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#11
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Why all the noise about noise?
On 2009-10-01 18:17:33 -0700, Chris Malcolm said:
Alan Browne wrote: David J Taylor wrote: "Alan Browne" wrote in message ... [] Having said that, noise that looks like film grain can even enhance the mood of an image... of course noise can always be added in photoshop but cannot be removed very easily. Alan, even my Paint Shop Pro from a few versions back has a "Digital Camera Noise Removal" feature (I prefer "reduction" rather than "removal") - surely PhotoShop has something similar? G Good one. Are you happy? No it doesn't. You have to buy 3rd party s/w. Maybe Adobe are being bribed to keep it out? I tried one of the noise reduction programs and found it to make things too smooth (in plain areas) and wipe out fine detail in other areas. Gave up on it. (Noise Ninja I believe...). That's what Neat Image does on its default settings. But it also has a great variety of adjustable parameters to allow you to fine tune the trade offs between various aspects of noise reduction, fine detail preservation, sharpening, etc., plus a variety of prepackaged custom sets and the ability to create your own. Takes quite a bit of learning, but well worth while. Different cameras, different lenses, and different kinds of subject and lighting can call for quite large differences in noise reduction adjustments. Doesn't Noise Ninja offer customisable noise reduction parameterisation? Topaz Labs, Denoise plugin offers another alternative which seems to do a reasonable job. http://www.topazlabs.com/denoise/ It is also offered as part of their plugin bundle. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#12
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Why all the noise about noise?
On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:41:12 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote: David J Taylor wrote: "Alan Browne" wrote in message ... [] Having said that, noise that looks like film grain can even enhance the mood of an image... of course noise can always be added in photoshop but cannot be removed very easily. Alan, even my Paint Shop Pro from a few versions back has a "Digital Camera Noise Removal" feature (I prefer "reduction" rather than "removal") - surely PhotoShop has something similar? G Good one. Are you happy? No it doesn't. You have to buy 3rd party s/w. Maybe Adobe are being bribed to keep it out? I tried one of the noise reduction programs and found it to make things too smooth (in plain areas) and wipe out fine detail in other areas. Gave up on it. (Noise Ninja I believe...). The effective use of noise-removal software is more art than science. There is no "one setting fits all" standard for any one camera model's ISO, exposure, or exposure setting. Even two cameras from the same production line, one made right after the other, can have differing noise profiles. The temperature of your camera will even change the noise profile from one image to the next. I find predetermined "noise profiles" and presets fairly useless for all of noise removal software. Each image must be handled as a unique example. Just like all cameras, all noise-removal programs can do an exceptional job, in talented hands that understand what all the settings are for. I haven't found one noise-removal method yet that can't do a good job, when used properly and carefully. Noise Ninja, Noiseware, Neat Image, PSP's "Digital Camera Noise Removal" filter, PL32's "Image Noise" filter, CleanerZoomer ... they're all good. Each has unique ways of maximizing the results. But if you take the time to learn them they all work as intended and work well. Some are easier to use than others, but those that are more difficult to learn can be more effective. The problem that beginners run into with using noise-removal software is that they depend on the presets and defaults in each program. Just like they pride their auto-everything snapshooter's DSLR cameras to do all the work for them, they expect all their software to be nothing more than one click of a mouse-button to fix what's wrong.. Finding that it won't work for their particular subjects and image-noise profiles for their images, they give up. Good, I say. Garbage in, garbage out. |
#13
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Why all the noise about noise?
"Alan Browne" wrote in message
... [] Good one. Are you happy? No it doesn't. You have to buy 3rd party s/w. Maybe Adobe are being bribed to keep it out? I tried one of the noise reduction programs and found it to make things too smooth (in plain areas) and wipe out fine detail in other areas. Gave up on it. (Noise Ninja I believe...). Yes, I'm happy with Paint Shop Pro 10, and I'm very surprised that the very expensive Adobe program does not offer such a noise-reduction facility. PSP's NR seems to work well. As I said, I find it best to compare with and without NR. Sometimes it's best to leave the grain for a "newsy" effect, other times the noise, particularly if it's coloured noise, can be slightly objectionable. How you judge the change will depend, I suspect, on viewing conditions (on the screen, printed etc. etc.). Cheers, David |
#14
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Why all the noise about noise?
On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 10:23:49 -0700 (PDT), eNo
wrote: Wow, I didn't know that about scratching itches. I wonder why some itches won't go away even when you scratch them? Not enough "noise" perhaps? Some nerve irritation (itch/sensory noise) lasts longer than the temporary noise that you add by scratching. When the sensory noise from scratching dies down, then you feel the longer lasting itch again. Many itches that appear seemingly out of nowhere are caused by microscopic nematodes (very tiny worms) that live within your body moving alongside nerves. It has been estimated that if you removed all the tissues of a person's body except for the nematodes that live within them during their lifetime, you could still probably recognize who the host person was. (Did you really want to know this?) One of the most unique nematodes are ones that live at the base of your eye-lash hairs. Everyone has them, they live no other place on earth, and nobody knows how they get from parent to child to begin with, nor how they evolved to live there in the first place. (last I heard anyway). Your body is not just human cells. Think of yourself like a balanced aquarium with many thousands of species living within it. As long as they all get along the aquarium thrives on its own. This is why they talk of your health "being out of balance" at times. For example, if some beneficial bacteria has been destroyed in your system from taking antibiotics, it needs to be replaced before your health is back in balance again. Many people eat active yogurt (acidophilus bacteria) as a temporary fix while their body is trying to get back in balance after an antibiotic treatment. Other more close-to-nature people will even eat small samplings of dirt, or not clean root vegetables from the garden very well, leaving some dirt on their food, just to replenish the now missing and beneficial bacteria in their systems that was destroyed by the antibiotics. I wonder if that's how noise-cancelling headphones work? I thought they just brought down the noise floor. Noise canceling headphones work on a whole different principle. They sample the external ambient noise and then invert the waveform. They add the inverted waveform of the ambient noise to the sounds that you want to hear through the headphone so the two waves cancel each other out. |
#15
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Why all the noise about noise?
dan sothers wrote:
On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:41:12 -0400, Alan Browne wrote: David J Taylor wrote: "Alan Browne" wrote in message ... [] Having said that, noise that looks like film grain can even enhance the mood of an image... of course noise can always be added in photoshop but cannot be removed very easily. Alan, even my Paint Shop Pro from a few versions back has a "Digital Camera Noise Removal" feature (I prefer "reduction" rather than "removal") - surely PhotoShop has something similar? G Good one. Are you happy? No it doesn't. You have to buy 3rd party s/w. Maybe Adobe are being bribed to keep it out? I tried one of the noise reduction programs and found it to make things too smooth (in plain areas) and wipe out fine detail in other areas. Gave up on it. (Noise Ninja I believe...). The problem that beginners run into with using noise-removal software is that they depend on the presets and defaults in each program. Actually I spent several hours on a single image with help from various sources trying to get a specific bit of noise to have less impact. The effect on other areas adjacent was not to my liking - fine detail was lost and affected the texture of the image in the area of concern (unless dialed back enough that effect wasn't ... effective). |
#16
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Why all the noise about noise?
David J Taylor wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message ... [] Good one. Are you happy? No it doesn't. You have to buy 3rd party s/w. Maybe Adobe are being bribed to keep it out? I tried one of the noise reduction programs and found it to make things too smooth (in plain areas) and wipe out fine detail in other areas. Gave up on it. (Noise Ninja I believe...). Yes, I'm happy with Paint Shop Pro 10, and I'm very surprised that the very expensive Adobe program does not offer such a noise-reduction facility. PSP's NR seems to work well. As I said, I find it best to compare with and without NR. Sometimes it's best to leave the grain for a "newsy" effect, other times the noise, particularly if it's coloured noise, can be slightly objectionable. How you judge the change will depend, I suspect, on viewing conditions (on the screen, printed etc. etc.). Except for some slide film scans where shadow noise can be objectionable, I rarely have issue enough with it to worry. I agree that $600+ programs like CS3/CS4 should have it ... OTOH, there is a world of 3rd party plugins out there that represent functionality that PS does not have. Perhaps Noise Ninja et al bribe the product managers at Adobe to leave such out. (I've heard so many times of late of people receiving FedEx (or UPS, Purolator, etc.) packages in W-A-Y oversized packages (eg: 2 cu. ft. box to hold a 10 cu. in. product package) that I wonder if some shipping co's have people following expediting employees to their watering hole and bribing them to overpack ... ) |
#17
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Why all the noise about noise?
"Alan Browne" wrote in message
... [] Except for some slide film scans where shadow noise can be objectionable, I rarely have issue enough with it to worry. I agree that $600+ programs like CS3/CS4 should have it ... OTOH, there is a world of 3rd party plugins out there that represent functionality that PS does not have. Putting it mildly, I would be disappointed to find that I had to buy add-ons to provide functionality missing from a $600 program. Perhaps Noise Ninja et al bribe the product managers at Adobe to leave such out. (I've heard so many times of late of people receiving FedEx (or UPS, Purolator, etc.) packages in W-A-Y oversized packages (eg: 2 cu. ft. box to hold a 10 cu. in. product package) that I wonder if some shipping co's have people following expediting employees to their watering hole and bribing them to overpack ... ) ... but a micro-SD card might get lost were it not over-sized in its packaging! G What annoys me more are those sealed, clear-plastic packages for things on sale from customer self selection racks - typically in airports - and even for SD cards. You know, the ones where you need scissors or a knife to open the package, but there's no way you are allowed to bring scissors or knives through security. So you end up struggling to unseal the package with your teeth or worse! David |
#18
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Why all the noise about noise?
On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 16:46:45 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote: dan sothers wrote: On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:41:12 -0400, Alan Browne wrote: David J Taylor wrote: "Alan Browne" wrote in message ... [] Having said that, noise that looks like film grain can even enhance the mood of an image... of course noise can always be added in photoshop but cannot be removed very easily. Alan, even my Paint Shop Pro from a few versions back has a "Digital Camera Noise Removal" feature (I prefer "reduction" rather than "removal") - surely PhotoShop has something similar? G Good one. Are you happy? No it doesn't. You have to buy 3rd party s/w. Maybe Adobe are being bribed to keep it out? I tried one of the noise reduction programs and found it to make things too smooth (in plain areas) and wipe out fine detail in other areas. Gave up on it. (Noise Ninja I believe...). The problem that beginners run into with using noise-removal software is that they depend on the presets and defaults in each program. Actually I spent several hours on a single image with help from various sources trying to get a specific bit of noise to have less impact. The effect on other areas adjacent was not to my liking - fine detail was lost and affected the texture of the image in the area of concern (unless dialed back enough that effect wasn't ... effective). Tsk tsk, Mr. GIGO (a.k.a. Alan Browne). It bears repeating: The effective use of noise-removal software is more art than science. ... The problem that beginners run into with using noise-removal software is that they depend on the presets and defaults in each program. Just like they pride their auto-everything snapshooter's DSLR cameras to do all the work for them, they expect all their software to be nothing more than one click of a mouse-button to fix what's wrong.. Finding that it won't work for their particular subjects and image-noise profiles for their images, they give up. Good, I say. Garbage in, garbage out. (GIGO) You don't know how to use the masking features of the noise removal program nor how to use the masking features of your editor? Even inexpensive PSP's noise removal filter lets you protect regions by hue/luminosity ranges. Something like you deserves to not be helped. I bet you even bitch about the fact that you have to turn your car's steering wheel to get from A to B every day. No wait, let me guess, you can only ride busses and then bitch about the fact that the driver is not even allowed to spoon-feed you then carry you to bed and tuck you in every night. What a pathetic point and shoot snapshooter you must be, no matter what camera or software is in your hands. |
#19
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Why all the noise about noise?
David J Taylor wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message ... [] Good one. Are you happy? No it doesn't. You have to buy 3rd party s/w. Maybe Adobe are being bribed to keep it out? I tried one of the noise reduction programs and found it to make things too smooth (in plain areas) and wipe out fine detail in other areas. Gave up on it. (Noise Ninja I believe...). Yes, I'm happy with Paint Shop Pro 10, and I'm very surprised that the very expensive Adobe program does not offer such a noise-reduction facility. PSP's NR seems to work well. As I said, I find it best to compare with and without NR. Sometimes it's best to leave the grain for a "newsy" effect, other times the noise, particularly if it's coloured noise, can be slightly objectionable. Since the detail is more in the luminance, and chromatic noise is usually much more objectionable, a good noise reduction tool should have the option of reducing chromatic noise and luminance noise to different degrees. -- Chris Malcolm |
#20
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Why all the noise about noise?
David J Taylor wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message ... [] Except for some slide film scans where shadow noise can be objectionable, I rarely have issue enough with it to worry. I agree that $600+ programs like CS3/CS4 should have it ... OTOH, there is a world of 3rd party plugins out there that represent functionality that PS does not have. Putting it mildly, I would be disappointed to find that I had to buy add-ons to provide functionality missing from a $600 program. To avoid serious disappointment then I suggest you be very careful not to look too hard :-) What annoys me more are those sealed, clear-plastic packages for things on sale from customer self selection racks - typically in airports - and even for SD cards. You know, the ones where you need scissors or a knife to open the package, but there's no way you are allowed to bring scissors or knives through security. So you end up struggling to unseal the package with your teeth or worse! There's a new product opporunity! A plastic package opening tool carefully designed to be of no use in hijacking an aeroplane. Should sell well in airports :-) -- Chris Malcolm |
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