TF-3 alkaline fixer, sodium sulfite solubility problem

I just mixed a TF-3 fixer. Here is the formula I used:

* Ammonium thiosulfate (57-60%) 800 ml

Sodium Sulfite (anhy) 60 g

** Sodium Metaborate 5 g (50ml of 10%sodium metaborate/L)

Distilled water to make 1000 ml

~ . ~ . ~ . ~


* To make ammonium thiosulfate: I mixed ammonium chloride 600g + sodium
thiosulphate(penta) 1406g [900g for anhy ; divide by 0.64 (900/0.64), to get
grams in penta] in 1.5 L of water. I used 800ml only per 1Liter of fixer.

** I made sodium metaborate from Borax 69g + 14.5g NaOH (tech grade,flakes)
in 1L of water, for a 10% solution of sodium metaborate (100g/L); I used 50ml
to get 5g.

There was a very thin layer of white substances/flakes floating on top of the
finished solution. Also, the sodium sulfite (photo grade, in white powder
form) was very hard to dissolve. I heated the solution to 50degC before
adding sodium metaborate, to help dissolve the sodium sulfite, but still it
doesn't dissolve completely. There is still a considerable amount of sodium
sulfite at the bottom of the solution up to now. Is this occurence normal for
TF-3 fixer?

I notice that the sodium sulfite in this formula is thrice the usual amount
per liter, which is normally 15g/L. I assume that that is the reason why the
sodium sulfite was incompletely dissolved. What else could I do to dissolve
the sodium sulfite? Or should I just let it stand in the solution? Will it
harm the fixer?

If you notice any mistakes in the formula or the method, please post the
corrections here.

Thanks again to this wonderful forum.

Footnote: I mix ammonium thiosulphate and sodium metaborate from scratch
because the chemicals are not available here in my country.
I wouldn't buy ready-made fixer now because I am at a phase where I want to
learn to mix my own chemicals.

--
Message posted via PhotoKB.com
http://www.photokb.com/Uwe/Forums.as...kroom/200610/1

In article 679699fe5b33d@uwe,
"Shakti V." u15922@uwe writes:


I just mixed a TF-3 fixer. Here is the formula I used:

* Ammonium thiosulfate (57-60%) 800 ml

Sodium Sulfite (anhy) 60 g

** Sodium Metaborate 5 g (50ml of 10%sodium metaborate/L)

Distilled water to make 1000 ml

~ . ~ . ~ . ~


* To make ammonium thiosulfate: I mixed ammonium chloride 600g + sodium
thiosulphate(penta) 1406g [900g for anhy ; divide by 0.64 (900/0.64), to get
grams in penta] in 1.5 L of water. I used 800ml only per 1Liter of fixer.

I'm no chemist, but I'd imagine that by mixing ammonium chloride and
sodium thiosulfate, you'd get something in addition to ammonium
thiosulfate -- probably sodium chloride. This could well be part or all of
the cause of the problems you relate later in your post.

Footnote: I mix ammonium thiosulphate and sodium metaborate from scratch
because the chemicals are not available here in my country.
I wouldn't buy ready-made fixer now because I am at a phase where I want to
learn to mix my own chemicals.

If you can't get ammonium thiosulfate but still want a rapid fixer, you
might want to give Agfa 304 a try:

water (125F/52C): 750ml
sodium thiosulfate: 200g
ammonium chloride: 50g
potassium metabisulfite: 20g
water to make: 1l

This is Anchell's (_Darkroom Cookbook, 2nd Edition_) formula #123. Anchell
says to fix paper for 3-5 minutes and film for 3x the clearing time. (I
don't know why these values.) The formula does what you were trying to do
-- it makes ammonium thiosulfate in solution from sodium thiosulfate and
ammonium chloride. It was presumably designed with the sodium chloride (or
whatever the reaction byproduct really is) in mind, though. I've never
used this formula; I'm just passing it on because I remember it from the
book.

In what country are you located? Perhaps you could track down other local
photographers to combine resources for obtaining necessary photochemistry.

--
Rod Smith,
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

Rod Smith wrote:

In article 679699fe5b33d@uwe,
"Shakti V." u15922@uwe writes:


I just mixed a TF-3 fixer. Here is the formula I used:

* Ammonium thiosulfate (57-60%) 800 ml

Sodium Sulfite (anhy) 60 g

** Sodium Metaborate 5 g (50ml of 10%sodium metaborate/L)

Distilled water to make 1000 ml

~ . ~ . ~ . ~


* To make ammonium thiosulfate: I mixed ammonium chloride 600g + sodium
thiosulphate(penta) 1406g [900g for anhy ; divide by 0.64 (900/0.64), to get
grams in penta] in 1.5 L of water. I used 800ml only per 1Liter of fixer.

I'm no chemist, but I'd imagine that by mixing ammonium chloride and
sodium thiosulfate, you'd get something in addition to ammonium
thiosulfate -- probably sodium chloride. This could well be part or all of
the cause of the problems you relate later in your post.

Footnote: I mix ammonium thiosulphate and sodium metaborate from scratch
because the chemicals are not available here in my country.
I wouldn't buy ready-made fixer now because I am at a phase where I want to
learn to mix my own chemicals.

If you can't get ammonium thiosulfate but still want a rapid fixer, you
might want to give Agfa 304 a try:

water (125F/52C): 750ml
sodium thiosulfate: 200g
ammonium chloride: 50g
potassium metabisulfite: 20g
water to make: 1l

This is Anchell's (_Darkroom Cookbook, 2nd Edition_) formula #123. Anchell
says to fix paper for 3-5 minutes and film for 3x the clearing time. (I
don't know why these values.)

3x the clearing time would seem way too long
and also might begin to bleach out the silver.
2x is pleanty in my experience...

The formula does what you were trying to do
-- it makes ammonium thiosulfate in solution from sodium thiosulfate and
ammonium chloride. It was presumably designed with the sodium chloride (or
whatever the reaction byproduct really is) in mind, though. I've never
used this formula; I'm just passing it on because I remember it from the
book.

In what country are you located? Perhaps you could track down other local
photographers to combine resources for obtaining necessary photochemistry.

Clearing times in 'rapid" fixers. My rule of thumb is 2x for slow speed
or conventional materials and 3x for modern emulsions like T-Max and
fast emulsions like HP-5 or Tri-X. I've not tested this in a while
since my film volume has slipped so low I now use liquid fixer, one
shot, at paper strength, for fixing film with constant agitation.
darkroommike

Tom Phillips wrote:

Rod Smith wrote:
In article 679699fe5b33d@uwe,
"Shakti V." u15922@uwe writes:

I just mixed a TF-3 fixer. Here is the formula I used:

* Ammonium thiosulfate (57-60%) 800 ml

Sodium Sulfite (anhy) 60 g

** Sodium Metaborate 5 g (50ml of 10%sodium metaborate/L)

Distilled water to make 1000 ml

~ . ~ . ~ . ~


* To make ammonium thiosulfate: I mixed ammonium chloride 600g + sodium
thiosulphate(penta) 1406g [900g for anhy ; divide by 0.64 (900/0.64), to get
grams in penta] in 1.5 L of water. I used 800ml only per 1Liter of fixer.
I'm no chemist, but I'd imagine that by mixing ammonium chloride and
sodium thiosulfate, you'd get something in addition to ammonium
thiosulfate -- probably sodium chloride. This could well be part or all of
the cause of the problems you relate later in your post.

Footnote: I mix ammonium thiosulphate and sodium metaborate from scratch
because the chemicals are not available here in my country.
I wouldn't buy ready-made fixer now because I am at a phase where I want to
learn to mix my own chemicals.
If you can't get ammonium thiosulfate but still want a rapid fixer, you
might want to give Agfa 304 a try:

water (125F/52C): 750ml
sodium thiosulfate: 200g
ammonium chloride: 50g
potassium metabisulfite: 20g
water to make: 1l

This is Anchell's (_Darkroom Cookbook, 2nd Edition_) formula #123. Anchell
says to fix paper for 3-5 minutes and film for 3x the clearing time. (I
don't know why these values.)

3x the clearing time would seem way too long
and also might begin to bleach out the silver.
2x is pleanty in my experience...

The formula does what you were trying to do
-- it makes ammonium thiosulfate in solution from sodium thiosulfate and
ammonium chloride. It was presumably designed with the sodium chloride (or
whatever the reaction byproduct really is) in mind, though. I've never
used this formula; I'm just passing it on because I remember it from the
book.

In what country are you located? Perhaps you could track down other local
photographers to combine resources for obtaining necessary photochemistry.

All of the TF- formulas, including the proprietary formula for TF-4,
have solubility and precipitation problems, so mixing can be difficult.
Nonetheless, the chemicals should go back into solution and the
formulas will work.

--Jon Mided

Digitaltruth Photo
http://www.digitaltruth.com

For Tmax one should fix until there is no
dye left (i.e., until fb+f areas show no
purple tint and are clear.) Whether it's
2x or 3x I don't know but this indicates
complete fixing, at least for Tmax films.

darkroommike wrote:

Clearing times in 'rapid" fixers. My rule of thumb is 2x for slow speed
or conventional materials and 3x for modern emulsions like T-Max and
fast emulsions like HP-5 or Tri-X. I've not tested this in a while
since my film volume has slipped so low I now use liquid fixer, one
shot, at paper strength, for fixing film with constant agitation.
darkroommike

Tom Phillips wrote:

Rod Smith wrote:
In article 679699fe5b33d@uwe,
"Shakti V." u15922@uwe writes:

I just mixed a TF-3 fixer. Here is the formula I used:

* Ammonium thiosulfate (57-60%) 800 ml

Sodium Sulfite (anhy) 60 g

** Sodium Metaborate 5 g (50ml of 10%sodium metaborate/L)

Distilled water to make 1000 ml

~ . ~ . ~ . ~


* To make ammonium thiosulfate: I mixed ammonium chloride 600g + sodium
thiosulphate(penta) 1406g [900g for anhy ; divide by 0.64 (900/0.64), to get
grams in penta] in 1.5 L of water. I used 800ml only per 1Liter of fixer.
I'm no chemist, but I'd imagine that by mixing ammonium chloride and
sodium thiosulfate, you'd get something in addition to ammonium
thiosulfate -- probably sodium chloride. This could well be part or all of
the cause of the problems you relate later in your post.

Footnote: I mix ammonium thiosulphate and sodium metaborate from scratch
because the chemicals are not available here in my country.
I wouldn't buy ready-made fixer now because I am at a phase where I want to
learn to mix my own chemicals.
If you can't get ammonium thiosulfate but still want a rapid fixer, you
might want to give Agfa 304 a try:

water (125F/52C): 750ml
sodium thiosulfate: 200g
ammonium chloride: 50g
potassium metabisulfite: 20g
water to make: 1l

This is Anchell's (_Darkroom Cookbook, 2nd Edition_) formula #123. Anchell
says to fix paper for 3-5 minutes and film for 3x the clearing time. (I
don't know why these values.)

3x the clearing time would seem way too long
and also might begin to bleach out the silver.
2x is pleanty in my experience...

The formula does what you were trying to do
-- it makes ammonium thiosulfate in solution from sodium thiosulfate and
ammonium chloride. It was presumably designed with the sodium chloride (or
whatever the reaction byproduct really is) in mind, though. I've never
used this formula; I'm just passing it on because I remember it from the
book.

In what country are you located? Perhaps you could track down other local
photographers to combine resources for obtaining necessary photochemistry.

Tom Phillips a écrit :

For Tmax one should fix until there is no
dye left (i.e., until fb+f areas show no
purple tint and are clear.) Whether it's
2x or 3x I don't know but this indicates
complete fixing, at least for Tmax films.

I too fix more T-grain films than "normal" ones but I don't think you
need to overfix just to remove the purple tint.
If you use a washaid, I just use plain sodium sulfite @ 20gr/l, before
the final wash, the tint is removed very easily.

Claudio Bonavolta
http://www.bonavolta.ch

"Claudio Bonavolta" wrote
If you use a washaid, I just use plain sodium sulfite
@ 20gr/l, before the final wash, the tint is removed
very easily.

"Tmax Pink" washes out much faster if the wash-aid
and wash water are ~75F. TMax films are [or so I
think I remember hearing] less sensitive to higher
temperatures.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation
http://www.nolindan.com/da/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com

Claudio Bonavolta wrote:

Tom Phillips a écrit :

For Tmax one should fix until there is no
dye left (i.e., until fb+f areas show no
purple tint and are clear.) Whether it's
2x or 3x I don't know but this indicates
complete fixing, at least for Tmax films.

I too fix more T-grain films than "normal" ones but I don't think you
need to overfix just to remove the purple tint.
If you use a washaid, I just use plain sodium sulfite @ 20gr/l, before
the final wash, the tint is removed very easily.

Not talking about over fixing (hard to do anyway...)
The purple is a sensitizing dye that can also
bind to silver halides and silver thiosulfate
residues in the emulsion. If the purple/magenta
color is very light it will wash out in Hypo
Clear. If it's darker and more pronounced your
film isn't being fixed long enough. I typically
fix Tmax for 6 minutes in fresh fix and in my
experience this isn't too long a fixing time for
Tmax films. The stain is usually gone after 5-6
minutes in fresh fix. As the fixer gets saturated
my fixing times can go to 7-8 minutes before
discarding. Meaning if the purple isn't gone in
about 7/7.5 minutes I discard the fixer.


Kodak pub. F-4016 also states:

Your fixer will be exhausted more rapidly with these films
than with other films. If your negatives show a magenta
(pink) stain after fixing, your fixer may be near exhaustion,
or you may not have used a long enough time. If the stain is
slight, it will not affect image stability, negative contrast, or
printing times. You can remove a slight pink stain with
KODAK Hypo Clearing Agent. However, if the stain is
pronounced and irregular over the film surface, refix the film
in fresh fixer.

Tom Phillips wrote:h

Kodak pub. F-4016 also states:

Your fixer will be exhausted more rapidly with these films
than with other films.


Rapid fixers are no longer "rapid" and capacity is much
reduced due to the iodide. The ammonium ion has little affinity
for silver in the presence of iodide. In effect the fixer becomes
a sodium thiosulfate fixer. The thiosulfate ion does have the
necessary affinity for silver in the presence of iodide to do
the job.
Ammonium and sodium silver thiosulfate complexes are
soluble. Impurities in the water which form insoluble compounds
with the thiosulfate complex may be another source of the pink.
Such compounds can precipitate in the emulsion along with
the dye. Test using only distilled water start to finish. Dan