Friend is looking for a really good P&S

Roy G wrote:

Hi.

These arguments about Li-ion versus AA are totally irrelevant.

How many DSLRs use AA - not a lot.
How many Flashguns use Li-ion - not a lot.

So anyone with a DSLR and a Flash will almost certainly need both.

Well if you insisted on one type, you could use a battery grip for the
D-SLR and use six AA batteries for the camera, and four for the flash.

It is rather a paid that the manufacturers don't do Li-Ion powered flash
units that use the same battery as the camera.

In article , Dave wrote:

It is however annoying that the Li Ion batteries are not used in
standard sizes like AA. To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in
the technology of Li ion which prevents them being put into a standard
size. Perhaps better if its not AA due to the risk of damage to
equipment. But every item having its own side and shape of battery is
not very good for consumers.

rechargable lithium ion batteries are about 3.6 volts. aa batteries
are about 1.5 volts.

Dave wrote:
ASAAR wrote:

You *really* are becoming another SMS style Li-Ion chauvinist.
Li-Ion batteries have some advantages, but so do AA batteries,

It is however annoying that the Li Ion batteries are not used in
standard sizes like AA. To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in
the technology of Li ion which prevents them being put into a standard
size. Perhaps better if its not AA due to the risk of damage to
equipment. But every item having its own side and shape of battery is
not very good for consumers.

Well, I am pretty sure that consumers wouldn't benefit from a battery
with 3.7 volt output being the same size and shape as one with 1.7 volt
output! In fact, I am pretty sure there would a massive hue and cry
about something like that! However, I can see only one reason for the
multitude of different sizes and shapes of lithium ion batteries, and
that is PROFIT.

David J Taylor wrote:
ASAAR wrote:
[]
You *really* are becoming another SMS style Li-Ion chauvinist.
Li-Ion batteries have some advantages, but so do AA batteries,
something that you are becoming more and more unable to admit. Can
you think of any advantages that come with the use of AA batteries?
Don't try too hard, because if you can show a few of them, you will
also have shown that "cutting of(sic) your nose to spite your face"
was a nothing more than a clueless, ignorant statement, what we
might expect from the poison pen of SMS.

ASAAR,

I consider the position to /only/ buy AA-cell powered cameras -
irrespective of what other cameras might have to offer - an unwise one,
unless there are very good reasons for that choice. It would rule out
most DSLR bodies, for example. Ron probably means strong preference,
rather than completely ignoring other cameras, and I hope he will clarify
that.


I already commented that for my GPS I bought it even though it had
multiple AA cells rather than my preferred single-package battery (NiMH,
Li-ion, or whatever). Hardly the action of a "Li-Ion chauvinist."

Cheers,
David


My GPS (eXplorist 400) has a lithium ion battery, and I like the 17 hour
use time before it needs a recharge, but the long recharge time (8
hours) is more than a bit annoying, as is the need to replace it in only
3 or 4 years.
As for cameras, if it were a case of some overriding need for a really
compact camera, then I might buy one that doesn't use AA batteries.
However, I won't be buying on without an optical viewfinder. There are
features I just won't be without, like at least 4X optical zoom, and at
least minimal manual control of some aspects, even if it is hard to use.
These aspects just aren't negotiable. For a general purpose camera,
AA batteries are a very strong advantage, given my use patterns, and
personal preferences. With Eneloop batteries, and the option to use
disposable lithium batteries, or alkaline AA batteries, I should be able
to get power pretty much anywhere I an likely to be. I normally carry a
fully charged NiMH set, and two sets of disposable lithium batteries for
the camera. I just wish the GPS were as flexible, battery use-wise.

SMS wrote:
David J Taylor wrote:
ASAAR wrote:
[]
You *really* are becoming another SMS style Li-Ion chauvinist.
Li-Ion batteries have some advantages, but so do AA batteries,
something that you are becoming more and more unable to admit. Can
you think of any advantages that come with the use of AA batteries?
Don't try too hard, because if you can show a few of them, you will
also have shown that "cutting of(sic) your nose to spite your face"
was a nothing more than a clueless, ignorant statement, what we
might expect from the poison pen of SMS.
ASAAR,

I consider the position to /only/ buy AA-cell powered cameras -
irrespective of what other cameras might have to offer - an unwise one,
unless there are very good reasons for that choice. It would rule out
most DSLR bodies, for example. Ron probably means strong preference,
rather than completely ignoring other cameras, and I hope he will clarify
that.


I already commented that for my GPS I bought it even though it had
multiple AA cells rather than my preferred single-package battery (NiMH,
Li-ion, or whatever). Hardly the action of a "Li-Ion chauvinist."

Despite the vitriol by the individual above, of course I too have many
AA powered devices, including some cameras.

What some of us are able to do is to honestly look at the big picture
when selecting electronic products, and not obsess over the battery type
in cases when it makes little difference, but consider the battery type
as part of the whole package.

I point out _eight_ advantages of AA batteries over Li-Ion batteries on
the web site. Alas, those advantages tend to be rather minor, while many
of the advantages of Li-Ion batteries over AA batteries are quite major.

It truly is "cutting off your nose to spite your face" to choose camera
equipment based primarily on it using AA batteries. Not only do you end
up with much poorer equipment in most cases, but the whole premise is
based on ignorance. In D-SLRs, you'd limit yourself to one Pentax model.
In sub-compacts you're totally out of luck.

A few people tend to get tunnel vision on the subject of AA batteries,
obsessing over the fact that they can't run into a 7-11 while on a
backpacking trip through the back country of Africa to buy some Duracell
batteries that will give them the ability to take a few more photographs
for every dollar they spend. They don't understand (or they understand,
but don't want to admit) that they've put themselves into this very
situation by not understanding the technology.

Steve
"http://batterydata.com"

[Simply type "Li-Ion versus NiMH" into the Google search box and click
on "I'm feeling Lucky". This site is now the most visited site on the
web for battery comparison data.]

I assure you, I understand the technology, and I have NO intention of
backpacking ANYWHERE, let along in Africa. However, on a trip into some
of the more rural areas of Oklahoma, I did pop into a convenience store
and buy some AA batteries (for my old GPS, in that case). Now, if my
GPS battery died, I would be without power, unless I had my laptop around.
The bottom line, with me, is the convenience, and security of multiple
options. I am sure that I would probably never had a problem with a
lithium ion battery powered camera, given that many of them will take
more pictures than I normally take in a year, on one charge, but I like
the options, and the flexibility.

As for choosing a camera based on a single criteria... I don't, but two
issues are vastly more important than just about any others. First is
size, and it MUST fit in a pants pocket as I won't carry one otherwise,
which would make it a paperweight. Second is an optical viewfinder. No
need to tell me how great EVFs are, I am aware of their benefits, I just
DON'T like them. Third is battery type, and it is important to me. I
am an old fart, and I am just not willing to let go of certain aspects
of the traditional photographic experience. So, if you think I am being
illogical, you are probably right, but I am not telling you to buy a
camera that uses AA batteries, and has an optical viewfinder, because it
just don't matter to me what you find preferable.

Roy G wrote:
"Ron Hunter" wrote in message
...
SMS wrote:
Rich wrote:

snip

Only if you plan on using disposable batteries, what kind of retard
would do that?
That's a bit harsh, since there are some advantages of AA batteries that
go beyond that.

In fact being able to buy AA disposable batteries at a convenience store
if all your rechargeables are dead and you have no way to charge them
from AC or from a vehicle charger is such an unlikely event that it
really can't be considered an advantage at all, especially since with AA
cells you're far more likely to get into this situation in the first
place.

Still, the advantages of Li-Ion rechargeables are so overwhelming that
it's definitely a negative when they can't be used.
For you, maybe. Not for a lot of others. It may be more in how you use
your camera, than what type of battery you choose. Certainly the Lithium
ion batteries have many advantages, but easily availability certainly is
NOT one of them.



Hi.

These arguments about Li-ion versus AA are totally irrelevant.

How many DSLRs use AA - not a lot.
How many Flashguns use Li-ion - not a lot.

So anyone with a DSLR and a Flash will almost certainly need both.

Perhaps the protagonists are willing to do without, if a piece of gear
happens to use the "wrong" kind of battery, but most of us have more sense.

Roy G


I don't use DSLRs. They are too big.
I don't use Flashguns, for the same reason.
So, where does your argument go now?

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 10:31:28 GMT, David J Taylor wrote:

I already commented that for my GPS I bought it even though it had
multiple AA cells rather than my preferred single-package battery (NiMH,
Li-ion, or whatever). Hardly the action of a "Li-Ion chauvinist."

Having that GPS unit changes nothing. SMS owns at least one,
possibly more cameras that use AA batteries. He is most definitely
a Li-Ion, anti-AA bigot. The "Li-Ion chauvinist" description fits
you like a glove. I notice that you didn't try to enumerate any of
the AA advantages I asked about. Perhaps a less harsh description
would paint you as a Li-Ion evangelist. But just as with Mac
evangelists and religious evangelists, a certain percentage become
fanatical zealots. It appears that you're heading in that direction
with your near religious devotion to Li-Ion batteries, protestations
notwithstanding.

nospam wrote on Thu, 14 Aug 2008 06:11:09 -0700:

It is however annoying that the Li Ion batteries are not used
in standard sizes like AA. To the best of my knowledge, there
is nothing in the technology of Li ion which prevents them
being put into a standard size. Perhaps better if its not AA
due to the risk of damage to equipment. But every item having
its own side and shape of battery is not very good for
consumers.

rechargable lithium ion batteries are about 3.6 volts.
aa batteries are about 1.5 volts.
..
So, my old Nikon can use 2 alkalines or NIMHs or a single CR-V3. It's
not an insuperable problem to design the camera to use more than one
shape.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

"Ron Hunter" wrote in message
...
Roy G wrote:
"Ron Hunter" wrote in message
...
SMS wrote:
Rich wrote:

snip

Only if you plan on using disposable batteries, what kind of retard
would do that?
That's a bit harsh, since there are some advantages of AA batteries
that go beyond that.

In fact being able to buy AA disposable batteries at a convenience
store if all your rechargeables are dead and you have no way to charge
them from AC or from a vehicle charger is such an unlikely event that
it really can't be considered an advantage at all, especially since
with AA cells you're far more likely to get into this situation in the
first place.

Still, the advantages of Li-Ion rechargeables are so overwhelming that
it's definitely a negative when they can't be used.
For you, maybe. Not for a lot of others. It may be more in how you use
your camera, than what type of battery you choose. Certainly the
Lithium ion batteries have many advantages, but easily availability
certainly is NOT one of them.



Hi.

These arguments about Li-ion versus AA are totally irrelevant.

How many DSLRs use AA - not a lot.
How many Flashguns use Li-ion - not a lot.

So anyone with a DSLR and a Flash will almost certainly need both.

Perhaps the protagonists are willing to do without, if a piece of gear
happens to use the "wrong" kind of battery, but most of us have more
sense.

Roy G
I don't use DSLRs. They are too big.
I don't use Flashguns, for the same reason.
So, where does your argument go now?

I don't have an argument - I just get on with things. As my young sister
says -- "life's a bitch or you are dead".

Roy G

Ron Hunter wrote:
SMS wrote:
Rich wrote:

snip

Only if you plan on using disposable batteries, what kind of retard
would do that?

That's a bit harsh, since there are some advantages of AA batteries
that go beyond that.

In fact being able to buy AA disposable batteries at a convenience
store if all your rechargeables are dead and you have no way to
charge them from AC or from a vehicle charger is such an unlikely
event that it really can't be considered an advantage at all,
especially since with AA cells you're far more likely to get into
this situation in the first place.

Still, the advantages of Li-Ion rechargeables are so overwhelming
that it's definitely a negative when they can't be used.

For you, maybe. Not for a lot of others. It may be more in how you
use your camera, than what type of battery you choose. Certainly the
Lithium ion batteries have many advantages, but easily availability
certainly is NOT one of them.

I cannot see any advantages. I have a Canon S5IS that uses 4 AA
rechargeable (15 minute duracel batteries) and have not problems. I
bought a bunch of plastic holders and carry 2 sets of spares. Since I
rarely use flash and shoot mostly with the EVF I get almost 500 shots on
a charge.

I can also buy standard AA almost anyplace if I get into a bind. I have
not problem changing out the batteries at all so I really cannot see any
advantages to a Li-ion battery pack at all. Additionally they are
proprietary and more expensive.