sun damage

Can a ccd-cmos sensor be ruined by shooting sunsets, is it unadvisable
to shoot into the sun.

m Ransley wrote:
Can a ccd-cmos sensor be ruined by shooting sunsets, is it unadvisable
to shoot into the sun.

short answer - No, or at least *extremely unlikely*.


Long answer..

Any sensor can be damaged by prolonged exposure to intense light,
especially where there is a lot of high energy IR and UV (ie, the
sun..). But at sunset/rise, the levels of light, IR and UV are all
heavily attenuated due to the extra atmosphere, inc. dust/water
vapour/etc. Risk is reduced. DSLR's do not expose the sensor to light
until moment of exposure (except new Oly 330..?). So the risk is much
less than with a p&s.

In summary:

DSLR - very difficult to damage this way, forget about it unless you
really screw up the exposure.

P&S - while thinking/composing, don't leave the camera 'staring' at the
sun. If the sun image remains focused on the same area of the sensor
for more than a few seconds, the risk of damage will increase.

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
Can a ccd-cmos sensor be ruined by shooting sunsets, is it unadvisable
to shoot into the sun.

It is certainly a no - no to point your camera directly at the sun, but
sunsets are different. I would say the bottom line is that if you can look
at it with the naked eye it's okay to point your camera at it. I've taken
tons of sunsets with no problems.

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:59:51 -0600, "Sheldon"
wrote:


"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
Can a ccd-cmos sensor be ruined by shooting sunsets, is it unadvisable
to shoot into the sun.

I often HAVE to take pictures with the sun in view - looking up at
yacht masts, and unable to move around much to change the angle as I
can't walk on water. I am however very aware of the potential for
damage by prolonged static exposure (I was brought up on 1960s
technology TV cameras where doing this would cause wreck the very
expensive camera tube very fast)

I've used several good quality P&S digitals and never had a problem.
But don't leave a digital P&S lying down on its back looking straight
up into overhead sun - I'm sure this probably would burn the sensor.

John Wilson

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Sheldon wrote:
"m Ransley" wrote in message
...

Can a ccd-cmos sensor be ruined by shooting sunsets, is it unadvisable
to shoot into the sun.


It is certainly a no - no to point your camera directly at the sun, but
sunsets are different. I would say the bottom line is that if you can look
at it with the naked eye it's okay to point your camera at it. I've taken
tons of sunsets with no problems.

That's the rule I follow. A digicam's sensor is on when the
camera is on, so that you can preview a picture on the lcd
display. Keep thatin mind, and don't point the camera right
at the sun even if you aren't taking a photo.

Marvin writes:

That's the rule I follow. A digicam's sensor is on when the
camera is on, so that you can preview a picture on the lcd
display. Keep thatin mind, and don't point the camera right
at the sun even if you aren't taking a photo.

If you're particularly worried about this, you can probably turn off
the LCD display and set the camera to manual focus, then use the
optical viewfinder for aiming. At least with the Canon P&S cameras
I've used, this closes the mechanical shutter and keeps it closed until
the (brief) image-capturing exposure.

In daytime sunlight, you're probably shooting at f/5.6 (or wider) at
1/500 or 1/1000 second. There's not much risk in damaging the sensor
or fading the filter array if the shutter's only open for a few
milliseconds.

Dave

Dave Martindale wrote:
: Marvin writes:

: That's the rule I follow. A digicam's sensor is on when the
: camera is on, so that you can preview a picture on the lcd
: display. Keep thatin mind, and don't point the camera right
: at the sun even if you aren't taking a photo.

: If you're particularly worried about this, you can probably turn off
: the LCD display and set the camera to manual focus, then use the
: optical viewfinder for aiming. At least with the Canon P&S cameras
: I've used, this closes the mechanical shutter and keeps it closed until
: the (brief) image-capturing exposure.

: In daytime sunlight, you're probably shooting at f/5.6 (or wider) at
: 1/500 or 1/1000 second. There's not much risk in damaging the sensor
: or fading the filter array if the shutter's only open for a few
: milliseconds.

As far as the sensor is concerned you are probably right. But there are
other concerns about sunlight and lenses. If a camera lens focuses the
direct rays of the sun on a mechanical shutter it is actually possible to
burn or melt a hole in the shutter or at least cause damage that can cause
shutter stickage. So even when the camera is off, if the lens is
uncovered, it is never a good idea to allow the sun to shine directly into
the lens.

As to the original question concerning sunup/sundown, If you can look at
the sunrise with your naked eye it is probably safe to take a photo of it.
If you are able to look at it with sunglasses, a correspondingly dark
polarizer or ND filter would allow a safe photo taking. Use your eyes as a
very good benchmark of the safety of taking a photo of the sun. BTW, I
wouldn't entirely count on the iris of the camera (f-stop) to reduce sun
brightness as this is after the lens and can run into focused light
problems. The majority of over bright light reduction should be done prior
to the lenses (filters etc) to reduce the problems.

Randy

==========
Randy Berbaum
Champaign, IL

Randy Berbaum wrote:

As far as the sensor is concerned you are probably right. But there are
other concerns about sunlight and lenses. If a camera lens focuses the
direct rays of the sun on a mechanical shutter it is actually possible to
burn or melt a hole in the shutter or at least cause damage that can cause
shutter stickage. So even when the camera is off, if the lens is
uncovered, it is never a good idea to allow the sun to shine directly into
the lens.

I would be interested in seeing a camera where this actually happened.
The lens does not concentrate light to a searing hot point on the
shutter -- it disperses it into a circle larger than the shutter. I
could be wrong, but tales of the sun burning a hole in the shutter
strike me as being an urban legend. Hmmm. It is sunny outside and I am
in the tropics, the worst possible conditions. Maybe I'll just take a
lens or two out there and see if I can start a fire with the circle set
as big as the sensor. I'll let you know.

cjcampbell wrote:
Randy Berbaum wrote:

As far as the sensor is concerned you are probably right. But there are
other concerns about sunlight and lenses. If a camera lens focuses the
direct rays of the sun on a mechanical shutter it is actually possible to
burn or melt a hole in the shutter or at least cause damage that can cause
shutter stickage. So even when the camera is off, if the lens is
uncovered, it is never a good idea to allow the sun to shine directly into
the lens.

I would be interested in seeing a camera where this actually happened.
The lens does not concentrate light to a searing hot point on the
shutter -- it disperses it into a circle larger than the shutter. I
could be wrong, but tales of the sun burning a hole in the shutter
strike me as being an urban legend. Hmmm. It is sunny outside and I am
in the tropics, the worst possible conditions. Maybe I'll just take a
lens or two out there and see if I can start a fire with the circle set
as big as the sensor. I'll let you know.

Okay, I used a black garbage sack and the AF-S Nikkor 18-70mm 1:3.5 kit
lens. No go. Even with the light concentrated to a pinpoint I could not
melt a hole in a black plastic garbage bag. I tried it holding the
aperture all the way open, too, and at both 18 and 70mm. With the image
circle the size of the sensor I could not even get it to feel warm on
the back of my hand (you have hold it awfully close to make the circle
that large), but it is very hot if you hold the lens far enough away to
make just a pinpoint. The sun was high overhead; it was about 2:00 in
the afternoon here in the Philippines. As a small child I used to use a
large magnifying glass to burn all kinds of things, so I have a pretty
good idea of how to start a fire with a lens, too.

So, my guess is urban legend. You can't burn a hole in your shutter
with the lens. I suppose it could be possible that some very fast lens
on a camera that has a small image circle might cause a problem, but
not too many people walk around with a point and shoot with a four inch
diameter lens on the front.

This is pretty much in keeping with observations on eye damage in
people who have been staring at the sun (solar retinopathy). The eye is
not burned at all; instead the damage results from swelling on the back
of the eye. The mechanism for causing the swelling is not completely
understood, but it is known to be photochemical, not thermal. Thermal
damage would require the internal temperature of the eye to be raise at
least 25 degrees C, but looking at the sun only raises the internal
temperature by 4 degrees. If focused heat were the problem, even
looking at the sun for a few seconds would cause permanent damage. In
fact, permanent damage does not occur until you have been staring at
the sun for at least a few minutes; much longer than most people will
tolerate. The normal eye is quite capable of viewing the sun long
enough to measure color, size, and brightness without damage --
everyone knows that the sun is yellow because they have seen it. It is
the short wavelengths that cause the damage, not the long wavelengths.

During a sunset the short wavelengths are scattered and the sun appears
red, yet you can look at the sun for some time. It is just as hot as
before, but it is not damaging your eye because the short wavelengths
are gone.

Unfortunately, you can comfortably look at a solar eclipse for much
longer than is safe. The short wavelengths are still present during a
total eclipse. They are not scattered and are just as dangerous as
staring at the noonday sun. And of course drugs can make the eye much
more sensitive and prone to damage from sunlight. Even so, reports of
incidents of solar retinopathy are typically lower than 1 in 100,000,
and usually the eye makes a full recovery within four months.

As a side note, Galileo did not, as some web sites claim (even NASA and
some observatories, which should know better) go blind from staring at
the sun. Galileo went blind at age 72 from glaucoma and cataracts. He
had been observing the sun for more than 25 years by that time, with no
mention anywhere of problems with his vision. The rumor that Galileo
went blind from staring at the sun appears to have been started by a
company making protective filters for teachers and students to look at
the sun. You tell enough science teachers something like that and you
suddenly have a whole generation of kids who learned in science class
that Galileo went blind from solar retinopathy. I suppose it is the
same generation of kids who think that Pocahantas married Captain John
Smith. heavy sigh

cjcampbell wrote:

: Okay, I used a black garbage sack and the AF-S Nikkor 18-70mm 1:3.5 kit
: lens. No go. Even with the light concentrated to a pinpoint I could not
: melt a hole in a black plastic garbage bag. I tried it holding the
: aperture all the way open, too, and at both 18 and 70mm. With the image
: circle the size of the sensor I could not even get it to feel warm on
: the back of my hand (you have hold it awfully close to make the circle
: that large), but it is very hot if you hold the lens far enough away to
: make just a pinpoint. The sun was high overhead; it was about 2:00 in
: the afternoon here in the Philippines. As a small child I used to use a
: large magnifying glass to burn all kinds of things, so I have a pretty
: good idea of how to start a fire with a lens, too.

: So, my guess is urban legend. You can't burn a hole in your shutter
: with the lens. I suppose it could be possible that some very fast lens
: on a camera that has a small image circle might cause a problem, but
: not too many people walk around with a point and shoot with a four inch
: diameter lens on the front.

Ok, I'll bow to your direct experience. But I think I will still avoid
leaving my lens uncovered and aimed in the direction of mid-day sun, Just
incase. Thanks for your practical experiment. I definately give more
weight to direct experience than taught by rote information. And this
is definately Way more informative than some people's tendancy to jump in
with ridicule and name calling if a statement does not match their
teachings. Thank you for your concidered response and logical test to
prove or disprove.

Randy

==========
Randy Berbaum
Champaign, IL