FZ30 battery

J. Clarke wrote:
Paul Allen "paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net" wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:
Paul Allen "paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net" wrote:

SMS wrote:
Paul Allen wrote:

snip

It's too
bad NiMH cells can't match the size, weight, and power
density characteristics of Li-ion cells, because NiMH's have
a lot of other advantages.
What might those be? The size, weight, and power density advantages of
Li-Ion are just three of the many advantages.


The major advantages of Li-Ion a

1. Much lower self-discharge rate (except for Sanyo Eneloop NiMH
batteries)

2. Higher maximum number of charge/discharge cycles

3. Higher energy density in terms of both weight and volume

4. Far, far better low-temperature performance

5. Lower cost, when you factor in the higher energy density, and the
maximum number of charge/discharge cycles

6. Protection circuitry integral to the battery pack, rather than
integral to the camera

7. Accurate charge level indicator due to linear voltage decline
proportional to charge level

8. Lower maintenance.

9. Much better selection of higher-end cameras use Li-Ion batteries.

10. No problems with battery doors that are part of the charging
circuit (battery doors are the most often replaced part of digital
cameras).



NiMH rechargeable batteries have the following advantages over Li-Ion
rechargeable batteries:

1. Faster charging with high rate chargers

2. Ability to use disposable AA batteries if NiMH AA batteries are
discharged and no charger is available

3. Longer shelf life
Sounds like biased li-ion evangelism to me. Suit yourself.
I don't see any "evangelism".
Excuse me? I should prefer proprietary batteries because the selection
of high-end cameras using them is wider, or because of battery doors?

Do you deny that either of these is a true statement?

I'm not going to play word games with you. The first is irrelevant.
The fact that many high-end cameras will stick my with proprietary
batteries does not magically translate into an advantage for proprietary
batteries. The second is silly. Bad battery door design on some
particular camers does not translate into a disadvantage for AA's.

Li-ion batteries have lower maintenance, how???

Whether NiMH batteries benefit from the occasional deep discharge like NiCD
do is debateable. But if they do then then need it.

Like you say, it's debatable. In my experience, NiMH cells do fine with
just normal use in a camera. Li-ion batteries don't have particularly
less maintenance than NiMH batteries.

Li-ion batteries are
really less expensive if you factor in things that don't matter?

How does life-cycle cost not matter? If a lithium ion battery costs twice
as much but is good for three times as many cycles then it's cheaper in the
long run.

Who said life-cycle cost doesn't matter? Most of us aren't going to
go through batteries so fast that we'll bump up against cycle limits.
Li-ion batteries die no matter how much they're used three years (or
so) after manufacture. A guy like me that goes through a set of
batteries about once a week and has three sets will put 200 cycles on
each set in twelve years. I'd expect to be buying new batteries a
bit more frequently than that, but not more frequently than I'd have
to replace li-ion batteries. Outside of extreme use-cases, li-ion
batteries generally cost more over the life of a camera than NiMH.

Li-ion battery technology certainly has some advantages. Some people
over-state the case in their zeal to make a conversion.

"Conversion" is not possible. If you think that someone is trying to
"convert" you then you need to put a few more layers on your tinfoil hat.

Ummm, whatever.

What do you perceive to the the advantages of
NiMH?
The ones that weren't listed, and that matter most to me: They're
less expensive and come in one standard size.

Less expensive is debatable unless you consider only purchase price and not
life-cycle cost.

Well, no, it's only debatable under extremely heavy use conditions.
For most of us, the cheapest of the cheap "probably won't explode
before we cash your check" li-ion batteries are more expensive
to use in a camera than a set of NiMH's.

The standard size was mentioned.

Half a point. The convenience of picking up spares at Wal-Mart
was mentioned. The standard size was not.

Until the camera
makers get together on one or two standard li-ion battery sizes,
I'll prefer AA batteries. (And my next camera will most likely
use a proprietary battery, because battery type is not the
most important factor in choosing a camera.)\

Precisely. You don't give a damn what kind of battery is in it if the other
features are right.

Not what I said. All things being equal, I'd always choose a camera
that took convenient AA batteries. All things aren't equal, so I'll
likely be stuck with a proprietary battery.

Paul Allen

SMS wrote:
Paul Allen wrote:

The ones that weren't listed, and that matter most to me: They're
less expensive and come in one standard size. Until the camera
makers get together on one or two standard li-ion battery sizes,
I'll prefer AA batteries.

Actually, while it certainly isn't down to one or two, there are many
cameras, from different manufacturers, that do use the same Li-Ion
battery pack. And of course many manufacturers use the same battery in
many different models.

You're reaching. I'm not going to go out and buy multiple cameras just
so I can have several devices that use the same proprietary battery.

As far as cost goes, if you look at the cost of an after-market Li-Ion
pack, from a reputable company, the cost is very comparable to that of
NiMH AA cells.

You're still reaching. I'll give you that in the best possible case
with a well-selected battery, the price of li-ion can come close to
NiMH. Will you give me that li-ion batteries are more like 2-3 times
as expensive in the typical case?

I.e. at $10 for four Sanyo 2500 mAH NiMH cells, and $11.50 for a Canon
BP511 (after-market), the cost per cycle for 300 cycles over three
years, is 5/10 of a cent different.

But that battery isn't compatible with the FZ-30 I'm pining for.
Somebody found a CGR-S006A (of unknown provenance or quality) for
that camera on E-Bay for $20. Assuming that I risk the $20 no-
name battery, it costs me twice as much for the hypothetical 300
cycles. And that doesn't even take into account that the CGR-S006A
has less than half the capacity of the set of NiMH's.

If you do the maximum rated cycles
(500 for NiMH, 1000 for Li-Ion) then the Li-Ion is much cheaper (with
the low self-discharge rate of Li-Ion, you're unlikely to reach 1000
cycles before the battery reaches its end-of-life based on time (3 years).

Yup. You can construct a worst-case scenario in which it costs less
to use Li-ion. Li-ion batteries have other advantages, but cost is
not one of them for most of us.

If you compare using battery packs from the manufacturer, rather than
after-market, then the Li-Ion batteries do cost a lot more.

Yup. When I was looking up the exploding li-ion battery issue a
couple days ago, I found several apparent experts recommending
against after-market batteries. The reasoning was that it doesn't
make sense to save $40 on a cheap battery that might have an
"accident" and destroy a $1000 camera. Hmmm...

Paul Allen

Paul Allen wrote:

You're still reaching. I'll give you that in the best possible case
with a well-selected battery, the price of li-ion can come close to
NiMH. Will you give me that li-ion batteries are more like 2-3 times
as expensive in the typical case?

On the web site I looked at nine different after-market lithium-ion
battery packs. Every one is available for less than 2x the cost of 4
NiMH AA cells. So no, not in the typical case.

What I do say on the web site, and will concede, is that it's necessary
to purchase Li-Ion packs from an on-line retailer, or from a store like
Ritz or Wolf, in order to get them at a reasonable price.

But that battery isn't compatible with the FZ-30 I'm pining for.
Somebody found a CGR-S006A (of unknown provenance or quality) for
that camera on E-Bay for $20.

I'd get the Lenmar DLP006
("http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CP4ML6/ref=sr_11_1/103-9076213-8557463?%5Fencoding=UTF8")
for $16. Lenmar and Amazon are quite reputable, and you have recourse if
there is a problem. But I wouldn't purchase the FZ-30 due to the noise
issues. It's a prime example of a company getting all the features of a
camera right, but basing it around a sensor that doesn't give optimal
results.

Yup. When I was looking up the exploding li-ion battery issue a
couple days ago, I found several apparent experts recommending
against after-market batteries. The reasoning was that it doesn't
make sense to save $40 on a cheap battery that might have an
"accident" and destroy a $1000 camera. Hmmm...

Except that using the manufacturer's battery is no guarantee against an
exploding battery, as evidenced by various recalls of batteries from
companies like Nikon, Apple, Dell, HP etc. In reality, a battery is
going to have problems when charging, not discharging, so it's not going
to damage a camera.

Amusingly, the only battery problem I've had, is with Panasonic, and it
was NiMH, not Li-Ion. There was one bad NiMH cell that I was charging,
and the charger over-heated and melted. The charger was later recalled.
"http://www.costco.com/Images/Content/Misc/PDF/PanasonicRecall.pdf" Too
bad, as this charger was great in terms of the specifications, you could
run it off AC, 12VDC, or a USB port, it had an LCD display that
indicated charge level, it charged each cell individually, and it was
sold at a good price bundled with Panasonic batteries. Another Panasonic
product that got the features right, but that failed on the execution.

Steve
"http://batterydata.com"

SMS wrote:
Paul Allen wrote:

You're still reaching. I'll give you that in the best possible case
with a well-selected battery, the price of li-ion can come close to
NiMH. Will you give me that li-ion batteries are more like 2-3 times
as expensive in the typical case?

On the web site I looked at nine different after-market lithium-ion
battery packs. Every one is available for less than 2x the cost of 4
NiMH AA cells. So no, not in the typical case.

Whatever. So, for the nine you picked, all were more expensive than
NiMH . And, keeping things in perspective, the difference is a small
fraction of the camera price.

What I do say on the web site, and will concede, is that it's necessary
to purchase Li-Ion packs from an on-line retailer, or from a store like
Ritz or Wolf, in order to get them at a reasonable price.

But that battery isn't compatible with the FZ-30 I'm pining for.
Somebody found a CGR-S006A (of unknown provenance or quality) for
that camera on E-Bay for $20.

I'd get the Lenmar DLP006
("http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CP4ML6/ref=sr_11_1/103-9076213-8557463?%5Fencoding=UTF8")
for $16. Lenmar and Amazon are quite reputable, and you have recourse if
there is a problem. But I wouldn't purchase the FZ-30 due to the noise
issues. It's a prime example of a company getting all the features of a
camera right, but basing it around a sensor that doesn't give optimal
results.

Thanks for the pointer to the Lenmar battery. I only found no-name
stuff when I googled for CGR-S006A. But again with the noise on the
FZ30. Dpreview comments about noise on many of Panasonic's recent
cameras, and yet everybody picks on the FZ30. Interesting.

Yup. When I was looking up the exploding li-ion battery issue a
couple days ago, I found several apparent experts recommending
against after-market batteries. The reasoning was that it doesn't
make sense to save $40 on a cheap battery that might have an
"accident" and destroy a $1000 camera. Hmmm...

Except that using the manufacturer's battery is no guarantee against an
exploding battery, as evidenced by various recalls of batteries from
companies like Nikon, Apple, Dell, HP etc.

You're making this bitter pill even harder to swallow, Steve!
Now I can't even trust the high-priced batteries? :-)

In reality, a battery is
going to have problems when charging, not discharging, so it's not going
to damage a camera.

Well, maybe. The original problem that forced the addition of
protection circuits was with batteries installed in products. If
the protection circuit is not up to snuff, li-ion batteries can
go into thermal runaway when they're just sitting there if they
get too hot. I don't expect that to happen with current batteries,
but I'm not going to go buy the cheapest battery I can find, either.

Amusingly, the only battery problem I've had, is with Panasonic, and it
was NiMH, not Li-Ion. There was one bad NiMH cell that I was charging,
and the charger over-heated and melted. The charger was later recalled.
"http://www.costco.com/Images/Content/Misc/PDF/PanasonicRecall.pdf" Too
bad, as this charger was great in terms of the specifications, you could
run it off AC, 12VDC, or a USB port, it had an LCD display that
indicated charge level, it charged each cell individually, and it was
sold at a good price bundled with Panasonic batteries. Another Panasonic
product that got the features right, but that failed on the execution.

Yup, amusing.

Paul Allen

Paul Allen" "paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net wrote:
[]
But again with the noise on the
FZ30. Dpreview comments about noise on many of Panasonic's recent
cameras, and yet everybody picks on the FZ30. Interesting.

Fully noise-free images are in fashion right now - whereas a little grain
can add character to an image. Perhaps the FZ30 is a little worse than
some others, though.

There are times (with the FZ5) when I would like more sensitivity, and
very occasionally a little less noise, but I would not be prepared to
carry the weight and bulk of the DSLR required to achieve this. Others
may make a different choice.

David

Paul Allen wrote:

Thanks for the pointer to the Lenmar battery. I only found no-name
stuff when I googled for CGR-S006A. But again with the noise on the
FZ30. Dpreview comments about noise on many of Panasonic's recent
cameras, and yet everybody picks on the FZ30. Interesting.

I think that this is because on paper the FZ30 is an awesome camera.
It's held to a higher standard than the lower-end point and shoot cameras.

David J Taylor wrote:

Paul Allen" "paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net wrote:
[]
But again with the noise on the
FZ30. Dpreview comments about noise on many of Panasonic's recent
cameras, and yet everybody picks on the FZ30. Interesting.

Fully noise-free images are in fashion right now - whereas a little grain
can add character to an image. Perhaps the FZ30 is a little worse than
some others, though.

There are times (with the FZ5) when I would like more sensitivity, and
very occasionally a little less noise, but I would not be prepared to
carry the weight and bulk of the DSLR required to achieve this. Others
may make a different choice.

Really depends on the circumstance. If I was going out deliberately to
shoot a specific subject in a specific location then I'd carry whatever is
needed to get the shot. But if I'm just out taking a walk around the
neighborhood or going on a day hike or going to the beach or whatever then
I'm not so concerned about getting the perfect photo as I am about shooting
targets of opportunity with as little impact on my primary activity as
possible--that means something small and light. The FZ7 is a good
compromise for that sort of thing.

This is what many of the participants in this discussion forget--for some of
us photography isn't something we do 9-5 to put food on the table.

David

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

David J Taylor wrote:
Paul Allen" "paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net wrote:
[]
But again with the noise on the
FZ30. Dpreview comments about noise on many of Panasonic's recent
cameras, and yet everybody picks on the FZ30. Interesting.

Fully noise-free images are in fashion right now - whereas a little grain
can add character to an image. Perhaps the FZ30 is a little worse than
some others, though.

I think that's about right. It's a little worse than some. Judging
from sample pics, it's not quite as noisy at ISO 400 as my old Olympus
C700. The C700 can't take pictures of the night sky, but the FZ30
has a "starry sky" mode. I wonder if anybody's tried that out.

There are times (with the FZ5) when I would like more sensitivity, and
very occasionally a little less noise, but I would not be prepared to
carry the weight and bulk of the DSLR required to achieve this. Others
may make a different choice.

I'm with you. I'd be willing to carry an FZ30, since it's just a
couple ounces lighter than my old Oly OM-2n with its 50mm lens.
It is just a smidgen bulkier, though. The C700 is about the size
of your FZ5 and is real easy to carry around.

I was at Fry's the other day checking out what they had. They had
the whole range, from little things not much bulkier than a credit
card all the way up to a KM Maxxum 7D. The 7D is about the size of
a football, feels like it weighs five pounds, and is plain encrusted
with buttons, knobs, and controls of all sorts. I understand the
5D is not quite so large, but they didn't have one on display. I'm
pretty sure I wouldn't want to lug the 7D around all day.

Choices. If we didn't have so many choices! :-)

Paul Allen

Paul Allen" "paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net wrote:
[]
Choices. If we didn't have so many choices! :-)

.... where would we be without them G

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

David

Paul Allen "paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net" wrote:

David J Taylor wrote:
Paul Allen" "paul dot l dot allen at comcast dot net wrote:
[]
But again with the noise on the
FZ30. Dpreview comments about noise on many of Panasonic's recent
cameras, and yet everybody picks on the FZ30. Interesting.

Fully noise-free images are in fashion right now - whereas a little grain
can add character to an image. Perhaps the FZ30 is a little worse than
some others, though.

I think that's about right. It's a little worse than some. Judging
from sample pics, it's not quite as noisy at ISO 400 as my old Olympus
C700. The C700 can't take pictures of the night sky, but the FZ30
has a "starry sky" mode. I wonder if anybody's tried that out.

Dunno about the FZ30 but it works pretty well on the FZ7. On full zoom it
even shows star trails.

There are times (with the FZ5) when I would like more sensitivity, and
very occasionally a little less noise, but I would not be prepared to
carry the weight and bulk of the DSLR required to achieve this. Others
may make a different choice.

I'm with you. I'd be willing to carry an FZ30, since it's just a
couple ounces lighter than my old Oly OM-2n with its 50mm lens.
It is just a smidgen bulkier, though. The C700 is about the size
of your FZ5 and is real easy to carry around.

I was at Fry's the other day checking out what they had. They had
the whole range, from little things not much bulkier than a credit
card all the way up to a KM Maxxum 7D. The 7D is about the size of
a football, feels like it weighs five pounds, and is plain encrusted
with buttons, knobs, and controls of all sorts. I understand the
5D is not quite so large, but they didn't have one on display. I'm
pretty sure I wouldn't want to lug the 7D around all day.

Choices. If we didn't have so many choices! :-)

Paul Allen

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)