Death of the slapping mirror

"Neil Harrington" wrote in message
...
[]
And I'm sure you know what the R in SLR stands for. The Pellix and the
few others like it were clearly SLRs.

The auto-focus function in the Sony camera is certainly reflex, but the
viewing not. Perhaps it deserves a small "r" - SLr.

David

In article , David J Taylor
writes
"Neil Harrington" wrote in message
m...
[]
And I'm sure you know what the R in SLR stands for. The Pellix and
the few others like it were clearly SLRs.

The auto-focus function in the Sony camera is certainly reflex, but the
viewing not. Perhaps it deserves a small "r" - SLr.

Like the small "r" at the start of "rangefinder". ;-)

The PD AF system is just an electronic version of the traditional
optical rangefinder with the baseline being the working aperture of the
AF system.
--
Kennedy
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's ****ed.
Python Philosophers (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)

Alfred Molon wrote:
In article , Alan Browne
says...
I also doubt the mirror will disappear as soon as some believe/hope.

Huge advantage if that mirror goes:
- no mirror movement vibrations any more (MLU no longer needed)
- much faster cameras (faster AF, higher frame rate)
- 100% match between viewfinder/LCD image and what is being recorded
- more accurate metering if the main sensor is used for metering

Huge advantages if the mirror stays:
- Zero[1] power cost to watch through the viewfinder. All EVIL
viewfinder screens need power to display and most all will need
significant power to light the screen.[2]
- a few cm at lightspeed view lag. EVIL cameras need to read
the data from the sensor, postprocess it and write it to the
viewfinder screen.
- inbuild non-glare function. At night all electronic viewfinders
need lighting, and I haven't yet found one that can be turned
down low enough to not at least damage night vision, much less
one that does that automatically.
During daytime the viewfinder is automatically much brighter,
without needing extra lighting.
- cooler (less noisy) main sensor, as it and the amplifiers and
digitizers can be switched off unless you are actually taking an
image now. Google amplifier glow. EVIL cameras need sensor,
amplifiers and digitizers to run just to show something on
the viewfinder.
- viewfinder quality is only determined by optics, not by how
few dots a viewfinder has. Current viewfinders have around
VGA resolution (ca. 640x480, or ca. 1 Mio dots). That's not
much at all --- even camera makers think so and allow zooming
for manual focussing. (Which is a nice feature.)[3]
- no mirror movement necessary, as soon mirrors will be optionally
risable pellicle mirrors.[4] If you need the 33% of the light
the pellicle mirror eats for the viewfinder, it'll rise like
a current SLR's mirror. Further in the future is the electric
mirror, where a current makes the mirror stop mirroring and
can also act as a shutter.[5]
- much faster AF, since dedicated phase detection AF sensors know
which direction and how far the focus motor needs to be turned.
(Additionally, the sensors are more light sensitive and/or
more detailed than the main sensor can be.[6]) Even today they
are programmed by the lens on how much to offset that result
to reach an overall maximum sharpness (different colours of
light are refracted in different degrees and the AF sensors
sensitivity need not necessarily align with what the eye
sees dominantly).
EVIL cameras need to guess the direction of the focus by try
and error and reach being in focus the same way, step by step.
And the darker it becomes, the worse the focussing capability.
- 100% viewfinders are possible, that's not an EVIL only feature.
- dedicated metering sensors are better than the main sensor for
metering, since they can be purpose built. Of course, if you
insist, use the main sensor: see pellicle mirror.
- Frame rate only depends on the main sensor --- just as with
EVIL cameras. See pellicle mirror. Just keep the shutter
open, if need be.

-Wolfgang

[1] near zero for overlays, as in 'drains the camera slower than
the self discharge of the battery'.
[2] You could use ambient light during the day, but not at night.
[3] For these situations lifeview and back monitors were invented.
[4] It's such a trivial idea, it must be patented by now.
[5] It should be possible to adjust the strength of the mirror,
too.
[6] EVIL cameras need to mostly use the green pixels for sharpness,
loosing 50% of the light to red and blue sensors, light is
stopped by the green filters too --- and the distance to the
next green pixel is SQRT(2) of the pixel spacing.

On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 01:53:01 +0200, Wolfgang Weisselberg
wrote:

Alfred Molon wrote:
In article , Alan Browne
says...
I also doubt the mirror will disappear as soon as some believe/hope.

Huge advantage if that mirror goes:
- no mirror movement vibrations any more (MLU no longer needed)
- much faster cameras (faster AF, higher frame rate)
- 100% match between viewfinder/LCD image and what is being recorded
- more accurate metering if the main sensor is used for metering

Huge advantages if the mirror stays:
- Zero[1] power cost to watch through the viewfinder. All EVIL
viewfinder screens need power to display and most all will need
significant power to light the screen.[2]

Making EVF's functional in low light levels where the gain can be ramped
up. Long after optical viewfinders have been rendered totally useless.
500-800 images per set of batteries is of no consideration.

- a few cm at lightspeed view lag. EVIL cameras need to read
the data from the sensor, postprocess it and write it to the
viewfinder screen.

Taking 23 microseconds in most of them. That's 10 times faster than human
reaction time. An imaginary complaint on your part. No doubt caused by you
never having used any camera, mirrored or mirrorless, in your life.

- inbuild non-glare function. At night all electronic viewfinders
need lighting, and I haven't yet found one that can be turned
down low enough to not at least damage night vision, much less
one that does that automatically.

That's because you've never used any of them. It's easy to not find one
that can do this, when you haven't used any at all.

During daytime the viewfinder is automatically much brighter,
without needing extra lighting.

Not true.

- cooler (less noisy) main sensor, as it and the amplifiers and
digitizers can be switched off unless you are actually taking an
image now. Google amplifier glow. EVIL cameras need sensor,
amplifiers and digitizers to run just to show something on
the viewfinder.

Amp glow exists in all cameras. Google for amp-glow DSLR, and you'll get
just as many hits with image examples.

- viewfinder quality is only determined by optics, not by how
few dots a viewfinder has. Current viewfinders have around
VGA resolution (ca. 640x480, or ca. 1 Mio dots). That's not
much at all --- even camera makers think so and allow zooming
for manual focussing. (Which is a nice feature.)[3]

Since you can't see an image magnified enough in an optical viewfinder for
precision focusing, then the magnified digital viewfinder has a decided
advantage. In all other cases it is only used for framing. But with the
added benefit of an EVF allowing you to also see color-balance and proper
exposure in real-time. As well as any shutter-speed effects for capturing
milky waterfalls or stopping a hummingbird's wings in crisp outlines,
before you even press the shutter.

- no mirror movement necessary, as soon mirrors will be optionally
risable pellicle mirrors.[4] If you need the 33% of the light
the pellicle mirror eats for the viewfinder, it'll rise like
a current SLR's mirror. Further in the future is the electric
mirror, where a current makes the mirror stop mirroring and
can also act as a shutter.[5]

Moving mirrors add 85ms of shutter lag, whereas most mirrorless cameras
today have a shutter-lag of around 45ms. And that INCLUDES the 23ms EVF
lag.

- much faster AF, since dedicated phase detection AF sensors know
which direction and how far the focus motor needs to be turned.

Not "much faster", only slightly faster. But much more INACCURATE. Google
for DSLR back front focusing error. EVF equipped cameras can also focus in
lighting so dim that you can no longer even see an image in an optical
viewfinder.

snipped the rest of you pretend-photographer TROLL'S bull**** because it's
so ****ingly tedious having to correct it all every time you post

You would do well to find a different newsgroup to infest, where someone
can't so easily expose you for the know-nothing zero-experience TROLL that
you are.

On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 01:53:01 +0200, Wolfgang Weisselberg
wrote:

Alfred Molon wrote:
In article , Alan Browne
says...
I also doubt the mirror will disappear as soon as some believe/hope.

Huge advantage if that mirror goes:
- no mirror movement vibrations any more (MLU no longer needed)
- much faster cameras (faster AF, higher frame rate)
- 100% match between viewfinder/LCD image and what is being recorded
- more accurate metering if the main sensor is used for metering

Huge advantages if the mirror stays:
- Zero[1] power cost to watch through the viewfinder. All EVIL
viewfinder screens need power to display and most all will need
significant power to light the screen.[2]

Making EVF's functional in low light levels where the gain can be ramped
up. Long after optical viewfinders have been rendered totally useless.
500-800 images per set of batteries is of no consideration.

- a few cm at lightspeed view lag. EVIL cameras need to read
the data from the sensor, postprocess it and write it to the
viewfinder screen.

Taking 23 milliseconds in most of them. That's 10 times faster than human
reaction time. An imaginary complaint on your part. No doubt caused by you
never having used any camera, mirrored or mirrorless, in your life.

- inbuild non-glare function. At night all electronic viewfinders
need lighting, and I haven't yet found one that can be turned
down low enough to not at least damage night vision, much less
one that does that automatically.

That's because you've never used any of them. It's easy to not find one
that can do this, when you haven't used any at all.

During daytime the viewfinder is automatically much brighter,
without needing extra lighting.

Not true.

- cooler (less noisy) main sensor, as it and the amplifiers and
digitizers can be switched off unless you are actually taking an
image now. Google amplifier glow. EVIL cameras need sensor,
amplifiers and digitizers to run just to show something on
the viewfinder.

Amp glow exists in all cameras. Google for amp-glow DSLR, and you'll get
just as many hits with image examples.

- viewfinder quality is only determined by optics, not by how
few dots a viewfinder has. Current viewfinders have around
VGA resolution (ca. 640x480, or ca. 1 Mio dots). That's not
much at all --- even camera makers think so and allow zooming
for manual focussing. (Which is a nice feature.)[3]

Since you can't see an image magnified enough in an optical viewfinder for
precision focusing, then the magnified digital viewfinder has a decided
advantage. In all other cases it is only used for framing. But with the
added benefit of an EVF allowing you to also see color-balance and proper
exposure in real-time. As well as any shutter-speed effects for capturing
milky waterfalls or stopping a hummingbird's wings in crisp outlines,
before you even press the shutter.

- no mirror movement necessary, as soon mirrors will be optionally
risable pellicle mirrors.[4] If you need the 33% of the light
the pellicle mirror eats for the viewfinder, it'll rise like
a current SLR's mirror. Further in the future is the electric
mirror, where a current makes the mirror stop mirroring and
can also act as a shutter.[5]

Moving mirrors add 85ms of shutter lag, whereas most mirrorless cameras
today have a shutter-lag of around 45ms. And that INCLUDES the 23ms EVF
lag.

- much faster AF, since dedicated phase detection AF sensors know
which direction and how far the focus motor needs to be turned.

Not "much faster", only slightly faster. But much more INACCURATE. Google
for DSLR back front focusing error. EVF equipped cameras can also focus in
lighting so dim that you can no longer even see an image in an optical
viewfinder.

snipped the rest of you pretend-photographer TROLL'S bull**** because it's
so ****ingly tedious having to correct it all every time you post

You would do well to find a different newsgroup to infest, where someone
can't so easily expose you for the know-nothing zero-experience TROLL that
you are.