New Zeiss Ikon camera system

Jeremy wrote:

"Stephen H. Westin"

They may not need many buyers, at the price they are asking.


There will be the initial rash of collectors, to be sure, but what then?

Sure, some nostalgia will sell some cameras. Some enthralled with the Zeiss
name will buy some lenses. This is not much different than an amateur buying
the latest high dollar digital SLR, and long telephoto lenses, just because
they can afford it. There does not need to be rational thought to justify
purchases . . . nothing different here.



Who will commit to a system that can't be relied upon to remain in
production. What about parts and service?

The camera will be Leica M mount. If the camera expired, then the lenses would
still work on another Leica M mount body. Considering that there are still
Petri brand cheap rangefinder cameras still in use, and that company has been
long gone, I don't think it would be an issue for amateurs.

This is an area in which Nikon
excels. How about loaners or lens rentals?

Hasselblad has been very good about rental gear, especially lenses. I hope with
Hasselblad handling most of the distribution, that they will decide to make
rental gear available. More professionals would use this system with rental
support. I doubt they would approach the level of gear selection Nikon enjoys
in rental items, but anything would be a welcome change.



My point is, would such a camera system be practical for a working
professional?

There are some professionals who work with Leica M rangefinder cameras, though
it is rare for those individuals to only own one camera, or to only take one
camera on location. I think buying one of the new Zeiss cameras, and having a
Leica body as a second camera would be fine for many working situations. Of
course, one needs to consider that working with any rangefinder cameras
involves accepting some limitations when compared to using SLR cameras.

That seems to be the same problem that plagued the Leica R
system: excellent optics, sturdy camera bodies, but not enough sales to
justify the large service network of a competitor like Nikon.

And almost no rental gear anywhere. There are Leica R using professionals, but
very few.

I think Zeiss is playing it smart by going off the distribution network that
Hasselblad already has established. While not as large as Mamiya, nor any
Japanese 35 mm companies, the Hasselblad network is fairly good sized, and well
represented in larger cities.

Who can
afford to risk his tools of his trade being out of service, with no speedy
loaners/rentals/repairs available?

This is a policy area in which they do not have any information yet. If service
is through Hasselblad, then perhaps the risk is minimal. Parts availability and
repair turnaround are issues. Shutter or rangefinder adjustment and service are
other areas. I would imagine these questions should be answered soon,
especially since Zeiss is very good at answering these types of enquiries. I
guess it comes down to having confidence in Zeiss.



How is that Rollei rangefinder system doing?? I've heard nothing in over a
year. It has only 3 lenses, last I looked. Who is going to dump Leica for
that?

The Rollei is barely different from the Voigtländer Bessa R2, but much more
money. Other than one lens, there is no difference between the Rollei and the
Bessa R2. With the Zeiss, the rangefinder makes the camera very different in
operation. Most of the lenses are also different. Take a look at the PDF
downloads for the lenses, and compare them to the Voigtländer choices of the
same focal length, and you find obvious differences.

I doubt anyone would dump a Leica M for one of these, though they might buy one
as a second cameras. I think Zeiss might be counting more upon lenses sales to
Leica M owners, rather than camera body sales. However, it is definitely a
competitor to the Leica M7, and fills the void left by discontinuation of the
Konica Hexar RF. It is quite likely a better camera system than the Contax G2,
unless you like autofocus.



Maybe it;s just all the rain we're having here today, but I am cynical about
the prospects of this new system.

I would be surprised if they sold ten thousand cameras world wide in their
first year. Of course, that might still make it a success for them. I really
wonder what Leica thinks of this, and whether they welcome it.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
http://www.allgstudio.com Updated!

You CAN say just about anything you want, but Cosina has never made a
product that was worth buying.

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"Jan Keirse" wrote in message
...
Tony wrote:

Can you say "Cosina"?
Another POS.

well you can look at it that way, you could also say that Cosina is
producing a
zeiss. If the design is good, and zeiss learns cosina how to produce the
thing
it will be a good camera. Maybe quality control during manufacturing will
suck
somewhat, resulting in broken cameras but you can get them replaced,
you'll
eventuall have a good one (I hope). What I'm saying is that you shouldn't
crack
it down before you're sure it sucks. It might, but personally I don't
expect it
to.
just IMHO ;-)


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Website: http://jankeirse.free.fr Mobile: +32 (0)485 089 786

Which raises the question - is there enough market for high end M-mount
bodies and lenses left to keep Leica afloat? It is one thing for Leica to
dismiss Cosina/V M-mount bodies and lenses (among other competitors) at
the "lower" end, but a competition with zeiss at 30%+ higher prices for
Leica may be more problematic? Isn't zeiss's branded zeiss ikon program
aimed at the same collector types who keep Leica afloat now?

There were circa 12,000 M-bodies sold (1999), so 1,200 Zeiss Ikon M-mount
bodies would represent circa 10% of their annual market sales in bodies,
yes? And that's just the initial branded batch, with more sales in the
year after the first set of Zeiss Ikon cameras are sold, right? ;-)

Many leica lenses sell in very small volumes already (circa 1.2 lenses or
less sold per body see http://medfmt.8k.com/third/economics.html#1.2 )
A 30% discount is pretty large at these kilobuck lens prices too ;-)

In short, if Cosina/V helped create an M-body rangefinder renaissance,
then Leica should have benefitted from the expanding market base by
selling more high end optics and folks trading up or adding Leica bodies
and lenses once they got into RF use. But with zeiss positioning itself
below Leica in price substantially (30% etc.) but similar in quality
and with perhaps even more name recognition (among professionals, serious
amateurs..?), it may be an interesting marketing challenge for Leica, yes?

my $.10 ;-) bobm
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********************Standard Disclaimers Apply*************************

"Gordon Moat" wrote in message
...
[SNIP]

I doubt anyone would dump a Leica M for one of these, though
they might buy one as a second cameras. I think Zeiss might be
counting more upon lenses sales to Leica M owners, rather than
camera body sales. However, it is definitely a competitor to the
Leica M7, and fills the void left by discontinuation of the Konica
Hexar RF. It is quite likely a better camera system than the Contax
G2, unless you like autofocus.


That, surely, is the point: it isn't a 'new system', rather, it's another M
mount camera. The body, being Cosina Voigtlander based, isn't going to kill
Zeiss to make even in small quantities - look at the CV rangefinders for the
Nikon SP and Contax systems, after all.

What matters to Zeiss is that it gives them a lovely platform for a push
into making M mount lenses - which will have appeal to a lot of Leica users
(and Leica collectors.)

In that light, I think it makes sense for Zeiss. And as you say, the body
does help fill the gap left by the Hexar RF.


Peter

"Gordon Moat" wrote in message
...
[SNIP]

I doubt anyone would dump a Leica M for one of these, though
they might buy one as a second cameras. I think Zeiss might be
counting more upon lenses sales to Leica M owners, rather than
camera body sales. However, it is definitely a competitor to the
Leica M7, and fills the void left by discontinuation of the Konica
Hexar RF. It is quite likely a better camera system than the Contax
G2, unless you like autofocus.


That, surely, is the point: it isn't a 'new system', rather, it's another M
mount camera. The body, being Cosina Voigtlander based, isn't going to kill
Zeiss to make even in small quantities - look at the CV rangefinders for the
Nikon SP and Contax systems, after all.

What matters to Zeiss is that it gives them a lovely platform for a push
into making M mount lenses - which will have appeal to a lot of Leica users
(and Leica collectors.)

In that light, I think it makes sense for Zeiss. And as you say, the body
does help fill the gap left by the Hexar RF.


Peter

In article . net,
Jeremy wrote:

"Chris Brown"
Reading between the lines, Zeiss are aiming at digital, and their 35mm
rangefinder is just a stopgap measure.

Not sure I understand your reasoning

It's not my reasoning. Go and read the FAQ on the zeissicon website -
you don't even have to read very far between the lines to realise that they
embarked on this enterprise with digital cameras in mind from the start.

--those 35mm photographers that are into
maximum image quality are likely to stick with film.

35mm has many selling points, but "maximum image quality" isn't one of them.
Leica snobbery aside (and I say this as someone who owns at least one Leica
lens), if you want "maximum image quality" in a rangefinder package, you
should be taking your custom to the likes of Mamiya.

And anyway, digital photography and 35mm photography don't have to be some
kind of sworn enemies - there's no law stopping you from using both. If you
can use the same lenses with both, it's doubly attractive. Until very
recently, swapping lenses between 35mm and digital systems was the preserve
of 35mm SLR, medium and large format users, with 35mm rangefinder users out
in the cold.

How does a precision
rangefinder with what I presume will be top-shelf lenses act as an
inducement to move anyone toward digital?

Who's trying to move anybody anywhere? Some digital photographers will want
to use a digital rangefinder instead of a digital SLR for mostly the same
reasons that some 35mm photographers.

At the moment, Epson/Cosina have the digital rangefinder market to
themselves with their RD1.

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:29:51 +0000, Tony had this to say:

You CAN say just about anything you want, but Cosina has never made a
product that was worth buying.

Just like Nikon, eh?

I'm guessing you got screwed by Cosina at some point.

--
DD™
"And that's all I got to say about that" ~ FG

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:29:51 +0000, Tony had this to say:

You CAN say just about anything you want, but Cosina has never made a
product that was worth buying.

Just like Nikon, eh?

I'm guessing you got screwed by Cosina at some point.

--
DD™
"And that's all I got to say about that" ~ FG

Jeremy wrote:

"Ralf R. Radermacher" wrote in message
...

Prices are around 2000 Euros for the body and about 2/3 of the Leitz
price level for the lenses.


Leica, according to everything I've read from Erwin Puts, is barely hanging
on, producing cameras in numbers that Japanese manufacturers would consider
miniscule.

They always did, its a "boutique" brand, or "exclusive"
brand with all the positive sound to it.

But the issue here is different: Their reputation was never
tarnished by substandard products and so the legend of
Leitz is unbroken, especially regarding their glass. They
make and sell top quality product as a top price and target
a "minuscule" number of customers. What they need now is a
partner to go with in order to enter the digital era. Future
will show if Panasonic was the right choice, currently they
seem to be doing well together.


Rollei has come out with a high end rangefinder, in an attempt to compete
with Leica.

Now Zeiss enters this market.

If Ralf is correct is spreading the rumor about Cosina,
than the case of Zeiss is a bit different. Cosina does not
have a positive reputation, regardless if they will actually
deliver a great product. Let's call it a "brand trade,"
lending the Logo for money.


All the former so dominant German consumer optics and camera
companies seem to "emerge" now and than with some strange
products with one of these old names, like Voigtlander or
Rollei or Zeiss. These are in many cases east asian companies
using these brands only to enter the market. Have you noticed
how present are suddenly all these German lenses on digital
cameras? Kodak has Schneiders, Sony has Zeiss and Panasonic has
Leica Elmarit or Summicron. We never really know which of these
are actually made in Germany, or at the least designed in
Germany. I have a "Zeiss Loupe," but in fact I found "Made
in Japan" on it, by Kyocera.

Thomas


Meanwhile, the sales prospects for all 35mm film cameras are dropping, as
many photographers shift to digital imaging. Kodak is rumored to be
preparing to discontinue production of various film emulsions, once their
sales figures drop below what Kodak defines as an acceptable level.

Even without the effect of the shift to digital, SLRs eclipsed rangefinders
decades ago.

So where are all the buyers for this new Zeiss Ikon camera system?

ThomasH wrote:

If Ralf is correct is spreading the rumor about Cosina,
than the case of Zeiss is a bit different.

I asked the Zeiss man at their Photokina stand who would be
manufacturing the camera and he said, "the company that also makes the
Bessas".

Ralf

--
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