Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

On Thu, 02 Apr 2015 20:50:43 -0800, (Floyd L.
Davidson) wrote:

Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2015 02:21:28 -0800, (Floyd L.
Davidson) wrote:

You hadn't added anything before hand. We discussed self-calibrating
monitors: principally Eizo. Elsewhere you had mentioned that you have
three monitors, an Eizo, an NEC and something else. As we also
discussed, Eizo makes monitors which are not self-calibrating. Nowhere
did you say exactly what you do to calibrate which monitor or how.

We discussed hardware calibration of monitors, and how
that differs from a software calibration. If you had been
paying attention you'd know the answers to these silly
questions you have now.

Get your sequence right.

Nor does you telling us that you "use a ColorNavigator package that
works with ColorEdge enabled monitors.

But note that only CG models are self-calibrating.

That's been made cleqar by all parties already.

http://www.eizoglobal.com/products/coloredge/cn/ describes the
ColorNavigator system. It is clear that it is a software package which
operates with X-Rite, DataColor, Eizo, basICColor, Klein, Photo

Catch the word "Eizo" there. That's the hardware.

It's the color calibrating hardware, not just the monitor.

Research, and Konica Minolta hardware. It also operates on Mac and
Windows, but no mention of Linux or Unix. There is absolutely nothing
in what you have told us that tells us which monitors you calibrate or
how you do it.

And it also makes exactly no difference at all which
specific monitor! I did tell you how it is done though,
and even tried to get across the specific difference
that it makes.

You have refused to hear anything about it, and jump to
conclusions based on things never said in the references
you read.

The only question you could have, given the information I
provided, is what size of monitor I use. How does that
affect this discussion?

You could try tellin _us_ what make and model you have been blithering
about.

I've gone into significant detail about calibration, but
you have such a limited background and such an
astounding stubborn streak that you won't listen to
descriptions needed to understand the topic.

I have no need to attempt to write tutorials when there
are good ones, written by authortative sources,
available. But you don't seem to have read them!

Now along that line we could really have a little fun!
If you can't grasp the significance of Eizo's
calibration tutorials... how about if we look at how
ArgyllCMS works! That isn't fodder for the peons...

http://www.marcelpatek.com/argyll.php

Drip by drip, you are adding information. That system doesn't sound at
all compatible with ColorNavigator. Is it?

Is a Ford compatible with a Chevy? The both provide the
same service and get you to the store and back.

Once again, you are babelling.

How many Fords have a Chevy starter in them?

I've never counted but I suppose you are aware of SAE standards?

Did you by chance scroll down a ways and look at some
details about the procedures used by the Argyll package
to calibrate a monitor?

Command line - yep. But nothing new.


WHY ARE YOU SO RELUCTANT TO TELL US EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE AND EXACTLY
HOW YOU CALIBRATE IT?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2015 20:50:43 -0800, (Floyd L.
Davidson) wrote:

Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2015 02:21:28 -0800, (Floyd L.
Davidson) wrote:

You hadn't added anything before hand. We discussed self-calibrating
monitors: principally Eizo. Elsewhere you had mentioned that you have
three monitors, an Eizo, an NEC and something else. As we also
discussed, Eizo makes monitors which are not self-calibrating. Nowhere
did you say exactly what you do to calibrate which monitor or how.

We discussed hardware calibration of monitors, and how
that differs from a software calibration. If you had been
paying attention you'd know the answers to these silly
questions you have now.

Get your sequence right.

It is!

Nor does you telling us that you "use a ColorNavigator package that
works with ColorEdge enabled monitors.

But note that only CG models are self-calibrating.

That's been made cleqar by all parties already.

Who else here has said that? I've cited information
that says it, and I've stated it. You didn't even catch
the differences when you did read something, and I had
to explain the differences to you.

But what I said was specific to begin with, if you had
only take the time to read what was said!

http://www.eizoglobal.com/products/coloredge/cn/ describes the
ColorNavigator system. It is clear that it is a software package which
operates with X-Rite, DataColor, Eizo, basICColor, Klein, Photo

Catch the word "Eizo" there. That's the hardware.

It's the color calibrating hardware, not just the monitor.

Learn to read. The sentence said *hardware*. It does not
ever operate with software of any of the names in that list.

Research, and Konica Minolta hardware. It also operates on Mac and
Windows, but no mention of Linux or Unix. There is absolutely nothing
in what you have told us that tells us which monitors you calibrate or
how you do it.

And it also makes exactly no difference at all which
specific monitor! I did tell you how it is done though,
and even tried to get across the specific difference
that it makes.

You have refused to hear anything about it, and jump to
conclusions based on things never said in the references
you read.

The only question you could have, given the information I
provided, is what size of monitor I use. How does that
affect this discussion?

You could try tellin _us_ what make and model you have been blithering
about.

Why? It doesn't make any difference.

I didn't even see any need to tell you what brand it was
until you asked specifically. Then it became obvious
that answering irrelevant questions was falling into
your trap to go off on meaningless diversions to avoid
the foolishness you'd been caught in already.

I've gone into significant detail about calibration, but
you have such a limited background and such an
astounding stubborn streak that you won't listen to
descriptions needed to understand the topic.

I have no need to attempt to write tutorials when there
are good ones, written by authortative sources,
available. But you don't seem to have read them!

Now along that line we could really have a little fun!
If you can't grasp the significance of Eizo's
calibration tutorials... how about if we look at how
ArgyllCMS works! That isn't fodder for the peons...

http://www.marcelpatek.com/argyll.php

Drip by drip, you are adding information. That system doesn't sound at
all compatible with ColorNavigator. Is it?

Is a Ford compatible with a Chevy? The both provide the
same service and get you to the store and back.

Once again, you are babelling.

You mean you can't understand. What else is new, eh?

How many Fords have a Chevy starter in them?

I've never counted but I suppose you are aware of SAE standards?

You are babbling. SAE standards have nothing to do
with the fact that Ford cars and Chevy cars both provide
transportation, but each uses different parts internally.

They are compatible at accomplishing the same transportation,
they are not compatible when you are at the parts store.

Same with software for monitor calibration. Parts of the
software packages do not intermix.

Did you by chance scroll down a ways and look at some
details about the procedures used by the Argyll package
to calibrate a monitor?

Command line - yep. But nothing new.

And far more that you can understand.

WHY ARE YOU SO RELUCTANT TO TELL US EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE AND EXACTLY
HOW YOU CALIBRATE IT?

I've told you already exactly how I calibrate it. The
model number does not have any significance to the
discussion. Why do you ignore what is important and
create diversions around what is insignificant.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On Fri, 03 Apr 2015 00:27:15 -0800, (Floyd L.
Davidson) wrote:

--- snip ---

I've told you already exactly how I calibrate it. The
model number does not have any significance to the
discussion. Why do you ignore what is important and
create diversions around what is insignificant.

Because you entered this discussion with a most peculiar statement
about soft-proofing and have been clog dancing all around the subject
ever since. You don't seem on quite the same wave length as the rest
of us and have been arguing defensively from the beginning.

As I said, I've had enough of this.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Eric Stevens wrote:
On Fri, 03 Apr 2015 00:27:15 -0800, (Floyd L.
Davidson) wrote:

--- snip ---

I've told you already exactly how I calibrate it. The
model number does not have any significance to the
discussion. Why do you ignore what is important and
create diversions around what is insignificant.

Because you entered this discussion with a most peculiar statement
about soft-proofing and have been clog dancing all around the subject
ever since. You don't seem on quite the same wave length as the rest
of us and have been arguing defensively from the beginning.

As I said, I've had enough of this.

So rather than put in the effort to understand
the topic, you'd rather throw a little snit fit
because I won't shift the goal posts for you.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On 4/1/2015 1:46 AM, Savageduck wrote:
On 2015-04-01 04:21:19 +0000, Savageduck said:

On 2015-04-01 03:03:41 +0000, Eric Stevens said:
On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 08:46:32 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:
On 2015-03-31 08:16:00 +0000, Eric Stevens said:
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 22:11:23 -0800, (Floyd L.
Davidson) wrote:

OK! I know I am probably making a mistake leaping into this quagmire,
but here goes.

First, other than the adjustment of display brightness, and selection
of Gamma & Temperature (I use 2.2 & D65) I don't believe my Mk.1
eyeball can do a better job than a dedicated display calibration
device. I use the Pantone/X-Rite HueyPro sensor and software for
calibration and to build a custom display profile. The sensor also
servs to monitor ambient light and adjust accordingly.
So where I have the option to use any of the defined display profiles
such as sRGB, Adobe RGB (1998), CIE RGB, etc. I use my HueyPro
generated profile which also helps with setting the white-point.

So, if anybody cares here is the HueyPro / X-Rite user guide, which
spells out the procedure I follow, and my current profile showing the
WP coordinates.
https://www.pantone.com/downloads/products/pdfs/hueyhueyPROUserGuide.pdf

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_58.jpg


Then for printing I am not using custom icc profiles, as the
printer/paper icc profiles I have installed with the Epson driver, and
those provided by Red River Paper do a good job. Particularly after
soft proofing and making some print output tweaks if needed. So I match
those depending on the need.

I'm with you 100%. Thank you for bringing some sense to the brawl.

BTW: Here is my Lightroom setup for a 13"x19" print on Red River aper,
Polar Pearl Metallic. LR manages color with the profile "RR
PolPearlMetallic EpR2880.icc" set. There is also a slight tweak to the
Print Adjustment brightness.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_61.jpg

...and there is always softproofing available in LR where you can make
and see th effects of some of those tweaks.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_62.jpg


I don't give a flying **** about the methodology. That is one really
neat image. Nicely done.


--
PeterN

On 2015-04-04 17:34:45 +0000, PeterN said:

On 4/1/2015 1:46 AM, Savageduck wrote:
On 2015-04-01 04:21:19 +0000, Savageduck said:

On 2015-04-01 03:03:41 +0000, Eric Stevens said:
On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 08:46:32 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:
On 2015-03-31 08:16:00 +0000, Eric Stevens said:
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 22:11:23 -0800, (Floyd L.
Davidson) wrote:

OK! I know I am probably making a mistake leaping into this quagmire,
but here goes.

First, other than the adjustment of display brightness, and selection
of Gamma & Temperature (I use 2.2 & D65) I don't believe my Mk.1
eyeball can do a better job than a dedicated display calibration
device. I use the Pantone/X-Rite HueyPro sensor and software for
calibration and to build a custom display profile. The sensor also
servs to monitor ambient light and adjust accordingly.
So where I have the option to use any of the defined display profiles
such as sRGB, Adobe RGB (1998), CIE RGB, etc. I use my HueyPro
generated profile which also helps with setting the white-point.

So, if anybody cares here is the HueyPro / X-Rite user guide, which
spells out the procedure I follow, and my current profile showing the
WP coordinates.
https://www.pantone.com/downloads/products/pdfs/hueyhueyPROUserGuide.pdf

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_58.jpg


Then for printing I am not using custom icc profiles, as the
printer/paper icc profiles I have installed with the Epson driver, and
those provided by Red River Paper do a good job. Particularly after
soft proofing and making some print output tweaks if needed. So I match
those depending on the need.

I'm with you 100%. Thank you for bringing some sense to the brawl.

BTW: Here is my Lightroom setup for a 13"x19" print on Red River aper,
Polar Pearl Metallic. LR manages color with the profile "RR
PolPearlMetallic EpR2880.icc" set. There is also a slight tweak to the
Print Adjustment brightness.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_61.jpg

...and there is always softproofing available in LR where you can make
and see th effects of some of those tweaks.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_62.jpg


I don't give a flying **** about the methodology. That is one really
neat image. Nicely done.

Thanks! Glad you like it.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 22:10:59 -0800, (Floyd L.
Davidson) wrote:

--- snip ---

With my current setup I have set the brightness to 200 cd/m2. If it's
not close to that, Spyder will tell me it can't properly calibrate the
monitor.

If you actually are using a monitor that outputs that
bright, you do not have anything useful. In fact though
I'm pretty sure that what you actually have is the
hardware set to 200, but the calibration adjusts it down
to something reasonable. See if it tells you after the
calibration process what it ultimately is set at. It
certainly is not 200 cd/m2!

Virtually nobody suggests higher than 120 cd/m2 should
be used if you print. Most will suggest that you get it
below 100, and that ideally it should be about 90 cd/m2.
It does require a pretty good monitor though to go down
to 80 cd/m2.


Without wishing to open up the argument again, the following quote
from may throw some light on my situation:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tut...alibration.htm
"Unlike with the white point and gamma settings, the optimal
luminance setting is heavily influenced by the brightness of your
working environment. Most people set the luminance to anywhere from
100-150 Cd/m2, with brighter working environments potentially
requiring values that exceed this range. The maximum attainable
luminance will depend on your monitor type and age, so this may
ultimately limit how bright your working environment can be."

I have an undesirably bright working environment and short of boarding
up the windows there is nothing more I can do about it. Hence the need
perceived by Spyder for 200 cd/m2.

I am posting this now as I expect I am not alone in this situation.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens