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#1
April 4th 16, 05:23 PM
posted to rec.photo.digital
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Trusting cheap back-up drives
In article ,
RichA wrote: You can now get stand-alone back-up drives (3T) for under $100.00. But the latest two I got I noticed they don't even have any ventilation holes in the plastic case holding the drive. I wonder if the heat build-up with shorten their lives? Have you put your hand on a recent hard drive after it has been running for a while? That should answer your question. Isaac 
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#2
April 4th 16, 05:36 PM
posted to rec.photo.digital
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Trusting cheap back-up drives
In article , isw
wrote: You can now get stand-alone back-up drives (3T) for under $100.00. But the latest two I got I noticed they don't even have any ventilation holes in the plastic case holding the drive. I wonder if the heat build-up with shorten their lives? Have you put your hand on a recent hard drive after it has been running for a while? That should answer your question. it won't, since some drives run hot and some do not. google did extensive research in hard drive reliability and found that higher temperatures did not necessarily mean earlier failures.
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#3
April 5th 16, 01:24 PM
posted to rec.photo.digital
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Trusting cheap back-up drives
In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote: You can now get stand-alone back-up drives (3T) for under $100.00. But the latest two I got I noticed they don't even have any ventilation holes in the plastic case holding the drive. I wonder if the heat build-up with shorten their lives? Have you put your hand on a recent hard drive after it has been running for a while? That should answer your question. it won't, since some drives run hot and some do not. google did extensive research in hard drive reliability and found that higher temperatures did not necessarily mean earlier failures. It did in the CRT iMacs when the disc suppliers was it hitachi changed their specs and apparenty didnt tell Apple. nope.
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#4
April 5th 16, 02:04 PM
posted to rec.photo.digital
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Trusting cheap back-up drives
In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote: You can now get stand-alone back-up drives (3T) for under $100.00. But the latest two I got I noticed they don't even have any ventilation holes in the plastic case holding the drive. I wonder if the heat build-up with shorten their lives? Have you put your hand on a recent hard drive after it has been running for a while? That should answer your question. it won't, since some drives run hot and some do not. google did extensive research in hard drive reliability and found that higher temperatures did not necessarily mean earlier failures. It did in the CRT iMacs when the disc suppliers was it hitachi changed their specs and apparenty didnt tell Apple. nope. Yep. nope. https://discussions.apple.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0 Ours starting doing thermal shutdowns after I installed a larger and faster hard drive that, presumably produced more heat than the original 10G drive. it's not apple's fault when someone installs a replacement drive on their own and it probably wasn't a hitachi drive either. it also didn't cause a drive failure. the mac shut down because it was too hot. it worked as designed. plenty of otherts found similar things I changed one drive the chip om it was crack due to heat. The couple had the imac on the bed without the feet in postion and smoke came out, that's when they knew something serious was wrong. that's a different type of ****up.
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#5
April 5th 16, 07:45 PM
posted to rec.photo.digital
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Trusting cheap back-up drives
In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote: https://discussions.apple.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0 Ours starting doing thermal shutdowns after I installed a larger and faster hard drive that, presumably produced more heat than the original 10G drive. it's not apple's fault when someone installs a replacement drive on their own and it probably wasn't a hitachi drive either. Why did the 'original drive fail ? who said it failed? nobody. the person said they installed a larger and faster drive. they did not say they replaced a broken drive. There was a batch of drives supplied to Aple that were a difernt spec. so what? the issue is whether higher temperatures can cause premature drive failure and the answer is no. very simple. as usual, you're bringing up totally irrelevant stuff because you're confused as hell. The MTBF remained the same but instead of building them to work 24/7 they changed to something like 18/24 as they down rated them but didn;t tell apple who had designed the cooling arund drive that could be on 24/7. there is no proof for that but regardless, that's a different issue than operating temperature and its relation to failure rates. it also didn't cause a drive failure. the mac shut down because it was too hot. it worked as designed. Buy on a mnumber of tehm the drive failed before shutdown. all drives fail. the question is when. plenty of otherts found similar things I changed one drive the chip om it was crack due to heat. The couple had the imac on the bed without the feet in postion and smoke came out, that's when they knew something serious was wrong. that's a different type of ****up. why didn;t the iMac shutdown then as yuo suggest it should have ? You said if it gets too hot it shuts down why didn't it. ? read your own link: Ours starting doing thermal shutdowns... and 80F/26C isn't really that hot for the drive, which is the only sensor on that Mac. It's actually quite cool... ...My drive temps stay around 36-39C... even 39c is not very hot for a hard drive. i have a couple that run *very* hot (too hot to hold) and are just as reliable as ones that run cool.
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#7
April 6th 16, 03:34 PM
posted to rec.photo.digital
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Trusting cheap back-up drives
In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote: https://discussions.apple.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0 Ours starting doing thermal shutdowns after I installed a larger and faster hard drive that, presumably produced more heat than the original 10G drive. it's not apple's fault when someone installs a replacement drive on their own and it probably wasn't a hitachi drive either. Why did the 'original drive fail ? who said it failed? nobody. Few people replace an internal drive for teh fun of it. wrong. many people swap drives because they want a larger capacity drive and/or a faster drive, which lately is an ssd. the person said they installed a larger and faster drive. they did not say they replaced a broken drive. then why was that a problem ? read the link. There was a batch of drives supplied to Aple that were a difernt spec. so what? Try thinking about it. They had a bad batch of capacitors too at one point. not on the hard drives, they didn't. stick to the topic. the issue is whether higher temperatures can cause premature drive failure and the answer is no. very simple. The answer is yes . wrong. see google's research. as usual, you're bringing up totally irrelevant stuff because you're confused as hell. and you know very little about hardware. much more than you do, that's for sure. The MTBF remained the same but instead of building them to work 24/7 they changed to something like 18/24 as they down rated them but didn;t tell apple who had designed the cooling arund drive that could be on 24/7. there is no proof for that but regardless, that's a different issue than operating temperature and its relation to failure rates. No it is not. yes it is. it also didn't cause a drive failure. the mac shut down because it was too hot. it worked as designed. Buy on a mnumber of tehm the drive failed before shutdown. all drives fail. the question is when. And why, why do they fail then ? because they're mechanical devices with moving parts. Ours starting doing thermal shutdowns... so why did it shutdown why not keep running ? do you not know what a thermal shutdown is? and 80F/26C isn't really that hot for the drive, which is the only sensor on that Mac. It's actually quite cool... ...My drive temps stay around 36-39C... even 39c is not very hot for a hard drive. i have a couple that run *very* hot (too hot to hold) and are just as reliable as ones that run cool. yes I know my imac drive runs at well above that working normally it's when yuo get above 80C. You then getv problems with temperature cycling where the connectors or any other physical point of contact expands and contracts with time, this can typical cause cracks and fractures in the solder joints. Why do you think computers have opperating temeratures, even the chips have min and max opperating tempratures. 39C is **** all I drink tea at 50C my imac CPU typically reaches 60C the GPU diode reaches 101C, my imac HD typical is 40-50C in other words, not running hot.
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#8
April 7th 16, 12:44 AM
posted to rec.photo.digital
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Trusting cheap back-up drives
In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote: https://discussions.apple.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0 Ours starting doing thermal shutdowns after I installed a larger and faster hard drive that, presumably produced more heat than the original 10G drive. it's not apple's fault when someone installs a replacement drive on their own and it probably wasn't a hitachi drive either. Why did the 'original drive fail ? who said it failed? nobody. Few people replace an internal drive for teh fun of it. wrong. many people swap drives because they want a larger capacity drive and/or a faster drive, which lately is an ssd. Most buy external drives especailly for macs because of the difficculty of putting them in, don't forget the CRT macs weren;t towers designed to add drives. this isn't about external drives. Even then the limit was 120Gb on the majority of the CRT iMacs. that had nothing to do with apple and everything to do with 48 bit lba. it also has nothing to do with temperature and failure rates. stick to the topic. Few bothered to replace drives themselves, and even then it was becasue the internals had died I only did this on 3 CRT iMacs, everyone else just brought an external if they wanted more storage but few did at the time. few people fix stuff on their own no matter what it is. so what. most people would rather just take their computer (or car or tv or whatever) to the store and let someone else worry about it. the person said they installed a larger and faster drive. they did not say they replaced a broken drive. then why was that a problem ? read the link. I did because the drive got hot, and why did it get hot ? as according to you there's no downside. according to *google*, higher temps does not correlate with drive failures. why is this so hard for you to understand? do you realize how many drives google buys and uses? do you know that because google stores an insane amount of data that the bit error rates on hard drives actually become an issue? do you know that google has their own file system to hold the huge amounts of data they maintain? if anyone is in a position to comment on drive reliability, it would be google. There was a batch of drives supplied to Aple that were a difernt spec. so what? Try thinking about it. They had a bad batch of capacitors too at one point. not on the hard drives, they didn't. stick to the topic. I am the batch of capacitors went faulty mainly due to temperature. This is why components including hard drives have temperature limitations. nope. the capacitor failure issue about a decade ago was because they were defective, not because they were hot. The first time I encountered this it was with a Metheus computer a unix machine that had a massive 80GB internal 5/1/4 inch hard drive that have specail voice coiled setup so that the head moved correctly with the increase in temerature, this was in 1982/3 . Temperature has always been a problem right from the first electroic computers to even today. only if it's outside the intended operating spec. the issue is whether higher temperatures can cause premature drive failure and the answer is no. very simple. The answer is yes . wrong. see google's research. I prefer facts, real ones rather than virtual. then why don't you seek out facts rather than make up **** and babble about totally irrelevant stuff? Drives have electronic components on them, they can fail and have done one on the HD was cracked. Ot are you saying it was the OS that caused it ? you're *so* confused. as usual, you're bringing up totally irrelevant stuff because you're confused as hell. and you know very little about hardware. much more than you do, that's for sure. yes really. I was a mac service enginner in 1992 well thats' when I went on the course, but I was doing it unofficaly since the macplus was 1 year old. whop de do. do you have any concept of how many computers and hard drives are in google's data centers? Even McDs know about excessive temperatures and how it can cause problems. wtf does mcdonald's have to do with drive failures? you're so lost.
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#9
April 7th 16, 03:13 PM
posted to rec.photo.digital
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Trusting cheap back-up drives
In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote: Why did the 'original drive fail ? who said it failed? nobody. Few people replace an internal drive for teh fun of it. wrong. many people swap drives because they want a larger capacity drive and/or a faster drive, which lately is an ssd. Most buy external drives especailly for macs because of the difficculty of putting them in, don't forget the CRT macs weren;t towers designed to add drives. this isn't about external drives. external drives have internal drives in them. external drives have a drive *mechanism* in them. Even then the limit was 120Gb on the majority of the CRT iMacs. that had nothing to do with apple and everything to do with 48 bit lba. Yes on G3 and early G4s where the actual limit was 131,072 MB which came out at 128GB. So anyone buying a bigger drive would or should have know this. again, that has nothing to do with apple. every computer and drive enclosure on the planet at that time had the same limitation. it also has nothing to do with temperature and failure rates. stick to the topic. And temperature can adversly effet all electronic components, which is why PCs Macs, servers, all have cooling otherwise they wouldn't bother would they. this is about hard drives, not pcs, macs, servers, etc. the person said they installed a larger and faster drive. they did not say they replaced a broken drive. then why was that a problem ? read the link. I did because the drive got hot, and why did it get hot ? as according to you there's no downside. according to *google*, higher temps does not correlate with drive failures. according to google links I don't care. Because google do not know the facts only what people search for. you're not paying attention, as usual. this isn't about what people search for. it's what google, the company, found when buying ****loads of drives (over 100,000 of them and from multiple manufacturers) for their server farms. read this before you continue to babble: http://static.googleusercontent.com/....com/en//archi ve/disk_failures.pdf Failure Trends in a Large Disk Drive Population Our analysis identifies several parameters from the driveıs self monitoring facility (SMART) that correlate highly with failures. Despite this high correlation, we conclude that mod- els based on SMART parameters alone are unlikely to be useful for predicting individual drive failures. Surprisingly, we found that temperature and activity levels were much less correlated with drive failures than previously reported .... Contrary to previously reported results, we found very little correlation between failure rates and either elevated temperature or activity levels. Some SMART parameters (scan errors, reallocation counts, offline reallocation counts, and probational counts) have a large impact on failure probability. Given the lack of occurrence of predictive SMART signals on a large fraction of failed drives, it is unlikely that an accurate predictive failure model can be built based on these signals alone. .... We first look at the correlation between average temperature during the observation period and failure. Figure 4 shows the distribution of drives with average temperature in increments of one degree and the corresponding annualized failure rates. The figure shows that failures do not increase when the average temperature increases. In fact, there is a clear trend showing that lower temperatures are associated with higher failure rates. Only at very high temperatures is there a slight reversal of this trend. .... One of our key findings has been the lack of a consistent pattern of higher failure rates for higher temperature drives or for those drives at higher utilization levels. Such correlations have been repeatedly highlighted by previous studies, but we are unable to confirm them by observing our population. Although our data do not allow us to conclude that there is no such correlation, it provides strong evidence to suggest that other effects may be more prominent in affecting disk drive reliability in the context of a professionally managed data center deployment. https://www.recordnations.com/articl...e-overheating/ that's an *ad*. So why do they put fans in PCs and Macs ? for the fun of it to keep the room warm ? to stop global warming ? Why do server system have so many fans in them ? the fans are in pcs and macs because the cpu/gpu/etc. need to be cool. hard drives don't. in fact, many external drives, if not most of them, do *not* have fans. a lot use plastic enclosures which are not very good heat sinks. why is this so hard for you to understand? do you realize how many drives google buys and uses? Don't gove a ****. of course not, because you aren't interested in facts. Google don't make drives they buy them. so do people who buy computers and external hard drives. you're so confused. do you know that because google stores an insane amount of data Hardly insane. it really is insane amounts. https://www.cirrusinsight.com/blog/how-much-data-does-google-store Using this method, they determined that Google holds somewhere around 10-15 exabytes of data. If you are in the majority of the population that doesnıt know what an exabyte is, no worries. An exabyte equals 1 million terabytes, a figure that may be a bit easier to relate to. Using our estimate earlier of a personal computer holding around 500 GB, that would mean 1 exabyte would equal 2 million personal computers, and Google's 15 exabytes would be around 30 million personal computers! that the bit error rates on hard drives actually become an issue? do you know that google has their own file system to hold the huge amounts of data they maintain? Do I care , no. Does it mean that HD and electronics can have issues with extreme temeratures yes. nobody said anything about extreme temperatures. if anyone is in a position to comment on drive reliability, it would be google. No it would be hardware vendors not software companies. hardware vendors have a vested interest *not* to disclose product flaws. they are *not* going to provide objective information. google has no vested interest in anything. they bought ****loads of drives from multiple vendors and reported what they found. the issue is whether higher temperatures can cause premature drive failure and the answer is no. very simple. The answer is yes . wrong. see google's research. I prefer facts, real ones rather than virtual. then why don't you seek out facts rather than make up **** and babble about totally irrelevant stuff? I know the facts all you can do is search on google you know nothing. i didn't 'search on google'. what i did was read google's *white* *paper* about what they found in buying over 100,000 drives. BHow do you know what goolge does because they have been pretty secrative because google published a report, which i read and you have not. about it sicne about 2006 when they used cheap off the shelf drives, andf loads of them, rather than buying premium server drives at a higher cost. https://www.backblaze.com/blog/enterprise-drive-reliability/ At first glance, it seems the enterprise drives donıt have that many failures. While true, the failure rate of enterprise drives is actually higher than that of the consumer drives! .... So, Are Enterprise Drives Worth The Cost? From a pure reliability perspective, the data we have says the answer is clear: No. Enterprise drives do have one advantage: longer warranties. Thatıs a benefit only if the higher price you pay for the longer warranty is less than what you expect to spend on replacing the drive. This leads to an obvious conclusion: If youıre OK with buying the replacements yourself after the warranty is up, then buy the cheaper consumer drives.
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#10
April 7th 16, 05:51 PM
posted to rec.photo.digital
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Trusting cheap back-up drives
In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote: external drives have internal drives in them. external drives have a drive *mechanism* in them. yes external drives all have an internal drive in them. Some might call this a drive *mechanism* but external drives don't work with just the *mechanism*. of course they do. all you need is a cable with usb on one end, sata on the other: https://sgcdn.startech.com/005329/me...large/USB3S2SA T3CB.main.jpg this one even has two usb plugs for the ****ty computers that have insufficient power over usb: https://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordp...osatacable2.jp g some do both pata and sata: http://www.usbgear.com/images/Y103SS22.jpg or, get a drive dock, some of which also have card slots: http://media.gadgetsin.com/2015/05/satechi_usb_30_docking_station_1.jpg Even then the limit was 120Gb on the majority of the CRT iMacs. that had nothing to do with apple and everything to do with 48 bit lba. Yes on G3 and early G4s where the actual limit was 131,072 MB which came out at 128GB. So anyone buying a bigger drive would or should have know this. again, that has nothing to do with apple. I didn't say it had anything to do with apple. Why do you want to keep bringing it back to Apple ? you're the one who keeps mentioning apple, imacs and g3/g4 towers. i'm talking about temperature and failure rates of hard drives, completely independent of what product in which they are installed. the hard drives could be in a mac, a pc, a linux box, an external enclosure, a drive dock, a dvr or various other products. https://www.recordnations.com/articl...e-overheating/ that's an *ad*. So what. ads are not facts. if you rely on ads for your information, then it's no wonder you're so ****ed up.
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