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#11
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Is Panasonic FZ50 being replaced
"Somebody" wrote in
: Who said anything about smaller pixels. I did. By accident. I meant to write "larger pixels". He said drop the resolution to 6MP that means fewer sensors points on the chip and that does make a difference in noise. No, it doesn't necessarily reduce image noise at all. It makes 100% crops, which are an artifact of viewing methods, less noisy. -- John P Sheehy |
#12
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Is Panasonic FZ50 being replaced
"Somebody" wrote in
: There are several options for a 12X or higher zoom for dSLR's. Now the cost of these lenses are in the thousands. I didn't say there couldn't be any. I said they'd be big, and expensive. But, they are available. National Geographic photographers use them all of the time. You need to do some checking before you comment this is the second time you have said something that wasn't correct. It is not my duty to find out about obscure products not carried by any of the know retailers. All of the commonly available 12x zooms for DSLRs are slow, and optically compromised. As for a dSLR sized sensor that would allow for less noise and higher ISO's just like it does for dSLR cameras. Sure the FZ60 or whatever that did this would end up being a much larger camera because of the sensor change which means a larger lens, but it is doable. The problem is most camera makers do not feel that consumers would want such a thing and I think they are totally wrong. If it's going to be as big as a DSLR and an interchangeable lens, it's going to be hard to sell unless it has some very unique features. Oh, the camera would aslo cost more. Probably between $1200 to $1500 about what it costs for a good dSLR and high end zoom lens. You said thousands just for the lens; now the camera and permanent lens are only $1500. -- John P Sheehy |
#13
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Is Panasonic FZ50 being replaced
On Jul 16, 8:14 am, "Billyboy" wrote:
Hi, Several dealers in Uk are not able currently to supply the above camera and UKDigital are showing it as discontinued. Has anyone heard anything about a possible upgrading, and if so what are the new specs? Billy They should replace it with the FZ30, a better camera. |
#14
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Is Panasonic FZ50 being replaced
John Sheehy wrote:
"Somebody" wrote in : No a dSLR size would be fine by me for the larger sensor. In fact I would junk my Pentax K10D for a Panasonic FZ60 that offered the larger sensor, 12X Leica lens and 10MP. There is no lens available for DSLRs with 12x zoom at a constant f/2.8 and sharpness throughout the range, with IS. Why do you think it would suddenly be possible with a non-interchangeable lens? APS-sensor compacts are only going to work with fixed focal length or narrow zoom ranges. John P Sheehy John, With a non-interchangeable lens, there can be slightly more flexibility in the design since the distance between the back of the lens and the sensor is no longer pre-determined, nor is the diameter of the lens fixed by the lens mount. With a small-sensor compact cameras, the smaller lens elements made from exotic materials may cost less, although I do wonder if tolerances are tighter. Previous SLR lenses have been built for film, where high MTF at high spatial frequencies may be important, but with a well-anti aliased 5-6MP sensor, there is no point in working towards a high MTF at spatial frequencies which exceed the frequency which the sensor can resolve. Thus there are some extra design freedoms given to the fixed-lens camera. Panasonic have been able to use this freedom to provide the FZ20 with a lens having a constant f/2.8 throughout its 36 - 432mm (eq) zoom range. Although the images may not have the same ultimate quality as a DSLR equivalent lens, the compromise between size, weight, versatility and performance suits many people. Having said that, scaling that lens up to APS-sized sensors would result in a large, expensive and unwieldy package compared to the smaller of today's DSLRs. Roughly, the larger sensor provides three stops gain, so even with the kit or cheaper zooms with f/5.6 aperture, you still gain with the DSLR. Perhaps having a sealed lens would be an advantage in a very dusty environment, but apart from that you'd have something the size and shape of a DSLR without its versatility. The Sony R1, an example of fixed-lens APS-sensor camera, does not seen to have been spectacularly successful. Cheers, David |
#15
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Is Panasonic FZ50 being replaced
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:56:36 -0700, "Somebody"
wrote: As for a dSLR sized sensor that would allow for less noise and higher ISO's just like it does for dSLR cameras. Sure the FZ60 or whatever that did this would end up being a much larger camera because of the sensor change which means a larger lens, but it is doable. The problem is most camera makers do not feel that consumers would want such a thing and I think they are totally wrong. Sony tried this with their DSC-R1. From what I understand, sales were not up to expectations. -- THIS IS A SIG LINE; NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY! Al Gore's son was pulled over by police on the San Diego Freeway Tuesday with marijuana, Valium, Xanax and Vicodin on him. The kid never had a chance. He got hooked on downers at an early age listening to his father read him bedtime stories. |
#16
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Is Panasonic FZ50 being replaced
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 22:28:31 GMT
John Sheehy wrote: Paul Allen wrote in : On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 19:14:08 -0700 Jeff Burke wrote: I think they should keep about the same sensor size and drop the pixel count down to 6Mp or so, where the FZ30 should have been. The package is very nice. It just needs to go on a pixel diet. Fat chance they'll listen to me. :-) They shouldn't listen to you. Smaller pixels will give no major improvement in image quality; only in pixel quality. Apparently, you meant to say "larger pixels". I'm not sure why you would say the better signal/noise ratio of larger pixels gives no major improvement in image quality. Perhaps you've got some special meaning of "major" or "improvement" in mind? What they need to do is stop damaging the output with heavy-handed noise reduction. Shoot in raw mode and do the noise management yourself if it bothers you so much. I'd rather have somewhat fewer clean pixels than lots of noisy ones. In fact, if Panasonic were to introduce an FZ25 combining the physical package and electronics of the FZ30 with the 5Mp sensor of the FZ20, I'd figure out a way to buy one. Paul Allen |
#17
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Is Panasonic FZ50 being replaced
Paul Allen wrote in
: Apparently, you meant to say "larger pixels". Yes. There's no second-chance edit capability in usenet, unfortunately, and no way to guarantee that a correction will be read before the original by others. I'm not sure why you would say the better signal/noise ratio of larger pixels gives no major improvement in image quality. Perhaps you've got some special meaning of "major" or "improvement" in mind? I just can not find any examples of larger pixels or bins of pixels giving any better results, if the data is properly handled. I believe that the recent backlash against small pixels is caused by: 1) 100% pixel monitor viewing, and resampling routines that do not really resample properly, but emphasize a subset of original pixels, thereby decreasing the resolution without reducing the per-pixel noise. 2) #1 causing manufacturers of cameras and developers of RAW converters to reduce noise excessively to cater to a training to look for noise at 100% or in poor downsamples; many of those noise reduction algorithms only shift the noise to lower frequencies, and they do not disappear readily when the images are downsampled (properly or not), or viewed from a distance. 3) Poor philosophy - the idea that the noise of the captured pixel directly determines the noise of the image. What they need to do is stop damaging the output with heavy-handed noise reduction. Shoot in raw mode and do the noise management yourself if it bothers you so much. I do, but considering the fact that it takes 6 seconds to write the extremely inefficient RAW files, I would like to use JPEG for quick action, but the JPEGs are painfully dummied up in the fight against fine noise. I'd rather have somewhat fewer clean pixels than lots of noisy ones. I might, too, but it would depend on the trade-off. The fact is, the quantum efficiency on the FZ50 sensor is above average (captures more photons per square mm than many other cameras at a given sensor illumination, including some big-pixel DSLRs), and read noise is better than average, too, and lower than most Nikon DSLRs at all ISOs. In fact, if Panasonic were to introduce an FZ25 combining the physical package and electronics of the FZ30 with the 5Mp sensor of the FZ20, I'd figure out a way to buy one. Printed at the same size, with proper downsampling for the printer resolution, I don't think that there would be any benefit over the FZ50. What the FZ50 upgrades could really benefit from, IMO (assuming the sensor size is kept small for lens design reasons), is some kind of optimized read noise that leans a little more towards the higher ISOs. Readout is optimal at ISO 200, and worst at 800 (worse than 1600). Supposedly, the read noise can get down to the 1 electron range with the reading of small photon counts. The way I've understood it is that CCDs can have only one gain level at the first read stage on the sensor chip, but the Nikon D40 seems to have readout optimized for higher ISOs, so perhaps it is possible. But, of course, you will never collect a large number of photons on a sensor that small at ISO 1600, so the highlights will still be as noisy, even with a hypothetical zero read noise. -- John P Sheehy |
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