Substitute for Kodalk?

Yes I'm back again for some suggestions...
I'm trying to do some Xtol type recipe too, I spend most of my freetime for
photography...

I have caught some formulas on the web for a Xtol type recipe but there is
written some Kodalk or Balanced Alkali.
CAn I substitute with another alkaline agent as Borax or Sodium CArbonate or a
mix of them?

Some suggestions please!!




Ciao,
Stefano Bramato

--
ed io imparo...

Stefano Bramato wrote:
Yes I'm back again for some suggestions...
I'm trying to do some Xtol type recipe too, I spend most of my freetime for
photography...

I have caught some formulas on the web for a Xtol type recipe but there is
written some Kodalk or Balanced Alkali.
CAn I substitute with another alkaline agent as Borax or Sodium CArbonate or a
mix of them?

Some suggestions please!!




Ciao,
Stefano Bramato

--
ed io imparo...

In order to make 1.0g sodium metaborate tetrahydrate, mix 0.692g borax
and 0.145g sodium hydroxide. When dissolved in water, these two make
solutions of identical composition. From Ryuji
Suzuki.......http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/ch...misnomers.html

Glenn Booth

Stefano Bramato wrote:
Yes I'm back again for some suggestions...
I'm trying to do some Xtol type recipe too, I spend most of my freetime for
photography...

I have caught some formulas on the web for a Xtol type recipe but there is
written some Kodalk or Balanced Alkali.
CAn I substitute with another alkaline agent as Borax or Sodium CArbonate or a
mix of them?

Some suggestions please!!




Ciao,
Stefano Bramato

--
ed io imparo...

In order to make 1.0g sodium metaborate tetrahydrate, mix 0.692g borax
and 0.145g sodium hydroxide. When dissolved in water, these two make
solutions of identical composition. From Ryuji
Suzuki.......http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/ch...misnomers.html

Glenn Booth

In article ,
Stefano Bramato writes:

Yes I'm back again for some suggestions...
I'm trying to do some Xtol type recipe too, I spend most of my freetime for
photography...

I have caught some formulas on the web for a Xtol type recipe but there is
written some Kodalk or Balanced Alkali.
CAn I substitute with another alkaline agent as Borax or Sodium CArbonate or a
mix of them?

I can't answer that specific question, but I can provide pointers to some
XTOL-like (that is, ascorbic acid-based) developers, none of which specify
Kodalk:

http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/fi...recommend.html
http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/VitC/vitc.html
http://www.jackspcs.com/mytol.htm
http://www.udmercy.edu/crna/agm/phenvitc.htm

I've also run across a Rodinal-type ascorbic acid developer:

http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Rodinal/rodinal.html

(That one's in a sidebar entitled "Patrick Gainer Rodinal/Ascorbic Acid
Formula.")

I've not yet used any of these, though; I'm just starting to gather
information with the goal of eventually mixing my own developers.

--
Rod Smith,
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 16:04:23 GMT, ieverettmemun
wrote:

Stefano Bramato wrote:
Yes I'm back again for some suggestions...
I'm trying to do some Xtol type recipe too, I spend most of my freetime for
photography...

I have caught some formulas on the web for a Xtol type recipe but there is
written some Kodalk or Balanced Alkali.
CAn I substitute with another alkaline agent as Borax or Sodium CArbonate or a
mix of them?

Some suggestions please!!




Ciao,
Stefano Bramato

--
ed io imparo...

In order to make 1.0g sodium metaborate tetrahydrate, mix 0.692g borax
and 0.145g sodium hydroxide. When dissolved in water, these two make
solutions of identical composition. From Ryuji
Suzuki.......http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/ch...misnomers.html

Glenn Booth

apr2705 from Lloyd Erlick,

I've been saving references about the various mixtures of borax and
sodium hydroxide that supposedly react to form sodium metaborate
(Kodalk). Here are the ones I've got so far, to add to the one above.
They don't seem to be the same to me, but I have no real expertise, so
if someone could clarify I'd sure appreciate it.



attributed to Michael Gudzinowicz via APUG:
100g sodium metaborate (Kodalk) == 45.45g borax + 9.53g NaOH


100 g Kodalk (sodium metaborate octahydrate) == 40.5 g borax + 9.53 g
NaOH.


attributed to Maxim M. Muir: To make 1 liter,
165gr borax, and 35gr sodium hydroxide. That is for 1 liter 20%
metaborate.

Ryuji Suzuki's page called chemistry-misnomers.html describes the
confusion over the nomenclature for sodium metaborate, and states that
the term octahydrate is incorrect and stems from nomenclature of an
earlier period.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:15:12 -0400, Lloyd Erlick Lloyd at @the-wire.
dot com wrote:

....
Ciao,
Stefano Bramato

--
ed io imparo...

In order to make 1.0g sodium metaborate tetrahydrate, mix 0.692g borax
and 0.145g sodium hydroxide. When dissolved in water, these two make
solutions of identical composition. From Ryuji
Suzuki.......http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/ch...misnomers.html

Glenn Booth

apr2705 from Lloyd Erlick,

I've been saving references about the various mixtures of borax and
sodium hydroxide that supposedly react to form sodium metaborate
(Kodalk). Here are the ones I've got so far, to add to the one above.
They don't seem to be the same to me, but I have no real expertise, so
if someone could clarify I'd sure appreciate it.



attributed to Michael Gudzinowicz via APUG:
100g sodium metaborate (Kodalk) == 45.45g borax + 9.53g NaOH


100 g Kodalk (sodium metaborate octahydrate) == 40.5 g borax + 9.53 g
NaOH.


attributed to Maxim M. Muir: To make 1 liter,
165gr borax, and 35gr sodium hydroxide. That is for 1 liter 20%
metaborate.

Ryuji Suzuki's page called chemistry-misnomers.html describes the
confusion over the nomenclature for sodium metaborate, and states that
the term octahydrate is incorrect and stems from nomenclature of an
earlier period.


apr2705 from Lloyd Erlick,

-Plus the following:



From: Roman Kielich®
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:16:44 +1100

it is school chemistry, not patent.

1 mole of borax plus two moles of sodium hydroxide gives 4 moles of
Kodalk and one mole of water.
1 mole of borax decahydrated is 381.37 g
1 mole of NaOH is 40
4 moles of Kodalk is 4 times 65.82 (anhydrous)

Na2B4O7+2 NaOH - 4 NaBO2 + H20




-also:
attributed to Michael Gudzinowicz--
to make a quantity equivalent to 100 g sodium metaborate octahydrate:

100 g sodium metaborate tetrahydrate == 90.89 g borax + 9.53 g NaOH


Molecular weights:

Borax (sodium tetraborate decahydrate) 381.42
Sodium metaborate octahydrate 209.82
Sodium hydroxide 40.01

Since two mols of NaOH are required per tetraborate:

381.42 g borax + 80.02 g NaOH == 419.64 g metaborate octahydrate
(all in solution).



I think typos have crept in! If someone could post a correct version
....

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email:
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________
--

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:38:21 -0400, Lloyd Erlick Lloyd at @the-wire.
dot com wrote:

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:15:12 -0400, Lloyd Erlick Lloyd at @the-wire.
dot com wrote:

...
Ciao,
Stefano Bramato

--
ed io imparo...

In order to make 1.0g sodium metaborate tetrahydrate, mix 0.692g borax
and 0.145g sodium hydroxide. When dissolved in water, these two make
solutions of identical composition. From Ryuji
Suzuki.......http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/ch...misnomers.html

Glenn Booth

apr2705 from Lloyd Erlick,

I've been saving references about the various mixtures of borax and
sodium hydroxide that supposedly react to form sodium metaborate
(Kodalk). Here are the ones I've got so far, to add to the one above.
They don't seem to be the same to me, but I have no real expertise, so
if someone could clarify I'd sure appreciate it.



attributed to Michael Gudzinowicz via APUG:
100g sodium metaborate (Kodalk) == 45.45g borax + 9.53g NaOH


100 g Kodalk (sodium metaborate octahydrate) == 40.5 g borax + 9.53 g
NaOH.


attributed to Maxim M. Muir: To make 1 liter,
165gr borax, and 35gr sodium hydroxide. That is for 1 liter 20%
metaborate.

Ryuji Suzuki's page called chemistry-misnomers.html describes the
confusion over the nomenclature for sodium metaborate, and states that
the term octahydrate is incorrect and stems from nomenclature of an
earlier period.


apr2705 from Lloyd Erlick,

-Plus the following:



From: Roman Kielich®
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:16:44 +1100

it is school chemistry, not patent.

1 mole of borax plus two moles of sodium hydroxide gives 4 moles of
Kodalk and one mole of water.
1 mole of borax decahydrated is 381.37 g
1 mole of NaOH is 40
4 moles of Kodalk is 4 times 65.82 (anhydrous)

Na2B4O7+2 NaOH - 4 NaBO2 + H20




-also:
attributed to Michael Gudzinowicz--
to make a quantity equivalent to 100 g sodium metaborate octahydrate:

100 g sodium metaborate tetrahydrate == 90.89 g borax + 9.53 g NaOH


Molecular weights:

Borax (sodium tetraborate decahydrate) 381.42
Sodium metaborate octahydrate 209.82
Sodium hydroxide 40.01

Since two mols of NaOH are required per tetraborate:

381.42 g borax + 80.02 g NaOH == 419.64 g metaborate octahydrate
(all in solution).



I think typos have crept in! If someone could post a correct version
...

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email:
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________


apr2705 from Lloyd Erlick,

I found a comment by Patrick Gainer:


By gainer - 03:41 PM, 10-08-2004

The confusion over 4 mol and 8 mol need not be. The number of atoms of
boron, hydrogen, oxygen and sodium is the same in any given weight of
either one. If you want the equivalent of 100 grams of the Kodalk that
Hutchings has in PMK, use 69 grams of 20 Mule Team borax with 14.5
grams of Red Devil lye.

Sodium metaborate 8 mol has exactly twice the molecular weight of
sodium metaborate 4 mol, according to the manufacturer.


By gainer - 09:16 PM, 10-10-2004

I should have mentioned the place to verify this info iw
www.borax.com, by the 20 Mule Team people.

With organic chemistry you can never be sure abour ionic reactions and
combinations. With inorganic chemistry, you can be fairly sure that if
there are the same number of atoms of each element in solution, it
won't make any difference how they got there.
---------------


regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email:
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________
--

I have a book published by Kodak titled: KODAK HANDBOOK FOR THE
PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHER (VOLUME 4), inside the book is a formulary of
Kodak B&W chemicals, the formula for the 10 grams of Sodium Metaborate
needed for the DK-50 formula using Borax-Decahydrate and Sodium Hydroxide is
as follows:
Sodium Hydroxide (Caustic soda), dissolve separately in 100 ml of cold
water, 1.5 grams of the caustic soda adding it very slowly, stirring
constantly. NEVER add the water to the caustic soda. The amount of
Borax-Decahydrate that is needed is 7 grams, this book dates back to the
1970s when Sodium Metaborate was not so readily available as it is today in
the UK.
Don't you think that it would be better to buy the Sodium Metaborate in the
first place ?


"Lloyd Erlick" Lloyd at @the-wire. dot com wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:38:21 -0400, Lloyd Erlick Lloyd at @the-wire.
dot com wrote:

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:15:12 -0400, Lloyd Erlick Lloyd at @the-wire.
dot com wrote:

...
Ciao,
Stefano Bramato

--
ed io imparo...

In order to make 1.0g sodium metaborate tetrahydrate, mix 0.692g borax
and 0.145g sodium hydroxide. When dissolved in water, these two make
solutions of identical composition. From Ryuji
Suzuki.......http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/ch...misnomers.html

Glenn Booth

apr2705 from Lloyd Erlick,

I've been saving references about the various mixtures of borax and
sodium hydroxide that supposedly react to form sodium metaborate
(Kodalk). Here are the ones I've got so far, to add to the one above.
They don't seem to be the same to me, but I have no real expertise, so
if someone could clarify I'd sure appreciate it.



attributed to Michael Gudzinowicz via APUG:
100g sodium metaborate (Kodalk) == 45.45g borax + 9.53g NaOH


100 g Kodalk (sodium metaborate octahydrate) == 40.5 g borax + 9.53 g
NaOH.


attributed to Maxim M. Muir: To make 1 liter,
165gr borax, and 35gr sodium hydroxide. That is for 1 liter 20%
metaborate.

Ryuji Suzuki's page called chemistry-misnomers.html describes the
confusion over the nomenclature for sodium metaborate, and states that
the term octahydrate is incorrect and stems from nomenclature of an
earlier period.


apr2705 from Lloyd Erlick,

-Plus the following:



From: Roman Kielich®
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:16:44 +1100

it is school chemistry, not patent.

1 mole of borax plus two moles of sodium hydroxide gives 4 moles of
Kodalk and one mole of water.
1 mole of borax decahydrated is 381.37 g
1 mole of NaOH is 40
4 moles of Kodalk is 4 times 65.82 (anhydrous)

Na2B4O7+2 NaOH - 4 NaBO2 + H20




-also:
attributed to Michael Gudzinowicz--
to make a quantity equivalent to 100 g sodium metaborate octahydrate:

100 g sodium metaborate tetrahydrate == 90.89 g borax + 9.53 g NaOH


Molecular weights:

Borax (sodium tetraborate decahydrate) 381.42
Sodium metaborate octahydrate 209.82
Sodium hydroxide 40.01

Since two mols of NaOH are required per tetraborate:

381.42 g borax + 80.02 g NaOH == 419.64 g metaborate octahydrate
(all in solution).



I think typos have crept in! If someone could post a correct version
...

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email:
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________


apr2705 from Lloyd Erlick,

I found a comment by Patrick Gainer:


By gainer - 03:41 PM, 10-08-2004

The confusion over 4 mol and 8 mol need not be. The number of atoms of
boron, hydrogen, oxygen and sodium is the same in any given weight of
either one. If you want the equivalent of 100 grams of the Kodalk that
Hutchings has in PMK, use 69 grams of 20 Mule Team borax with 14.5
grams of Red Devil lye.

Sodium metaborate 8 mol has exactly twice the molecular weight of
sodium metaborate 4 mol, according to the manufacturer.


By gainer - 09:16 PM, 10-10-2004

I should have mentioned the place to verify this info iw
www.borax.com, by the 20 Mule Team people.

With organic chemistry you can never be sure abour ionic reactions and
combinations. With inorganic chemistry, you can be fairly sure that if
there are the same number of atoms of each element in solution, it
won't make any difference how they got there.
---------------


regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email:
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________
--

You can substitute either borax or carbonate for the metaborate. Borax
will give longer development times since it is a weaker activating
agent. Carbonate will give shorter developing times because it is a
more active agent. But if you don't mind experimenting with the times
to find the right time for normal development, neither substitute is
likely to make much difference in the final image. Both will work.

Stefano Bramato wrote:

Yes I'm back again for some suggestions...
I'm trying to do some Xtol type recipe too, I spend most of my freetime for
photography...

I have caught some formulas on the web for a Xtol type recipe but there is
written some Kodalk or Balanced Alkali.
CAn I substitute with another alkaline agent as Borax or Sodium CArbonate or a
mix of them?

Some suggestions please!!




Ciao,
Stefano Bramato

--
ed io imparo...

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:03:47 +0100, "Keith Tapscott" wrote:

I have a book published by Kodak titled: KODAK HANDBOOK FOR THE
PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHER (VOLUME 4), inside the book is a formulary of
Kodak B&W chemicals, the formula for the 10 grams of Sodium Metaborate
needed for the DK-50 formula using Borax-Decahydrate and Sodium Hydroxide is
as follows:
Sodium Hydroxide (Caustic soda), dissolve separately in 100 ml of cold
water, 1.5 grams of the caustic soda adding it very slowly, stirring
constantly. NEVER add the water to the caustic soda. The amount of
Borax-Decahydrate that is needed is 7 grams, this book dates back to the
1970s when Sodium Metaborate was not so readily available as it is today in
the UK.
Don't you think that it would be better to buy the Sodium Metaborate in the
first place ?

Yes but only because it keeps better on the shelf. Also the prepared blend by a
lab will probably be better than what you can make in your darkroom. When it comes to
bathroom processing of films, I'm all for the KISS approach. That's why I prefer D23 it's
simple and simply works.

JD - www.puresilver.org