advantage of high $ 35mm optics vs. MF now lost?

In the past, 35mm shooters had the advantage of very fine (slow) film
stocks to help close the "quality gap" with MF. These films stocks made it
worthwhile to some users to pay a premium for top quality and high $ 35mm
optics (Leica, nikon, zeiss, canon..), since the very fine grained
emulsions available to 35mm shooters made such lens qualities useful.

The discontinuance of the very fine grained slow high quality 35mm films
has now closed that advantage, viz.:

discontinued films:
Agfa ortho 25 B&W 250 lpmm in Zeiss tests
Agfa APX25 B&W 200 lpmm in zeiss tests
Kodak Ektar 25 color negative 200 lpmm in zeiss tests
kodachrome 25 color slide 100 lpmm (mfger specs)
kodak technical pan 6/2415 320 lpmm (1:1000) and 100 lpmm (1.6:1)"

highest spec'd remaining 35mm film stocks:
(1:1000) (1.6:1)
kodak t-max 100 b&W print 200 lpmm 63 lpmm
konica Impresa 50 prof. color print 130 lpmm 80 lpmm
fuji velvia 100 color slide 160 lpmm 80 lpmm

Both Tmax 100 and Velvia 100 are available in both 35mm and MF formats,
and most users of color print films use similar kodak etc. products (not
Konica). So the "35mm very fine grained film gap" is now closed too ;-)

What this means is that the gap between medium format quality and 35mm
quality has gotten larger, and therefore the benefits of using MF over
35mm are now larger too.

The flip side is that the benefits of top quality 35mm optics, often at
price premiums of 100 to 300%+ over less stellar 35mm optics, is reduced
by the lack of very fine grained films needed to fully utilize those
benefits.

Using system resolution equation:

lens aerial resolution film resolution system resolution
tech pan:
200 lpmm 320 lpmm 123 lpmm
400 lpmm 320 lpmm 178 lpmm
600 lpmm 320 lpmm 209 lpmm

Tmax 100:
200 lpmm 200 lpmm 100 lpmm
400 lpmm 200 lpmm 133 lpmm
600 lpmm 200 lpmm 150 lpmm

Using tmax 100 instead of tech pan, a 35mm lens would need to have an
aerial resolution over 1600 lpmm to put the same 178 lpmm on film as
a relatively modest 400 lpmm aerial resolution lens used with tech pan.

A relatively mediocre 300 lpmm aerial resolution 35mm lens with tech pan
produces ~155 lpmm, while it would take a stellar 600+ lpmm aerial
resolution lens (e.g., leica..) to do the same with Tmax 100.

Improving an already great 600 lpmm aerial resolution to 700 lpmm would
only improve the system resolution with Tmax 100 from 150 to 156 lpmm,
about 0.6%, while doing so with tech pan resulted in a 5+% improvement to
220 lpmm.

The benefits of using better lenses are also compressed by lower
resolution films. Going from a good 400 lpmm lens to a stellar 600 lpmm
aerial resolution lens with tech pan produced a 30+ lpmm improvement, but
only 17 lpmm improvement with tmax 100. The compression is worse with the
slower color films, with minimal differences for the color print films.

All of this simply shows that the benefits of higher resolution lenses in
35mm are severely compromised by the loss of very high resolution films
needed to make use of them.

fyi bobm
--
************************************************** *********************
* Robert Monaghan POB 752182 Southern Methodist Univ. Dallas Tx 75275 *
********************Standard Disclaimers Apply*************************

Hi

Your right on the money here. Although any final image quality detail must
take into account three imputs.

Focal Length
Distance
System Resolution.

Meaning that if two photographers one using a med format camera and the other a
35mm camera will capture the same detail at 10 ft if they are using the same
film and same focal length lens.

So two wedding photographers, one using a Nikon with a 50mm lens and the other
using a Hasselblad with a 50mm lens, both at ten feet from the subject and both
using 160 type wedding film, the wedding dress detail will be the same in both
images.

Larry

Hi

Your right on the money here. Although any final image quality detail must
take into account three imputs.

Focal Length
Distance
System Resolution.

Meaning that if two photographers one using a med format camera and the other a
35mm camera will capture the same detail at 10 ft if they are using the same
film and same focal length lens.

So two wedding photographers, one using a Nikon with a 50mm lens and the other
using a Hasselblad with a 50mm lens, both at ten feet from the subject and both
using 160 type wedding film, the wedding dress detail will be the same in both
images.

Larry

I fail to see the logic in this.. Lets take it one step further:
According to Larry's reasoning, Two wedding photographers, one using a
pocket 110 camera retrofitted with a 50mm lens and TMX100 film, (this is
theoretical) would capture the same wedding dress detail at 10 feet as a
Hassy user shooting TMX with a 50mm at 10 feet?

Doesnt smell kosher to me.

Somebody please clarify this.

Mike


"Hemi4268" wrote in message
...
Hi

Your right on the money here. Although any final image quality detail
must
take into account three imputs.

Focal Length
Distance
System Resolution.

Meaning that if two photographers one using a med format camera and the
other a
35mm camera will capture the same detail at 10 ft if they are using the
same
film and same focal length lens.

So two wedding photographers, one using a Nikon with a 50mm lens and the
other
using a Hasselblad with a 50mm lens, both at ten feet from the subject and
both
using 160 type wedding film, the wedding dress detail will be the same in
both
images.

Larry

I fail to see the logic in this.. Lets take it one step further:
According to Larry's reasoning, Two wedding photographers, one using a
pocket 110 camera retrofitted with a 50mm lens and TMX100 film, (this is
theoretical) would capture the same wedding dress detail at 10 feet as a
Hassy user shooting TMX with a 50mm at 10 feet?

Doesnt smell kosher to me.

Somebody please clarify this.

Mike


"Hemi4268" wrote in message
...
Hi

Your right on the money here. Although any final image quality detail
must
take into account three imputs.

Focal Length
Distance
System Resolution.

Meaning that if two photographers one using a med format camera and the
other a
35mm camera will capture the same detail at 10 ft if they are using the
same
film and same focal length lens.

So two wedding photographers, one using a Nikon with a 50mm lens and the
other
using a Hasselblad with a 50mm lens, both at ten feet from the subject and
both
using 160 type wedding film, the wedding dress detail will be the same in
both
images.

Larry

"Michael R. Lachance" wrote:

I fail to see the logic in this.. Lets take it one step further:
According to Larry's reasoning, Two wedding photographers, one using a
pocket 110 camera retrofitted with a 50mm lens and TMX100 film, (this is
theoretical) would capture the same wedding dress detail at 10 feet as a
Hassy user shooting TMX with a 50mm at 10 feet?

Yes, but...

Doesnt smell kosher to me.

Somebody please clarify this.

....the Hassy shooter gets the whole bridal pair, but the 110 shooter
only a face shot. The 110 shot is like a 13x17mm crop of the Hassy's
56x56mm frame.

-- Lassi

(Hemi4268) wrote in message ...
Hi

Your right on the money here. Although any final image quality detail must
take into account three imputs.

Focal Length
Distance
System Resolution.

Meaning that if two photographers one using a med format camera and the other a
35mm camera will capture the same detail at 10 ft if they are using the same
film and same focal length lens.

So two wedding photographers, one using a Nikon with a 50mm lens and the other
using a Hasselblad with a 50mm lens, both at ten feet from the subject and both
using 160 type wedding film, the wedding dress detail will be the same in both
images.

Larry

Except that the guy with the Hasselblad would not be using a 50mm
wide-angle lens on it and cropping down the image to just leave the
bride wearing wedding dress but rather one of a longer focal length
that filled the frame better.

Your comparison did not make sense to me.

(Hemi4268) wrote in message ...
Hi

Your right on the money here. Although any final image quality detail must
take into account three imputs.

Focal Length
Distance
System Resolution.

Meaning that if two photographers one using a med format camera and the other a
35mm camera will capture the same detail at 10 ft if they are using the same
film and same focal length lens.

So two wedding photographers, one using a Nikon with a 50mm lens and the other
using a Hasselblad with a 50mm lens, both at ten feet from the subject and both
using 160 type wedding film, the wedding dress detail will be the same in both
images.

Larry

Except that the guy with the Hasselblad would not be using a 50mm
wide-angle lens on it and cropping down the image to just leave the
bride wearing wedding dress but rather one of a longer focal length
that filled the frame better.

Your comparison did not make sense to me.

(Bob Monaghan) wrote in message ...

You are incorrect. The main advantage of the very slowest films was
fineness of grain, not sharpness. Kodachrome 25 will be missed, but
K64 is almost as good, and better than ANY E-6 film.

As far as B&W films are concerned, the medium-speed films of today are
superb, and very little need exists for the slow ones. I never had
good results with Technical Pan anyway, so it's no big loss.

Except that the guy with the Hasselblad would not be using a 50mm
wide-angle lens

This example is not what someone would use but rather what was used to explain
a point. Image detail has three imputs.

Focal Length
Distance
System Resolution

The wedding dress is only an example of detail.

So yes, if a photographer uses a 110 camera with a 50mm lens ( and they did
exist) using the same film and distance as the Hasselblad photographer with his
50mm lens, the detail in the wedding dress will be the same. Only the
real-estate coverd will be different.

Larry