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#41
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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
"Bill Graham" wrote in message
"Chris H" wrote in message ... [...] And Saddam was the US's man for the first 20 years for the 30. And Al-qeada & Taliban were originally trained and funded by the USA (to fight the legitimate government in Afghanestan) It is impossible to carry on any sort of intelligent discussion with you, Chris, because you insist on using it to push your own propaganda line. (that everything the US has ever done was evil) Is In this case Chris H simply stated undisputed historical facts. The US has a long and murky history of supporting despots and suppressing democracies when it thought it was in its national interests. |
#42
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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
"tony cooper" wrote in message ... On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 22:55:18 +0100, Chris H wrote: In message , Bill Graham writes "Walter Banks" wrote in message news:4AC4F93B.AA ... Bill Graham wrote: Yes. the problem is we are accustomed to more conventional wars where armies had a home country, and wore uniforms, and assembled together and took up arms against other similar armies. In a terrorist action, or series of terrorist actions such as we are now experiencing, few of the conventional rules apply. In some ways, it is similar to our civil war.....No uniforms, isolated bands of people shooting at other ununiformed isolated bands of people......And, in the same way, it is hard to establish rules of conduct that are cut and dried. Actually it goes right back to 19 April 1775 Americans won that one but 200 years later have not learned the lessons it taught. History before that brought the assassins, ninja and many other unconventional warriors. w. . So we need new rules of acceptable conduct. You got them in 2008 And my question is, are the UN rules, and the Geneva Convention rules, applicable to fighting off these kinds of terrorist actions? Yes... They were for the last 40 years in Norther Ireland. And, if not, then what are we to do before new rules are established, and who will establish them? They have been well defined and used by many armies. It has just takne the US military a LONG time to realise it's mistakes. Personally, I don't see any way out right now, Well the US has dug a bloody big hole for itself/ but for us to establish our own rules as we go. Then you LOOSE and loose big time. The rules are already there the US military has to adapt to them, And this means attacking other rogue countries such as Iran and North Korea as necessary to keep them from acquiring nuclear weapons and selling/giving them to terrorists. If there is some other way to prevent this, I am all ears..... The main rogue state as seen by most of the world is the USA. You finally got "rogue" right. Now work on the difference between "lose" and "loose". I thought the UK was supposed to have a decent education system. Their ability to teach history is also not without some problems...... |
#43
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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
"Savageduck" wrote in message news:2009100117185027722-savageduck@REMOVESPAMmecom... On 2009-10-01 14:07:42 -0700, "Bill Graham" said: "Savageduck" wrote in message news:200910011258549530-savageduck@REMOVESPAMmecom... On 2009-10-01 11:34:10 -0700, "Bill Graham" said: "DRS" wrote in message . au... There is genuine dispute among international jurists about the legitimacy of the Taliban government given the state of armed resistance to it. The invasion of Iraq was unquestionably illegal but the invasion of Afghanistan is legally ambiguous. The invasion of Iraq was not, "unquestionably illegal". I question the illegality of it. Saddam Hussein killed over two million Iraqi's during his 30 year reign as Iraq's president. To me, this justifies eliminating him. Certainly, it at least raises the "question" of legality/illegality. Maybe he only killed one million. Maybe he killed four million. At what point would you consider it mandatory that the other heads of state in this world become justified in killing him? Were we justified in killing Adolf Hitler? Should we have killed Josef Stalin? Should we just turn out backs on anything, and not ever kill anybody, no matter what they do? And, in any case, how can you dismiss the whole argument with a half dozen words? IIRC we did not kill Hitler (unless you know something we haven't been told.) Tojo, we dropped through a floor with a safety rope around his neck, but Hirohito got a pass, you might say Tojo took the fall for him. ...and Stalin was on our side. We accepted him as an ally with full knowledge of his butchery. -- Regards, Savageduck And what does any of the above have to do with the question of whether or not we should take out a despotic head of state? I was just commenting on your twisted take on history. Yes. Well, in logic, you are very much like an American Chris H. It's very difficult for me to carry on an intelligent discussion with anyone on this forum without the two of you making meaningless comments that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. I think I would be well advised to plonk both of you in the same way I would swat a couple of mosquitoes..... |
#44
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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
"DRS" wrote in message . au... "Bill Graham" wrote in message "Chris H" wrote in message ... [...] And Saddam was the US's man for the first 20 years for the 30. And Al-qeada & Taliban were originally trained and funded by the USA (to fight the legitimate government in Afghanestan) It is impossible to carry on any sort of intelligent discussion with you, Chris, because you insist on using it to push your own propaganda line. (that everything the US has ever done was evil) Is In this case Chris H simply stated undisputed historical facts. The US has a long and murky history of supporting despots and suppressing democracies when it thought it was in its national interests. All of which, true or not, has nothing to do with what I was discussing. I would like to find some common ground in deciding what to do about our current dilemma. Regardless of where the fault lies in how we arrived here to begin with. Apparently, you guys just want us to lie down and die because of some perceived mistake you think we made in the past. Well, I doubt if you are going to get your wish. So, why don't you address the current situation, and work to find a solution, instead of finding someone to blame for it? |
#45
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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
I loaned my neighbor a gun. I thought he would use it to defend himself
against intruders. Instead, he went out and shot a dozen people. Now, I am worried about what I should do about it. So, I asked Chris H what he thinks I should do. Chris says, "You loaned him the gun to begin with." So, I say, "Yes, yes.....but now, what should I do? and, Chris says, "If you hadn't loaned him your gun to begin with, you wouldn't have the problem you have now." And, I say, "Even if that's true, I still would like to find a way to solve the present situation. Do you have any suggestions?" And Chris says, "You Americans always do the wrong things". So this is the logic of Chris H. It solves nothing, and is of no use or help at all..... |
#46
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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
On 2009-10-02 00:08:38 -0700, "Bill Graham" said:
"Savageduck" wrote in message news:2009100117185027722-savageduck@REMOVESPAMmecom... On 2009-10-01 14:07:42 -0700, "Bill Graham" said: "Savageduck" wrote in message news:200910011258549530-savageduck@REMOVESPAMmecom... On 2009-10-01 11:34:10 -0700, "Bill Graham" said: "DRS" wrote in message . au... There is genuine dispute among international jurists about the legitimacy of the Taliban government given the state of armed resistance to it. The invasion of Iraq was unquestionably illegal but the invasion of Afghanistan is legally ambiguous. The invasion of Iraq was not, "unquestionably illegal". I question the illegality of it. Saddam Hussein killed over two million Iraqi's during his 30 year reign as Iraq's president. To me, this justifies eliminating him. Certainly, it at least raises the "question" of legality/illegality. Maybe he only killed one million. Maybe he killed four million. At what point would you consider it mandatory that the other heads of state in this world become justified in killing him? Were we justified in killing Adolf Hitler? Should we have killed Josef Stalin? Should we just turn out backs on anything, and not ever kill anybody, no matter what they do? And, in any case, how can you dismiss the whole argument with a half dozen words? IIRC we did not kill Hitler (unless you know something we haven't been told.) Tojo, we dropped through a floor with a safety rope around his neck, but Hirohito got a pass, you might say Tojo took the fall for him. ...and Stalin was on our side. We accepted him as an ally with full knowledge of his butchery. -- Regards, Savageduck And what does any of the above have to do with the question of whether or not we should take out a despotic head of state? I was just commenting on your twisted take on history. Yes. Well, in logic, you are very much like an American Chris H. It's very difficult for me to carry on an intelligent discussion with anyone on this forum without the two of you making meaningless comments that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. I think I would be well advised to plonk both of you in the same way I would swat a couple of mosquitoes..... Bill just remember it is you, who has a somewhat distorted recollection of history. You also have a strange take on your responsibility regarding complying with the Law, Federal, State and Municipal. You make remarks with a questionable basis in fact, which when challenged you either ignore, or claim the truth is unimportant and we should just accept whatever figment of your imagination you spew. I have no idea why you believe erroneous statements on your part should go unchallenged, just because you believe yourself above challenge. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#47
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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
Bill Graham wrote:
I loaned my neighbor a gun. I thought he would use it to defend himself against intruders. Instead, he went out and shot a dozen people. Now, I am worried about what I should do about it. So, I asked Chris H what he thinks I should do. Chris says, "You loaned him the gun to begin with." So, I say, "Yes, yes.....but now, what should I do? and, Chris says, "If you hadn't loaned him your gun to begin with, you wouldn't have the problem you have now." And, I say, "Even if that's true, I still would like to find a way to solve the present situation. Do you have any suggestions?" And Chris says, "You Americans always do the wrong things". So this is the logic of Chris H. It solves nothing, and is of no use or help at all..... But before you loaned that neighbour that gun, all your friends (and, yes, they were real friends) from around the World told you that it was dangerous and a bad idea to loan a gun to that neighbour, giving you very good reasons not to. You responded by calling them cowards, renaming food items and being generally insulting and abnoxious. It is little wonder that those friends are now thinking "I told you so" and are totally convinced that it is *your* problem. |
#48
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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
On 2009-10-02 00:29:07 -0700, "Bill Graham" said:
I loaned my neighbor a gun. I thought he would use it to defend himself against intruders. Instead, he went out and shot a dozen people. Now, I am worried about what I should do about it. So, I asked Chris H what he thinks I should do. Chris says, "You loaned him the gun to begin with." So, I say, "Yes, yes.....but now, what should I do? and, Chris says, "If you hadn't loaned him your gun to begin with, you wouldn't have the problem you have now." And, I say, "Even if that's true, I still would like to find a way to solve the present situation. Do you have any suggestions?" And Chris says, "You Americans always do the wrong things". So this is the logic of Chris H. It solves nothing, and is of no use or help at all..... Huh? WTF are you trying to say? Are making some sort of online confession? or is this another "Oregon Bill, all the World is against me" parable? -- Regards, Savageduck |
#50
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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
In message , Bill Graham
writes "DRS" wrote in message news:QoOdnd_lNr4iAV ... "Bill Graham" wrote in message "Chris H" wrote in message ... [...] And Saddam was the US's man for the first 20 years for the 30. And Al-qeada & Taliban were originally trained and funded by the USA (to fight the legitimate government in Afghanestan) It is impossible to carry on any sort of intelligent discussion with you, Chris, because you insist on using it to push your own propaganda line. (that everything the US has ever done was evil) Is In this case Chris H simply stated undisputed historical facts. The US has a long and murky history of supporting despots and suppressing democracies when it thought it was in its national interests. All of which, true or not, has nothing to do with what I was discussing. I would like to find some common ground in deciding what to do about our current dilemma. Regardless of where the fault lies in how we arrived here to begin with. How we got to this point is VERY valid and also has a direct bearing on how we can get out of it. We have to understand the dynamics of the situation and it's history. That will give yo the motivations of the players. Apparently, you guys just want us to lie down and die because of some perceived mistake you think we made in the past. Not at all. Because of some very real mistakes made by the US (and the US was told at the time they were mistakes) we have arrived at this situation. This means not all options are open on the way to get out. Well, I doubt if you are going to get your wish. So, why don't you address the current situation, and work to find a solution, instead of finding someone to blame for it? I am addressing the current situation. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. The facts are NONE of this is old history. In Afghanistan 50 years is the blink of an eye. SO the last 50 years is "current" many Afghans are speaking of the Americans and Russians in the same sentence because to the Afghans the Russians invading their country was "yesterday" and the Americans "today". Many Afghans can see no difference between the Americans and the Russians. (Other than the Americans have been killing more civilians) SO go get out of this mess the US has got itself into you need to look at the last 100 years in general and the last 40 in particular. You also need to understand it in the context of the region from Syria to China. What the US does in Israel is an important factor as much as bombing a wedding party in the next village. The first thing the US has to wake up to is it is NOT seen as the Good Guy by anyone. The second is the Afghans were civilised at least a millennium before the USA was created (as was Persia). Third What the US calls "freedom and democracy" is as alien to the Afghans as Sharia law is to New York. New York wants Sharia law about as much as the Afghans want a US style democracy. Forth The most important day to day thing is the US forces are an open battle field 20th century army. They have no idea how to fight a Police action in a civilian setting. They can not win using current tactics. Michael Jackson was commenting on this recently The US military needs a major rethink. They got new counter insurgency manuals in 2008 (based on the British ones) but it is going to take some years to turn the super tanker that is the US military. Probably the better part of a decade. However estimates are it will take about 20 years to get out of Afghanistan. -- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ |
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