems
like chemical residue in the single tank scenario could play a part in
affecting development.


Want to do all the processing in the dark or in room light?

If you follow Adams directions you will spend your time in the dark. If
you process rolls the way the vast majority of workers have over the
past 40 years, or so, you will only be in the dark when you load the
film.

Take your choice. Both methods work. One is prone to fewer lost rolls
due to accidents like someone unwittingly opening a door at the wrong
moment.

--
To reply no_ HPMarketing Corp.
  #4  
Old October 17th 04, 09:30 PM
Bob Salomon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
(Icius) wrote:

Hello All,

I have been studying Ansel Adams' three excellent photography books
and trying to plan some things for a darkroom I am building. I was
reading the "Roll Film Processing" section in "The Negative". Most
places online indicate that one tank is used and chemicals are dumped
out and replaced by the chemicals in the next step. Ansel's
instructions seem to indicate a separate processing tank for each
step. I think this is further clarified by the pictures in which each
tank has a different letter on the front. I counted five as follows:

1. Pre-soak
2. Developer
3. Stop Bath
4. Fixer
5. Hypo clearing agent

Being new at this I am trying to stay as true to Ansel's
instructions/technique as possible as a starting point. I figure if I
follow the instructions of one of the masters it will eliminate a lot
of initial frustration. What are all of you doing? One tank or
separate tanks? Anyone tried both and noticed a difference? It seems
like chemical residue in the single tank scenario could play a part in
affecting development.


Want to do all the processing in the dark or in room light?

If you follow Adams directions you will spend your time in the dark. If
you process rolls the way the vast majority of workers have over the
past 40 years, or so, you will only be in the dark when you load the
film.

Take your choice. Both methods work. One is prone to fewer lost rolls
due to accidents like someone unwittingly opening a door at the wrong
moment.

--
To reply no_ HPMarketing Corp.
  #5  
Old October 17th 04, 11:51 PM
Uranium Committee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

(Icius) wrote in message . com...
Hello All,

I have been studying Ansel Adams' three excellent photography books
and trying to plan some things for a darkroom I am building. I was
reading the "Roll Film Processing" section in "The Negative".


Most of the value in those old books is ofuse for sheet film users,
not roll film users.

Most
places online indicate that one tank is used and chemicals are dumped
out and replaced by the chemicals in the next step.


Correct. That's the rational way to do it.

Ansel's
instructions seem to indicate a separate processing tank for each
step. I think this is further clarified by the pictures in which each
tank has a different letter on the front. I counted five as follows:

1. Pre-soak
2. Developer
3. Stop Bath
4. Fixer
5. Hypo clearing agent

Being new at this I am trying to stay as true to Ansel's
instructions/technique as possible as a starting point.


Don't even CONSIDER doing that. He's a wacko. Ignore thos old books!

I figure if I
follow the instructions of one of the masters it will eliminate a lot
of initial frustration. What are all of you doing? One tank or
separate tanks? Anyone tried both and noticed a difference? It seems
like chemical residue in the single tank scenario could play a part in
affecting development.


Ansel Adams's books are quite old, and nobody takes them seriously
anymore, ESPECIALLY if you're doing 35mm. Are you? Get a set of
Paterson tanks and reels. The Paterson tanks empty and refill very
quickly. I use ONE tanks and pour the solutions in and out. Using
multiple tanks means transferring your reels in total darkness.
  #6  
Old October 17th 04, 11:51 PM
Uranium Committee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

(Icius) wrote in message . com...
Hello All,

I have been studying Ansel Adams' three excellent photography books
and trying to plan some things for a darkroom I am building. I was
reading the "Roll Film Processing" section in "The Negative".


Most of the value in those old books is ofuse for sheet film users,
not roll film users.

Most
places online indicate that one tank is used and chemicals are dumped
out and replaced by the chemicals in the next step.


Correct. That's the rational way to do it.

Ansel's
instructions seem to indicate a separate processing tank for each
step. I think this is further clarified by the pictures in which each
tank has a different letter on the front. I counted five as follows:

1. Pre-soak
2. Developer
3. Stop Bath
4. Fixer
5. Hypo clearing agent

Being new at this I am trying to stay as true to Ansel's
instructions/technique as possible as a starting point.


Don't even CONSIDER doing that. He's a wacko. Ignore thos old books!

I figure if I
follow the instructions of one of the masters it will eliminate a lot
of initial frustration. What are all of you doing? One tank or
separate tanks? Anyone tried both and noticed a difference? It seems
like chemical residue in the single tank scenario could play a part in
affecting development.


Ansel Adams's books are quite old, and nobody takes them seriously
anymore, ESPECIALLY if you're doing 35mm. Are you? Get a set of
Paterson tanks and reels. The Paterson tanks empty and refill very
quickly. I use ONE tanks and pour the solutions in and out. Using
multiple tanks means transferring your reels in total darkness.
  #7  
Old October 17th 04, 11:51 PM
Uranium Committee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

(Icius) wrote in message . com...
Hello All,

I have been studying Ansel Adams' three excellent photography books
and trying to plan some things for a darkroom I am building. I was
reading the "Roll Film Processing" section in "The Negative".


Most of the value in those old books is ofuse for sheet film users,
not roll film users.

Most
places online indicate that one tank is used and chemicals are dumped
out and replaced by the chemicals in the next step.


Correct. That's the rational way to do it.

Ansel's
instructions seem to indicate a separate processing tank for each
step. I think this is further clarified by the pictures in which each
tank has a different letter on the front. I counted five as follows:

1. Pre-soak
2. Developer
3. Stop Bath
4. Fixer
5. Hypo clearing agent

Being new at this I am trying to stay as true to Ansel's
instructions/technique as possible as a starting point.


Don't even CONSIDER doing that. He's a wacko. Ignore thos old books!

I figure if I
follow the instructions of one of the masters it will eliminate a lot
of initial frustration. What are all of you doing? One tank or
separate tanks? Anyone tried both and noticed a difference? It seems
like chemical residue in the single tank scenario could play a part in
affecting development.


Ansel Adams's books are quite old, and nobody takes them seriously
anymore, ESPECIALLY if you're doing 35mm. Are you? Get a set of
Paterson tanks and reels. The Paterson tanks empty and refill very
quickly. I use ONE tanks and pour the solutions in and out. Using
multiple tanks means transferring your reels in total darkness.
  #8  
Old October 18th 04, 12:02 AM
Mike King
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I have lots of tanks and will often use multiple tanks when I have more than
a few rolls to process. I have four eight roll tanks, one is "dry" (and
stays that way). The next three contain developer, stop and fixer. I load
into the dry tank and replace the lid after each roll is loaded, reels are
stacked on a lift rod--if someone would open the door I'd only loose the
roll I am currently loading--it never happens--my family knows I'll sulk for
weeks!! I only put seven rolls onto the lift rod--it's easier to grab the
top of the rod that way. When all rolls are loaded--AND STILL IN THE
DARK!--I lift the rods out of the dry holding tank and submerge into the
developer tank. Lid goes on, timer starts, lights on and process by
inversion for the developing time less one minute, lights off, lid off, lift
the stack into the stop (weak acid stop for this method or you could plunge
the stack into the film washer in the dark if you prefer a wash to an acid
stop) LIGHTS STILL OFF, transfer to fixer and agitate with the lights off in
Rapid Fix, after one last minute in the dark you could flip on the lights
but I'm paranoid and always fix two minutes before putting on the lights.
Continue fixing for the balance of the time and then rinse, treat film with
wash aid and wash and dry. The dry tank can be used for HCA if that's all
the film you have to process or make a tank from PVC for the HCA. When the
film is in the washer flip off the lights and get the next batch loaded.
Each batch of film gets fresh developer, stop bath, fix and HCA are reused.

My method has you in the dark for loading time and a couple of minutes for
stop bath and fix only, it also allows inversion agitation (impossible with
an open tank--obviously), and you don't need to wait for tanks to fill or
empty. Note that if you don't like to get wet I recommend a Kinderman tank
for the developer, those caps fit the best of any I have tried, the rest of
my tanks I bought used at camera swap meets. And if you like to load
without suffering I recommend Hewes or Kinderman reels, too. Though I have
a bunch of Omega reels that are pretty good, too. The other nice thing
about metal reels is the short drying times, I towel mine off with paper
towels then dry them quickly with a blow dryer. (It's still nice to have
plenty of reels so you can keep cranking out the processing.)

One last tip-film, reels and lift rod displace some of the volume in your
tank. Don't fill the tank all the way with developer, use this process to
determine how much developer you need. Fill the tank with water, add empty
reels and rod, remove rod and reels and then measure the volume of the
remaining water. Write this number down, it's the quantity of developer
required for this method using your tank and reels.
--
darkroommike

----------
"Bob Salomon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Icius) wrote:

Hello All,

I have been studying Ansel Adams' three excellent photography books
and trying to plan some things for a darkroom I am building. I was
reading the "Roll Film Processing" section in "The Negative". Most
places online indicate that one tank is used and chemicals are dumped
out and replaced by the chemicals in the next step. Ansel's
instructions seem to indicate a separate processing tank for each
step. I think this is further clarified by the pictures in which each
tank has a different letter on the front. I counted five as follows:

1. Pre-soak
2. Developer
3. Stop Bath
4. Fixer
5. Hypo clearing agent

Being new at this I am trying to stay as true to Ansel's
instructions/technique as possible as a starting point. I figure if I
follow the instructions of one of the masters it will eliminate a lot
of initial frustration. What are all of you doing? One tank or
separate tanks? Anyone tried both and noticed a difference? It seems
like chemical residue in the single tank scenario could play a part in
affecting development.


Want to do all the processing in the dark or in room light?

If you follow Adams directions you will spend your time in the dark. If
you process rolls the way the vast majority of workers have over the
past 40 years, or so, you will only be in the dark when you load the
film.

Take your choice. Both methods work. One is prone to fewer lost rolls
due to accidents like someone unwittingly opening a door at the wrong
moment.

--
To reply no_ HPMarketing Corp.



  #9  
Old October 18th 04, 12:02 AM
Mike King
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I have lots of tanks and will often use multiple tanks when I have more than
a few rolls to process. I have four eight roll tanks, one is "dry" (and
stays that way). The next three contain developer, stop and fixer. I load
into the dry tank and replace the lid after each roll is loaded, reels are
stacked on a lift rod--if someone would open the door I'd only loose the
roll I am currently loading--it never happens--my family knows I'll sulk for
weeks!! I only put seven rolls onto the lift rod--it's easier to grab the
top of the rod that way. When all rolls are loaded--AND STILL IN THE
DARK!--I lift the rods out of the dry holding tank and submerge into the
developer tank. Lid goes on, timer starts, lights on and process by
inversion for the developing time less one minute, lights off, lid off, lift
the stack into the stop (weak acid stop for this method or you could plunge
the stack into the film washer in the dark if you prefer a wash to an acid
stop) LIGHTS STILL OFF, transfer to fixer and agitate with the lights off in
Rapid Fix, after one last minute in the dark you could flip on the lights
but I'm paranoid and always fix two minutes before putting on the lights.
Continue fixing for the balance of the time and then rinse, treat film with
wash aid and wash and dry. The dry tank can be used for HCA if that's all
the film you have to process or make a tank from PVC for the HCA. When the
film is in the washer flip off the lights and get the next batch loaded.
Each batch of film gets fresh developer, stop bath, fix and HCA are reused.

My method has you in the dark for loading time and a couple of minutes for
stop bath and fix only, it also allows inversion agitation (impossible with
an open tank--obviously), and you don't need to wait for tanks to fill or
empty. Note that if you don't like to get wet I recommend a Kinderman tank
for the developer, those caps fit the best of any I have tried, the rest of
my tanks I bought used at camera swap meets. And if you like to load
without suffering I recommend Hewes or Kinderman reels, too. Though I have
a bunch of Omega reels that are pretty good, too. The other nice thing
about metal reels is the short drying times, I towel mine off with paper
towels then dry them quickly with a blow dryer. (It's still nice to have
plenty of reels so you can keep cranking out the processing.)

One last tip-film, reels and lift rod displace some of the volume in your
tank. Don't fill the tank all the way with developer, use this process to
determine how much developer you need. Fill the tank with water, add empty
reels and rod, remove rod and reels and then measure the volume of the
remaining water. Write this number down, it's the quantity of developer
required for this method using your tank and reels.
--
darkroommike

----------
"Bob Salomon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Icius) wrote:

Hello All,

I have been studying Ansel Adams' three excellent photography books
and trying to plan some things for a darkroom I am building. I was
reading the "Roll Film Processing" section in "The Negative". Most
places online indicate that one tank is used and chemicals are dumped
out and replaced by the chemicals in the next step. Ansel's
instructions seem to indicate a separate processing tank for each
step. I think this is further clarified by the pictures in which each
tank has a different letter on the front. I counted five as follows:

1. Pre-soak
2. Developer
3. Stop Bath
4. Fixer
5. Hypo clearing agent

Being new at this I am trying to stay as true to Ansel's
instructions/technique as possible as a starting point. I figure if I
follow the instructions of one of the masters it will eliminate a lot
of initial frustration. What are all of you doing? One tank or
separate tanks? Anyone tried both and noticed a difference? It seems
like chemical residue in the single tank scenario could play a part in
affecting development.


Want to do all the processing in the dark or in room light?

If you follow Adams directions you will spend your time in the dark. If
you process rolls the way the vast majority of workers have over the
past 40 years, or so, you will only be in the dark when you load the
film.

Take your choice. Both methods work. One is prone to fewer lost rolls
due to accidents like someone unwittingly opening a door at the wrong
moment.

--
To reply no_ HPMarketing Corp.



  #10  
Old October 18th 04, 01:00 AM
Richard Knoppow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Icius" wrote in message
om...
Hello All,

I have been studying Ansel Adams' three excellent
photography books
and trying to plan some things for a darkroom I am
building. I was
reading the "Roll Film Processing" section in "The
Negative". Most
places online indicate that one tank is used and chemicals
are dumped
out and replaced by the chemicals in the next step.
Ansel's
instructions seem to indicate a separate processing tank
for each
step. I think this is further clarified by the pictures
in which each
tank has a different letter on the front. I counted five
as follows:

1. Pre-soak
2. Developer
3. Stop Bath
4. Fixer
5. Hypo clearing agent

Being new at this I am trying to stay as true to Ansel's
instructions/technique as possible as a starting point. I
figure if I
follow the instructions of one of the masters it will
eliminate a lot
of initial frustration. What are all of you doing? One
tank or
separate tanks? Anyone tried both and noticed a
difference? It seems
like chemical residue in the single tank scenario could
play a part in
affecting development.



I think Adams idea here was to avoid uneven development
due to the time it takes to fill and empty the tank. Kodak
also suggests filling the tank ahead of time and putting
the loaded spool in it in the dark.
I've worked both ways and find that if the developing
time is reasonably long there is no significant difference
between putting the film in first or putting the developer
in first. The same wtih the stop bath. Certainly, the fill
and dump times are much shorter if the lid can be taken off
the tank, as it can in the dark.
It is not necessary to use separate tanks, only that the
dumping and filling be done in the dark so that the lid can
be removed from the tank, but see the last paragraph.
A couple of other things. I am not a believer in routine
pre-soaking. Its helpful for some things. Mainly, it is used
to even out the uptake of the developer by the film. The
presoak saturates the emulsion so that the developer must
displace the water by diffusion. This slows down the initial
development and can eliminate some uneveness when the
developer does not contact the film all at once. If the tank
is filled first there is really no need for the presoak.
I like to have film/developer combinations with
developing times no shorter than about 8 minutes. This
allows enough time at the beginning of development for the
developer to soak into the emulsion evenly before much
development happens. Presoaking affects mainly what is
called the induction time of development, that is the time
between the immersion of the film in the developer and the
time the image begins to appear. It is the extension of this
time that tends to even out development. The effect on
overall development time will depend on several factors
including the thickness of the emulsion and the type and pH
of the developer. It is a factor which must be discovered by
experiment, there is no formula for predicting it.
The use of multiple tanks is common when processing
large amounts of film. Nikor made tall tanks that took about
eight rolls of 120 and double that of 35mm film. These are
not really daylight tanks, the spools are on lifting rods
and are transferred from one tank to another. Once in the
tank the lights can be on and the tanks are agitated like
the small ones by inversion. The lifting rods are very often
missing when these tanks are sold.
In short, presoaking or the use of a pre-filled tank is
useful when development times are necessarily short but make
diminishing difference as the development time is extended.
There can be an effect on uniformity from the stop bath if
it is poured in very slowly. However, because the film is
already wet, and saturated by developer, the effect is much
less than the effect of uneven application of developer.
Fixing baths are used to completion so any uneveness in
application is of no consequence.
I recommend two bath fixing for both film and paper and a
brief wash between fixing and wash aid, although the latter
is really not necessary if the wash aid is not reused.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA



 




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