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Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.



 
 
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  #31  
Old March 27th 15, 08:07 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 10:10:11 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 16:50:46 GMT, "MC" wrote:

Savageduck wrote:


Most importantly, did you have the printer handle color management in
both, or did you have "Photoshop Manages Colors" + appropriate icc
profile, and "Other" with an icc profile selected in LR? ...or did
you have different color management in PS and LR?


This is indeed the crucial question, the answer of which will more than
probably lead to the reason behind the reason why there are two
differing outputs.

The printer will only print the data it is told to print. If two
differing profiles are used from two different applications there is no
guarantee of identical prints.


Same profile used in all cases. Epson's 'Pro38 PGPP'

The easiest option when using two applications, regardless which you
use for your editing, is to stick to one for tweaking output and actual
printing.


There are times when one feels thick: when you learn something which
is probably known by most other people.

In the process of trying to answer this question about the differences
between PS and LR when printing it was forcibly brought home to me
that an image suitable for viewing on screen is probably not at all
suitable for printing: and vice versa. I have produced several hundred
images suitable for viewing on screen only to belatedly realise that
most of them exceed the colour gamut of my choice of printer and
paper. Duh!

One lives and learns.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #32  
Old March 27th 15, 08:54 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Floyd L. Davidson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,138
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

Eric Stevens wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 10:10:11 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 16:50:46 GMT, "MC" wrote:

Savageduck wrote:


Most importantly, did you have the printer handle color management in
both, or did you have "Photoshop Manages Colors" + appropriate icc
profile, and "Other" with an icc profile selected in LR? ...or did
you have different color management in PS and LR?


This is indeed the crucial question, the answer of which will more than
probably lead to the reason behind the reason why there are two
differing outputs.

The printer will only print the data it is told to print. If two
differing profiles are used from two different applications there is no
guarantee of identical prints.


Same profile used in all cases. Epson's 'Pro38 PGPP'

The easiest option when using two applications, regardless which you
use for your editing, is to stick to one for tweaking output and actual
printing.


There are times when one feels thick: when you learn something which
is probably known by most other people.

In the process of trying to answer this question about the differences
between PS and LR when printing it was forcibly brought home to me
that an image suitable for viewing on screen is probably not at all
suitable for printing: and vice versa. I have produced several hundred
images suitable for viewing on screen only to belatedly realise that
most of them exceed the colour gamut of my choice of printer and
paper. Duh!

One lives and learns.


Exactly why all the fussing folks do with colorspace is
usually a total waste. For that matter, most of the
efforts that photographers make with White Balance is
also a total waste for the exact same reasons.

When they get done virtually always there are just one
or two things done with the image: 1) print it, or 2)
let random people view it on random computers. In the
first case the color gamut is limited to what the
printer can produce and editing with a greater gamut is
wasted effort. In the second case the gamut might be
slightly higher, but the average random computer on the
Internet isn't even close.

If you print... use sRGB and calibrate the monitor at a
brightness, gamma and color temperature that is as close
as possible to the specific printer.

If you post to the web, use sRGB and give it no thought
because nobody will see exactly what you see.

Only if you do graphic arts production and must be able
to match a similar image printed by someone else, then
exact colors do actually make a difference and the fuss
with colorspace is significant. But very few
photographers do that kind of production work. An example
is magazine layout where a yellow logo has to be exactly
the same yellow on opposing pages.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)
  #33  
Old March 27th 15, 09:29 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 23:54:06 -0800, (Floyd L.
Davidson) wrote:

Eric Stevens wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 10:10:11 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 16:50:46 GMT, "MC" wrote:

Savageduck wrote:


Most importantly, did you have the printer handle color management in
both, or did you have "Photoshop Manages Colors" + appropriate icc
profile, and "Other" with an icc profile selected in LR? ...or did
you have different color management in PS and LR?


This is indeed the crucial question, the answer of which will more than
probably lead to the reason behind the reason why there are two
differing outputs.

The printer will only print the data it is told to print. If two
differing profiles are used from two different applications there is no
guarantee of identical prints.

Same profile used in all cases. Epson's 'Pro38 PGPP'

The easiest option when using two applications, regardless which you
use for your editing, is to stick to one for tweaking output and actual
printing.


There are times when one feels thick: when you learn something which
is probably known by most other people.

In the process of trying to answer this question about the differences
between PS and LR when printing it was forcibly brought home to me
that an image suitable for viewing on screen is probably not at all
suitable for printing: and vice versa. I have produced several hundred
images suitable for viewing on screen only to belatedly realise that
most of them exceed the colour gamut of my choice of printer and
paper. Duh!

One lives and learns.


Exactly why all the fussing folks do with colorspace is
usually a total waste. For that matter, most of the
efforts that photographers make with White Balance is
also a total waste for the exact same reasons.

When they get done virtually always there are just one
or two things done with the image: 1) print it, or 2)
let random people view it on random computers. In the
first case the color gamut is limited to what the
printer can produce and editing with a greater gamut is
wasted effort. In the second case the gamut might be
slightly higher, but the average random computer on the
Internet isn't even close.


And if the image exceeds the gamut of the profile of the viewing
device, all the colours are pushed aroud by rules which depend on
whether 'perceptual' or 'relative colorimetric' has been selected. One
thing is certain, almost nobody else is going to see exactly that
which you have laboured so hard to construct.

If you print... use sRGB and calibrate the monitor at a
brightness, gamma and color temperature that is as close
as possible to the specific printer.

If you post to the web, use sRGB and give it no thought
because nobody will see exactly what you see.

Only if you do graphic arts production and must be able
to match a similar image printed by someone else, then
exact colors do actually make a difference and the fuss
with colorspace is significant. But very few
photographers do that kind of production work. An example
is magazine layout where a yellow logo has to be exactly
the same yellow on opposing pages.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #34  
Old March 27th 15, 05:52 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

If you print... use sRGB and calibrate the monitor at a
brightness, gamma and color temperature that is as close
as possible to the specific printer.


bad advice.

the display and printer should be calibrated separately and
independently.

also, the difference between using srgb and a wider space is very
noticeable in prints.

andrew rodney has an in depth video explaining it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLlr7wpAZKs

This three part, 32 minute video covers why a wide gamut RGB working
space like ProPhoto RGB can produce superior quality output to print.

Part 1 discusses how the supplied Gamut Test File was created and
shows two prints output to an Epson 3880 using ProPhoto RGB and sRGB,
how the deficiencies of sRGB gamut affects final output quality. Part
1 discusses what to look for on your own prints in terms of better
color output. It also covers Photoshopıs Assign Profile command and
how wide gamut spaces mishandled produce dull or over saturated
colors due to user error.

Part 2 goes into detail about how to print two versions of the
properly converted Gamut Test File file in Photoshop using
Photoshopıs Print command to correctly setup the test files for
output. It covers the Convert to Profile command for preparing test
files for output to a lab.

Part 3 goes into color theory and illustrates why a wide gamut space
produces not only move vibrant and saturated color but detail and
color separation compared to a small gamut working space like sRGB.

If you post to the web, use sRGB and give it no thought
because nobody will see exactly what you see.


in general that's true, but there are many people with a colour managed
workflow who *can* see what you see, and often more than srgb.

Only if you do graphic arts production and must be able
to match a similar image printed by someone else, then
exact colors do actually make a difference and the fuss
with colorspace is significant. But very few
photographers do that kind of production work. An example
is magazine layout where a yellow logo has to be exactly
the same yellow on opposing pages.


that's entirely different.
  #35  
Old March 27th 15, 11:00 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Floyd L. Davidson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,138
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

nospam wrote:
In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

If you print... use sRGB and calibrate the monitor at a
brightness, gamma and color temperature that is as close
as possible to the specific printer.


bad advice.


Advice that if followed will produce the desired
results without making it into an overly complex
process.

The advice you promote works wonders for those with a
vested interest in the complexity of the process. No
complexity means no market for their products...


the display and printer should be calibrated separately and
independently.

also, the difference between using srgb and a wider space is very
noticeable in prints.

andrew rodney has an in depth video explaining it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLlr7wpAZKs

This three part, 32 minute video covers why a wide gamut RGB working
space like ProPhoto RGB can produce superior quality output to print.

Part 1 discusses how the supplied Gamut Test File was created and
shows two prints output to an Epson 3880 using ProPhoto RGB and sRGB,
how the deficiencies of sRGB gamut affects final output quality. Part
1 discusses what to look for on your own prints in terms of better
color output. It also covers Photoshopıs Assign Profile command and
how wide gamut spaces mishandled produce dull or over saturated
colors due to user error.

Part 2 goes into detail about how to print two versions of the
properly converted Gamut Test File file in Photoshop using
Photoshopıs Print command to correctly setup the test files for
output. It covers the Convert to Profile command for preparing test
files for output to a lab.

Part 3 goes into color theory and illustrates why a wide gamut space
produces not only move vibrant and saturated color but detail and
color separation compared to a small gamut working space like sRGB.

If you post to the web, use sRGB and give it no thought
because nobody will see exactly what you see.


in general that's true, but there are many people with a colour managed
workflow who *can* see what you see, and often more than srgb.

Only if you do graphic arts production and must be able
to match a similar image printed by someone else, then
exact colors do actually make a difference and the fuss
with colorspace is significant. But very few
photographers do that kind of production work. An example
is magazine layout where a yellow logo has to be exactly
the same yellow on opposing pages.


that's entirely different.


--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)
  #36  
Old March 27th 15, 11:41 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

If you print... use sRGB and calibrate the monitor at a
brightness, gamma and color temperature that is as close
as possible to the specific printer.


bad advice.


Advice that if followed will produce the desired
results without making it into an overly complex
process.


only if the desired results are substandard.

The advice you promote works wonders for those with a
vested interest in the complexity of the process. No
complexity means no market for their products...


nonsense. not only is he not selling a product, but there is nothing
complex about working in a wider gamut or better yet, choosing software
that uses a wider gamut internally and not worrying about it.

the display and printer should be calibrated separately and
independently.

also, the difference between using srgb and a wider space is very
noticeable in prints.

andrew rodney has an in depth video explaining it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLlr7wpAZKs

This three part, 32 minute video covers why a wide gamut RGB working
space like ProPhoto RGB can produce superior quality output to print.

Part 1 discusses how the supplied Gamut Test File was created and
shows two prints output to an Epson 3880 using ProPhoto RGB and sRGB,
how the deficiencies of sRGB gamut affects final output quality. Part
1 discusses what to look for on your own prints in terms of better
color output. It also covers Photoshopıs Assign Profile command and
how wide gamut spaces mishandled produce dull or over saturated
colors due to user error.

Part 2 goes into detail about how to print two versions of the
properly converted Gamut Test File file in Photoshop using
Photoshopıs Print command to correctly setup the test files for
output. It covers the Convert to Profile command for preparing test
files for output to a lab.

Part 3 goes into color theory and illustrates why a wide gamut space
produces not only move vibrant and saturated color but detail and
color separation compared to a small gamut working space like sRGB.

If you post to the web, use sRGB and give it no thought
because nobody will see exactly what you see.


in general that's true, but there are many people with a colour managed
workflow who *can* see what you see, and often more than srgb.

Only if you do graphic arts production and must be able
to match a similar image printed by someone else, then
exact colors do actually make a difference and the fuss
with colorspace is significant. But very few
photographers do that kind of production work. An example
is magazine layout where a yellow logo has to be exactly
the same yellow on opposing pages.


that's entirely different.

  #37  
Old March 28th 15, 12:11 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Floyd L. Davidson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,138
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

nospam wrote:
In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

If you print... use sRGB and calibrate the monitor at a
brightness, gamma and color temperature that is as close
as possible to the specific printer.

bad advice.


Advice that if followed will produce the desired
results without making it into an overly complex
process.


only if the desired results are substandard.


Have you ever done any commercial grade printing?

The advice you promote works wonders for those with a
vested interest in the complexity of the process. No
complexity means no market for their products...


nonsense. not only is he not selling a product, but there is nothing
complex about working in a wider gamut or better yet, choosing software
that uses a wider gamut internally and not worrying about it.

the display and printer should be calibrated separately and
independently.

also, the difference between using srgb and a wider space is very
noticeable in prints.

andrew rodney has an in depth video explaining it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLlr7wpAZKs

This three part, 32 minute video covers why a wide gamut RGB working
space like ProPhoto RGB can produce superior quality output to print.

Part 1 discusses how the supplied Gamut Test File was created and
shows two prints output to an Epson 3880 using ProPhoto RGB and sRGB,
how the deficiencies of sRGB gamut affects final output quality. Part
1 discusses what to look for on your own prints in terms of better
color output. It also covers Photoshopıs Assign Profile command and
how wide gamut spaces mishandled produce dull or over saturated
colors due to user error.

Part 2 goes into detail about how to print two versions of the
properly converted Gamut Test File file in Photoshop using
Photoshopıs Print command to correctly setup the test files for
output. It covers the Convert to Profile command for preparing test
files for output to a lab.

Part 3 goes into color theory and illustrates why a wide gamut space
produces not only move vibrant and saturated color but detail and
color separation compared to a small gamut working space like sRGB.

If you post to the web, use sRGB and give it no thought
because nobody will see exactly what you see.

in general that's true, but there are many people with a colour managed
workflow who *can* see what you see, and often more than srgb.

Only if you do graphic arts production and must be able
to match a similar image printed by someone else, then
exact colors do actually make a difference and the fuss
with colorspace is significant. But very few
photographers do that kind of production work. An example
is magazine layout where a yellow logo has to be exactly
the same yellow on opposing pages.

that's entirely different.


--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)
  #38  
Old March 28th 15, 12:19 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

On Thu, 26 Mar 2015 23:54:06 -0800, (Floyd L.
Davidson) wrote:

Eric Stevens wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2015 10:10:11 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 16:50:46 GMT, "MC" wrote:

Savageduck wrote:


Most importantly, did you have the printer handle color management in
both, or did you have "Photoshop Manages Colors" + appropriate icc
profile, and "Other" with an icc profile selected in LR? ...or did
you have different color management in PS and LR?


This is indeed the crucial question, the answer of which will more than
probably lead to the reason behind the reason why there are two
differing outputs.

The printer will only print the data it is told to print. If two
differing profiles are used from two different applications there is no
guarantee of identical prints.

Same profile used in all cases. Epson's 'Pro38 PGPP'

The easiest option when using two applications, regardless which you
use for your editing, is to stick to one for tweaking output and actual
printing.


There are times when one feels thick: when you learn something which
is probably known by most other people.

In the process of trying to answer this question about the differences
between PS and LR when printing it was forcibly brought home to me
that an image suitable for viewing on screen is probably not at all
suitable for printing: and vice versa. I have produced several hundred
images suitable for viewing on screen only to belatedly realise that
most of them exceed the colour gamut of my choice of printer and
paper. Duh!

One lives and learns.


Exactly why all the fussing folks do with colorspace is
usually a total waste. For that matter, most of the
efforts that photographers make with White Balance is
also a total waste for the exact same reasons.

When they get done virtually always there are just one
or two things done with the image: 1) print it, or 2)
let random people view it on random computers. In the
first case the color gamut is limited to what the
printer can produce and editing with a greater gamut is
wasted effort. In the second case the gamut might be
slightly higher, but the average random computer on the
Internet isn't even close.

If you print... use sRGB and calibrate the monitor at a
brightness, gamma and color temperature that is as close
as possible to the specific printer.


But how can you? Your monitor is an illuminated additive RGB device
while a print is a subtractive CMYK device. The closest you can get to
what you advocate is soft proofing.

If you post to the web, use sRGB and give it no thought
because nobody will see exactly what you see.

Only if you do graphic arts production and must be able
to match a similar image printed by someone else, then
exact colors do actually make a difference and the fuss
with colorspace is significant. But very few
photographers do that kind of production work. An example
is magazine layout where a yellow logo has to be exactly
the same yellow on opposing pages.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #39  
Old March 28th 15, 12:22 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 15:11:49 -0800, (Floyd L.
Davidson) wrote:

nospam wrote:
In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

If you print... use sRGB and calibrate the monitor at a
brightness, gamma and color temperature that is as close
as possible to the specific printer.

bad advice.

Advice that if followed will produce the desired
results without making it into an overly complex
process.


only if the desired results are substandard.


Have you ever done any commercial grade printing?


Hmm: arument from authority. :-(

The advice you promote works wonders for those with a
vested interest in the complexity of the process. No
complexity means no market for their products...


nonsense. not only is he not selling a product, but there is nothing
complex about working in a wider gamut or better yet, choosing software
that uses a wider gamut internally and not worrying about it.

the display and printer should be calibrated separately and
independently.

also, the difference between using srgb and a wider space is very
noticeable in prints.

andrew rodney has an in depth video explaining it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLlr7wpAZKs

This three part, 32 minute video covers why a wide gamut RGB working
space like ProPhoto RGB can produce superior quality output to print.

Part 1 discusses how the supplied Gamut Test File was created and
shows two prints output to an Epson 3880 using ProPhoto RGB and sRGB,
how the deficiencies of sRGB gamut affects final output quality. Part
1 discusses what to look for on your own prints in terms of better
color output. It also covers Photoshopıs Assign Profile command and
how wide gamut spaces mishandled produce dull or over saturated
colors due to user error.

Part 2 goes into detail about how to print two versions of the
properly converted Gamut Test File file in Photoshop using
Photoshopıs Print command to correctly setup the test files for
output. It covers the Convert to Profile command for preparing test
files for output to a lab.

Part 3 goes into color theory and illustrates why a wide gamut space
produces not only move vibrant and saturated color but detail and
color separation compared to a small gamut working space like sRGB.

If you post to the web, use sRGB and give it no thought
because nobody will see exactly what you see.

in general that's true, but there are many people with a colour managed
workflow who *can* see what you see, and often more than srgb.

Only if you do graphic arts production and must be able
to match a similar image printed by someone else, then
exact colors do actually make a difference and the fuss
with colorspace is significant. But very few
photographers do that kind of production work. An example
is magazine layout where a yellow logo has to be exactly
the same yellow on opposing pages.

that's entirely different.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #40  
Old March 28th 15, 01:30 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

If you print... use sRGB and calibrate the monitor at a
brightness, gamma and color temperature that is as close
as possible to the specific printer.

bad advice.

Advice that if followed will produce the desired
results without making it into an overly complex
process.


only if the desired results are substandard.


Have you ever done any commercial grade printing?


this isn't about me nor does it have anything to do with commercial
grade printing, as the difference can be seen on consumer printers.

you're moving the goalposts, as usual.

nevertheless, andrew rodney meets your silly and irrelevant
qualifications and provides clear proof that what you say is wrong.

did you even watch the video?

The advice you promote works wonders for those with a
vested interest in the complexity of the process. No
complexity means no market for their products...


nonsense. not only is he not selling a product, but there is nothing
complex about working in a wider gamut or better yet, choosing software
that uses a wider gamut internally and not worrying about it.

the display and printer should be calibrated separately and
independently.

also, the difference between using srgb and a wider space is very
noticeable in prints.

andrew rodney has an in depth video explaining it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLlr7wpAZKs

This three part, 32 minute video covers why a wide gamut RGB working
space like ProPhoto RGB can produce superior quality output to print.

Part 1 discusses how the supplied Gamut Test File was created and
shows two prints output to an Epson 3880 using ProPhoto RGB and sRGB,
how the deficiencies of sRGB gamut affects final output quality. Part
1 discusses what to look for on your own prints in terms of better
color output. It also covers Photoshopıs Assign Profile command and
how wide gamut spaces mishandled produce dull or over saturated
colors due to user error.

Part 2 goes into detail about how to print two versions of the
properly converted Gamut Test File file in Photoshop using
Photoshopıs Print command to correctly setup the test files for
output. It covers the Convert to Profile command for preparing test
files for output to a lab.

Part 3 goes into color theory and illustrates why a wide gamut space
produces not only move vibrant and saturated color but detail and
color separation compared to a small gamut working space like sRGB.

If you post to the web, use sRGB and give it no thought
because nobody will see exactly what you see.

in general that's true, but there are many people with a colour managed
workflow who *can* see what you see, and often more than srgb.

Only if you do graphic arts production and must be able
to match a similar image printed by someone else, then
exact colors do actually make a difference and the fuss
with colorspace is significant. But very few
photographers do that kind of production work. An example
is magazine layout where a yellow logo has to be exactly
the same yellow on opposing pages.

that's entirely different.

 




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