old brownie film..scanning..help

I'm amazed at the quality of b/w pictures that my mom took with her
brownie camera in the 40's to 50's. The film is preserved in pristine
condition.

Now I want to scan all her negatives, but I'm not sure what flatbed will
accept the film format. First of all can someone tell me what the format is
that the Brownie's used? Can you recommend a flatbed scanner? I scan 35mm
negs on a Nikon V, so I have some knowledge of the terminology and work
flow. I'm just not sure which flat bed has the right film holders for the
format of my mom's negatives. I'm sure the largest size I want to print
will be 5x7. Other than that I'll be burning the images to cd for family to
use for their own purposes...be it web albums or slide shows.

BTW, I also shoot 120 with my Mamiya rb67, and still have an urge to try 4x5
LF, so spending a little extra on a better scanner is a possibility. Yes I
know flat bed is inferior to a drum scan.

Any suggestions?

I wrote:
I'm amazed at the quality of b/w pictures that my mom took with her
brownie camera in the 40's to 50's. The film is preserved in pristine
condition.

Now I want to scan all her negatives, but I'm not sure what flatbed will
accept the film format.

There were lots of film formats used in the 1940's and 1950's. Brownie
was a name Kodak used for many different cameras.

There are several articles out there (STFW) about scaning 4x5 and other
large format negatives on a regular flat bed scanner. Basicly the
technology is the same.

The trick to using a flatbed scanner is to determine the actual resolution
of the scanner. Many scanners claim to produce 4800 dpi scans, but they only
scan at 1200 DPI. They create the extra pixels by interpolation,
the mathematical calcualtion of what should be there (at least as
far as the program can do it) from what it does scan.

If you do a scan at the highest native resolution of your scanner you
should be fine.

Another thing to be careful about is that the programs that come with
flatbed scanners often do not scan black and white negatives properly.

Programs such as Vuescan do a much better job.

The best way to scan a black and white negative is to scan it in full color
and then reduce it to grayscale in photoshop.

If you do print them, note that many inkjet printers print black and white
prints better in color mode than black only. If you print in black only
you are stuck with the color of the black ink (which usually has a
magenta cast) and you can adjust it if you use color ink. The best
way of course is to use a multi ink black system such as Epson's.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 01:52:08 -0600, "I"
wrote:

I'm amazed at the quality of b/w pictures that my mom took with her
brownie camera in the 40's to 50's. The film is preserved in pristine
condition.

Now I want to scan all her negatives, but I'm not sure what flatbed will
accept the film format. First of all can someone tell me what the format is
that the Brownie's used?

If the pictures were taken in the 1940s and 50s then it's almost
certainly 120, 620 or 127 film. You say you use 120 so I'm assuming
you'd recognise that (and therefore also 620, which was 120 wound on
smaller spools), although the frame size is probably 6 x 9 rather than
the 6 x 7 you're used to.

127 film is 45mm wide; the 127 Brownies used a variety of frame sizes
from 40 x 65mm to 45 x 60mm. I'm not aware of any scanners that come
with adaptors for 127, although the link below has information from
people who have been in a similar situation:
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=007RqT

If the camera wasn't new in the 1940s then there's a chance it may
have used 116 or 130 film (64 x 108mm and 72 x 123mm respectively).
Treat these as large format.

--
Matthew Winn
[If replying by mail remove the "r" from "urk"]

That's a good thread. Thanks.

"Matthew Winn" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 01:52:08 -0600, "I"
wrote:

I'm amazed at the quality of b/w pictures that my mom took with her
brownie camera in the 40's to 50's. The film is preserved in pristine
condition.

Now I want to scan all her negatives, but I'm not sure what flatbed
will
accept the film format. First of all can someone tell me what the format
is
that the Brownie's used?

If the pictures were taken in the 1940s and 50s then it's almost
certainly 120, 620 or 127 film. You say you use 120 so I'm assuming
you'd recognise that (and therefore also 620, which was 120 wound on
smaller spools), although the frame size is probably 6 x 9 rather than
the 6 x 7 you're used to.

127 film is 45mm wide; the 127 Brownies used a variety of frame sizes
from 40 x 65mm to 45 x 60mm. I'm not aware of any scanners that come
with adaptors for 127, although the link below has information from
people who have been in a similar situation:
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=007RqT

If the camera wasn't new in the 1940s then there's a chance it may
have used 116 or 130 film (64 x 108mm and 72 x 123mm respectively).
Treat these as large format.

--
Matthew Winn
[If replying by mail remove the "r" from "urk"]

I wrote:
I'm amazed at the quality of b/w pictures that my mom took with her
brownie camera in the 40's to 50's. The film is preserved in pristine
condition.

Now I want to scan all her negatives, but I'm not sure what flatbed will
accept the film format. First of all can someone tell me what the format is
that the Brownie's used? Can you recommend a flatbed scanner? I scan 35mm
negs on a Nikon V, so I have some knowledge of the terminology and work
flow. I'm just not sure which flat bed has the right film holders for the
format of my mom's negatives. I'm sure the largest size I want to print
will be 5x7. Other than that I'll be burning the images to cd for family to
use for their own purposes...be it web albums or slide shows.

BTW, I also shoot 120 with my Mamiya rb67, and still have an urge to try 4x5
LF, so spending a little extra on a better scanner is a possibility. Yes I
know flat bed is inferior to a drum scan.

Flatbed: Epson 4990

Film scanner: Nikon 8000/9000 (not drum)

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

I'm amazed at the quality of b/w pictures that my mom took with her
brownie camera in the 40's to 50's. The film is preserved in pristine
condition.

Now I want to scan all her negatives, but I'm not sure what flatbed
will
accept the film format. First of all can someone tell me what the
format is that the Brownie's used?

As others already followed-up, there were a number of different
medium format films available then. My mom had a brownie camera
that used 127 film, which was about 3x4 inches. (Unfortunately,
the lens was at most a simple, 2-element achromat, with fixed
focus.)

How about if you measure one of your negatives, and let us
know how big it is?

I have an Epson 4490 scanner, which can scan 120/220 medium
format, but not wider. The 120 film holder has a scan area
of 2 1/4" x 4 3/4". If that's sufficient for you, then the
4490 is plenty good to get all the details from your brownie
negatives. You will not need anywhere near it's 4800 dpi
resolution. I expect that 600 or 1200 dpi will probably be plenty,
considering the quality of images the brownie cameras produced.

Can you recommend a flatbed scanner?

If you need a wider scan area, then you need at least an Epson
4990 Photo. Also consider the Epson V700 Photo and V750M-Pro.

I scan 35mm negs on a Nikon V, so I have some knowledge of the
terminology and work flow. I'm just not sure which flat bed has the
right film holders for the format of my mom's negatives.

Maybe none of them. You may have to pretend your negatives are 4x5",
and maybe make some kind of adapter to get them to fit a 4x5 film
holder. Or maybe just get a piece of single-strength (thin) glass
to place on top of the brownie negative to hold it flat against the
scanner glass, and forgo the film holder.

Jay Ts

"Jay Ts"
How about if you measure one of your negatives, and let us
know how big it is?

I measured my negatives:
Width is 61mm (2 3/8")
Images are apx 60mm X 83mm (2 3/8 x 3 1/4)


I have an Epson 4490 scanner, which can scan 120/220 medium
format, but not wider. The 120 film holder has a scan area
of 2 1/4" x 4 3/4". If that's sufficient for you, then the
4490 is plenty good to get all the details from your brownie
negatives. You will not need anywhere near it's 4800 dpi
resolution. I expect that 600 or 1200 dpi will probably be plenty,
considering the quality of images the brownie cameras produced.
You may have to pretend your negatives are 4x5",
and maybe make some kind of adapter to get them to fit a 4x5 film
holder. Or maybe just get a piece of single-strength (thin) glass
to place on top of the brownie negative to hold it flat against the
scanner glass, and forgo the film holder.

I was under the impression that using glass over the negative caused
"moire"...if that is the correct term to use.
But if glass over negative will work then I could do that.

When you're scanning negs on a flatbed capable of negatives...is there a
certain area of the bed that must be used, where a back light is mounted?
Or is the whole bed area available?
Sorry for the ignorant questions, I've never physicall handled flatbeds
with negative holders other than the cheapos you find at walmart etc.

"Jay Ts"
How about if you measure one of your negatives, and let us know how big
it is?

I measured my negatives:
Width is 61mm (2 3/8")
Images are apx 60mm X 83mm (2 3/8 x 3 1/4)

Aha, seems you have 120/200 film there. 60 x 83 mm is just 6x8 cm
format on 120 film.

Assuming I'm right about that, you can use an Epson 4490, with
it's medium format film carrier, no problem. But you'll still
need the 4990 if you want to do 4x5" format too.

When you're scanning negs on a flatbed capable of negatives...is there
a certain area of the bed that must be used, where a back light is
mounted?

Yes, exactly. For example, the Epson 4490 has a lighted strip in the
cover that illuminates the film from "behind" (actually, top). The
film carriers have positioning pins to make sure the film is lined
up correctly, and the film is scanned, emulsion side up, by the same
mechanism used for scanning reflective art. When not scanning film,
there is a white cover that slides/attaches over the backlight area.
I've worked with one model each from Canon, HP and Epson, and they
all operate basically the same way.

BTW, I went through both a Canon and HP scanner before settling
on Epson. I found that Canon's and HP's quoted "optical resolution"
figures to be exaggerated, and HP's new "6 color" photo scanner
isn't much better (if at all) in color accuracy than any good
3-color (RGB) scanner. Epson seems to be the "good stuff" at
this time. They say 4800 dpi, and it's really much less, but
at least you can get better than 2400.

I don't know if Epson's V700 and V750 are better. Epson says
it can do 6400 dpi for some scans, but I don't know if you get
to tell it when to use 6400dpi, or if it decides by itself.
Anyone know about this?

Jay Ts

but I don't know if you get to tell it when to use 6400dpi,

This is controlled by whether you choose "film with film holder" (6400
capable lens) or "film area guide"(4800 capable lens but you do not use a
film holder) in the scanning softwares options panel (use Professional mode
if using EpsonScan). You can then choose any of the available resolutions
up to the maximum just stated.

Doug
---
www.BetterScanning.com - Custom Film Holders and Accessories for Agfa,
Microtek and Epson Scanners

Or maybe just get a piece of single-strength (thin) glass
to place on top of the brownie negative to hold it flat against the
scanner glass, and forgo the film holder.
Jay Ts

I purchased a new 4990 scanner today.
I realized now too that my mother also has 127 format negs.
I don't see any problem for me fabricating a special holder for the 127 and
maybe even the 120 film (each frame is cut separately). I found an very
good online hands on review of this scanner which states the best focusing
plane is 1mm above the scanner's glass. So I'm thinking that sandwiching
the negatives flat on the glass with another sheet of glass is not the best
thing to do. Besides...I don't know where to get anti-moiré glass to use
(as this review says is a must).

I'll post some links to my progress when I get going on this scanner.