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#1
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Told you Sony's 24mp sensor was noisy
I noticed it in the NEX-7 results and now, it seems that the SLT-A77 has
the issue. However, the camera does show really high resolution. The Pentax K5 remains the noise control king of APS. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonyslta77/page14.asp |
#2
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Told you Sony's 24mp sensor was noisy
On 26/10/2011 4:04 p.m., Rich wrote:
I noticed it in the NEX-7 results and now, it seems that the SLT-A77 has the issue. However, the camera does show really high resolution. The Pentax K5 remains the noise control king of APS. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonyslta77/page14.asp With the Pentax K5 it looks like a /****load/ of NR goes on between reading the sensor and so-called "raw file". |
#3
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Told you Sony's 24mp sensor was noisy
On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 22:04:16 -0500, Rich wrote:
I noticed it in the NEX-7 results and now, it seems that the SLT-A77 has the issue. However, the camera does show really high resolution. The Pentax K5 remains the noise control king of APS. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonyslta77/page14.asp But the NEX looks better than the A77 since it receives more light. I expected higher noise levels from the more densely packed sensor, but what I'd like to see is prints from these cams. Viewing these images at 100% on screen tells me little. My NEX 7 is still on pre-order. |
#4
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Told you Sony's 24mp sensor was noisy
On Wed, 26 Oct 2011 06:32:46 -0700 (PDT), RichA wrote:
: On Oct 26, 2:18*am, Me wrote: : On 26/10/2011 4:04 p.m., Rich wrote: I noticed it in the NEX-7 results and now, it seems that the SLT-A77 has : the issue. *However, the camera does show really high resolution. : The Pentax K5 remains the noise control king of APS. : : http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonyslta77/page14.asp : : With the Pentax K5 it looks like a /****load/ of NR goes on between : reading the sensor and so-called "raw file". : : If it results in loss of detail or quality, that's not good. Well, is it that or just that the default presentation of the RAW image is set to a high NR level? If the latter (as I think it would be in the Canon world), then you could back it off with no overall loss of information. Bob |
#5
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Told you Sony's 24mp sensor was noisy
On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 06:51:02 -0700 (PDT), RichA
wrote: On Oct 26, 11:29*am, Bowser wrote: On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 22:04:16 -0500, Rich wrote: I noticed it in the NEX-7 results and now, it seems that the SLT-A77 has the issue. *However, the camera does show really high resolution. The Pentax K5 remains the noise control king of APS. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonyslta77/page14.asp But the NEX looks better than the A77 since it receives more light. I expected higher noise levels from the more densely packed sensor, but what I'd like to see is prints from these cams. Viewing these images at 100% on screen tells me little. My NEX 7 is still on pre-order. I'm still wondering about a choice. A new "pro" Panasonic m4/3rds is due and Sony's production is compromised. I think the best we can hope for in the GX1 is the sensor in the G3. Good, not in Sony's class. I think that the sensor in the NEX 7, when not handicapped by a pellicle mirror will be about a stop better. Just guessing. For me, if it's good up to ISO 3200 I'm OK with it. |
#6
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Told you Sony's 24mp sensor was noisy
In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Bruce wrote:
Rich wrote: I noticed it in the NEX-7 results and now, it seems that the SLT-A77 has the issue. However, the camera does show really high resolution. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonyslta77/page14.asp The level of high ISO noise is quite frightening. We had some images from both an NEX-7 and an A77 at a Sony event. The noise levels at high ISOs were extremely high. We were reassured that the cameras were pre-production samples and that the production cameras would be much better. It seems that they aren't. Sony Alpha has a long history of disappointments and this is just one more to add to the list. You would think that Sony would learn from their mistakes, but they just keep on making the same ones, over and over again. The Pentax K5 remains the noise control king of APS. Sony makes some excellent sensors that perform exceptionally well in other brands of camera. But put the same (or similar) sensor in a Sony camera, and the results are very disappointing. The 16 MP sensor in the Pentax K-5 is also used in the Nikon D7000 and several Sony models. In the Pentax and Nikon it delivers excellent image quality with very good noise control - the Pentax just shades the Nikon in this respect. But put the same sensor in a Sony A35 or NEX-C3, and it becomes one of the noisiest sensors on the market. The same was true of the 24 MP full frame A900 (and later A850) whose high ISO noise was desperately bad. Yet the Sony-made 24 MP sensor in the full frame Nikon D3X performed extremely well. However the sensors are not the same, so the conclusions here are less clear, except that if you want low noise at high ISOs, don't buy Sony. In other words there's nothing wrong with the sensor. Which suggests the problem must be in the processing, i.e. other camera makers have better in-camera jpeg noise reduction, and possibly put a bit of NR in between the sensor and the supposedly unprocessed RAW image file. In recent years we've seen a number of new much improved noise reduction methods available as stand-alone programs or editor plug-ins which not surprisingly give better results than in-camera noise reduction. So the interesting question is whether when these improved noise reducers are applied to Sony RAW images you get noise reduction at least comparable to that offered by other camera makers. You certainly get an amazing improvement over what Sony's own in-camera jpeg noise reduction offers. But how does it then compare to what you can get from Nikon and Canon with similar processing? -- Chris Malcolm |
#7
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Told you Sony's 24mp sensor was noisy
In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Bruce wrote:
RichA wrote: On a pixel size to pixel size basis, the Panasonic GH2 sensor beats all the Sony cameras. Again, if they ever scale up the technology to APS or (dare I say it?) FF size, it will be amazing. That is very unlikely ever to happen, though. The Sony A700 body was unique and remarkably well-suited to the hand, IMO. The new 77 is really nothing like it. Sony makes soooo many mistakes in product design. I agree, the A700 handled well. It was the best of the Alpha DSLR range, and the de facto top-of-the-range model, given the sheer incompetence of the full frame A900 and A850. The A700 had/still has a lot of loyal followers. Now, Sony is trying to replace a very good DSLR with a thoroughly mediocre SLT, with all the problems that the pellicle mirror and EVF bring. Plus at least one major advantage of the pellicle mirror: no mirror vibration, and the electronic "shutter" opening means no shutter vibration either. -- Chris Malcolm |
#8
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Told you Sony's 24mp sensor was noisy
On 27 Oct 2011 18:10:13 GMT, Chris Malcolm wrote:
: In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Bruce wrote: : Rich wrote: : I noticed it in the NEX-7 results and now, it seems that the SLT-A77 has : the issue. However, the camera does show really high resolution. : : http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonyslta77/page14.asp : : The level of high ISO noise is quite frightening. We had some images : from both an NEX-7 and an A77 at a Sony event. The noise levels at : high ISOs were extremely high. We were reassured that the cameras : were pre-production samples and that the production cameras would be : much better. It seems that they aren't. : : Sony Alpha has a long history of disappointments and this is just one : more to add to the list. You would think that Sony would learn from : their mistakes, but they just keep on making the same ones, over and : over again. : : The Pentax K5 remains the noise control king of APS. : : Sony makes some excellent sensors that perform exceptionally well in : other brands of camera. But put the same (or similar) sensor in a : Sony camera, and the results are very disappointing. : : The 16 MP sensor in the Pentax K-5 is also used in the Nikon D7000 and : several Sony models. In the Pentax and Nikon it delivers excellent : image quality with very good noise control - the Pentax just shades : the Nikon in this respect. But put the same sensor in a Sony A35 or : NEX-C3, and it becomes one of the noisiest sensors on the market. : : The same was true of the 24 MP full frame A900 (and later A850) whose : high ISO noise was desperately bad. Yet the Sony-made 24 MP sensor in : the full frame Nikon D3X performed extremely well. However the : sensors are not the same, so the conclusions here are less clear, : except that if you want low noise at high ISOs, don't buy Sony. : : In other words there's nothing wrong with the sensor. Which suggests : the problem must be in the processing, i.e. other camera makers have : better in-camera jpeg noise reduction, and possibly put a bit of NR in : between the sensor and the supposedly unprocessed RAW image file. In : recent years we've seen a number of new much improved noise reduction : methods available as stand-alone programs or editor plug-ins which not : surprisingly give better results than in-camera noise reduction. : : So the interesting question is whether when these improved noise : reducers are applied to Sony RAW images you get noise reduction at : least comparable to that offered by other camera makers. You certainly : get an amazing improvement over what Sony's own in-camera jpeg noise : reduction offers. : : But how does it then compare to what you can get from Nikon and Canon : with similar processing? By default, Canon estimates the amount of noise reduction you need and applies it to the RAW file. But no information is lost; and if you don't want the NR, you can easily reverse it in the photo editor. Occasionally I'll decide that an image needs more NR and tweak it upwards in PP. It makes the image a bit blurrier, but usually the overall effect is improved. I'm not sure this is an answer to the question you posed, but maybe it helps define the context. Bob |
#9
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Told you Sony's 24mp sensor was noisy
In rec.photo.digital Bruce wrote:
Bowser wrote: I think that the sensor in the NEX 7, when not handicapped by a pellicle mirror will be about a stop better. Just guessing. For me, if it's good up to ISO 3200 I'm OK with it. Sony claims that the pellicle mirror robs only about one third of a stop of light. Without any means of verifying that claim, we have no option but to take it at face value. Those who have compared NEX-7 with A77 exposures have found about 1/3 stop difference. -- Chris Malcolm |
#10
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Told you Sony's 24mp sensor was noisy
On 10/28/2011 8:52 AM, Robert Coe wrote:
On 27 Oct 2011 18:10:13 GMT, Chris wrote: : In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems wrote: : wrote: :I noticed it in the NEX-7 results and now, it seems that the SLT-A77 has :the issue. However, the camera does show really high resolution. : :http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonyslta77/page14.asp : : The level of high ISO noise is quite frightening. We had some images : from both an NEX-7 and an A77 at a Sony event. The noise levels at : high ISOs were extremely high. We were reassured that the cameras : were pre-production samples and that the production cameras would be : much better. It seems that they aren't. : : Sony Alpha has a long history of disappointments and this is just one : more to add to the list. You would think that Sony would learn from : their mistakes, but they just keep on making the same ones, over and : over again. : :The Pentax K5 remains the noise control king of APS. : : Sony makes some excellent sensors that perform exceptionally well in : other brands of camera. But put the same (or similar) sensor in a : Sony camera, and the results are very disappointing. : : The 16 MP sensor in the Pentax K-5 is also used in the Nikon D7000 and : several Sony models. In the Pentax and Nikon it delivers excellent : image quality with very good noise control - the Pentax just shades : the Nikon in this respect. But put the same sensor in a Sony A35 or : NEX-C3, and it becomes one of the noisiest sensors on the market. : : The same was true of the 24 MP full frame A900 (and later A850) whose : high ISO noise was desperately bad. Yet the Sony-made 24 MP sensor in : the full frame Nikon D3X performed extremely well. However the : sensors are not the same, so the conclusions here are less clear, : except that if you want low noise at high ISOs, don't buy Sony. : : In other words there's nothing wrong with the sensor. Which suggests : the problem must be in the processing, i.e. other camera makers have : better in-camera jpeg noise reduction, and possibly put a bit of NR in : between the sensor and the supposedly unprocessed RAW image file. In : recent years we've seen a number of new much improved noise reduction : methods available as stand-alone programs or editor plug-ins which not : surprisingly give better results than in-camera noise reduction. : : So the interesting question is whether when these improved noise : reducers are applied to Sony RAW images you get noise reduction at : least comparable to that offered by other camera makers. You certainly : get an amazing improvement over what Sony's own in-camera jpeg noise : reduction offers. : : But how does it then compare to what you can get from Nikon and Canon : with similar processing? By default, Canon estimates the amount of noise reduction you need and applies it to the RAW file. But no information is lost; and if you don't want the NR, you can easily reverse it in the photo editor. Occasionally I'll decide that an image needs more NR and tweak it upwards in PP. It makes the image a bit blurrier, but usually the overall effect is improved. I'm not sure this is an answer to the question you posed, but maybe it helps define the context. AFAIK NR is usually accomplished by color blurring. -- Peter |
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