Sparked interest to join the LF crew. Some questions to help me begin!:)

Well...I have a number of questions, but lets start here.

1) Is there a LF (4X5) camera that is portable or can even be a "street
shooting" type of a camera?

2) What are the lightest weight ones available?

3) How is focusing done with them?

4) Do you do your own developing or send in your sheets?

5) How costly is it to develop the film?

6) Can you handhold these cameras or is a tripod truly necessary?

7) If a tripod is not necessary, when is it necessary...well, aside
from the obvious that is use of a tripod with any format will yield
best results unless the tripod has issues?

8) Lastly, but likely not least important!....what would you recommend
as the best bang for the buck camera that is lightweight/portable/can
street shoot/and can use various lens lengths (I primarily love the
wide side of lenses...like 20mm in 35mm)...but also like to have some
options to shoot a range of say 20-120mm equivalent length to 35mm.
See below on what I am looking for in a camera/kit/etc.:


By best bang for the buck, I'm looking in terms of the requirements I'm
hoping to find:

-Color rendition...something like Rollei/Hassleblad for 6X6

-lens selection given I hope to shoot in the range equivalent to 35mm
terms of 20-120mm with a primary focus on the wide side.

-Sharpness/resolution

-lightweight

-street-wise=won't freak people out...can be used as a travel based kit
(see below...going to Europe starting the 15th of January)

-hope to handhold


Thanks everyone and hopefully I can find something before I leave on a
trip to Europe!!! Happy Holidays to all!!!

Progressiveabsolution spake thus:

Well...I have a number of questions, but lets start here.

1) Is there a LF (4X5) camera that is portable or can even be a "street
shooting" type of a camera?

Yes; the Crown Graphic, among others. It (along with its big brother the
Speed Graphic) is what you see in all those movies that show old press
cameras with flashbulbs. It was made to be used handheld.

3) How is focusing done with them?

Three methods available:

1. Ground glass (not suitable for most street shooting, obviously).
2. Rangefinder for cameras so equipped.
3. Pre-focusing: setting the focus by "guess", then going for the shot.

In the latter case, you can use the camera's "sportsfinder" for rough
framing.

4) Do you do your own developing or send in your sheets?

For B&W, do your own (almost everyone here would agree, I'm sure).

5) How costly is it to develop the film?

Cheap. (B&W.)

6) Can you handhold these cameras or is a tripod truly necessary?

See above. They did it back then. Check out, f'rinstance, the famous
shot of Jack Ruby shooting Oswald, which was made with a Crown/Speed
Graphic.

7) If a tripod is not necessary, when is it necessary...well, aside
from the obvious that is use of a tripod with any format will yield
best results unless the tripod has issues?

Slow shutter speeds, meaning low light. Or if sharpness is paramount.


--
Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really
care about the quality of your food, Wikipedia is where you go when
you're curious but don't really care about the quality of your knowledge.

- Matthew White's WikiWatch (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

David Nebenzahl wrote:
Progressiveabsolution spake thus:

Well...I have a number of questions, but lets start here.

1) Is there a LF (4X5) camera that is portable or can even be a "street
shooting" type of a camera?

Yes; the Crown Graphic, among others. It (along with its big brother the
Speed Graphic) is what you see in all those movies that show old press
cameras with flashbulbs. It was made to be used handheld.

3) How is focusing done with them?

Three methods available:

1. Ground glass (not suitable for most street shooting, obviously).
2. Rangefinder for cameras so equipped.
3. Pre-focusing: setting the focus by "guess", then going for the shot.

In the latter case, you can use the camera's "sportsfinder" for rough
framing.

4) Do you do your own developing or send in your sheets?

For B&W, do your own (almost everyone here would agree, I'm sure).

5) How costly is it to develop the film?

Cheap. (B&W.)

6) Can you handhold these cameras or is a tripod truly necessary?

See above. They did it back then. Check out, f'rinstance, the famous
shot of Jack Ruby shooting Oswald, which was made with a Crown/Speed
Graphic.

7) If a tripod is not necessary, when is it necessary...well, aside
from the obvious that is use of a tripod with any format will yield
best results unless the tripod has issues?

Slow shutter speeds, meaning low light. Or if sharpness is paramount.


--
Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really
care about the quality of your food, Wikipedia is where you go when
you're curious but don't really care about the quality of your knowledge.

- Matthew White's WikiWatch (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)



Sounds like the Crown Graphic being ligher may be better for me, though
I do need to investigate both furthermore. As to interchangeable
lenses for these cameras, what kind of color reproductions can I expect
from either of them and are their specific lenses I should be looking
out for that will produce a color similar to the Rollei/Hassy 6X6?

Thanks a lot for a brief intro. I'm looking for more info, but this is
a great start. I will be doing a lot of B+W, so I anticipate that
developing should not be too difficult there...but with color I'll have
to find a different route.

Progressiveabsolution spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Progressiveabsolution spake thus:

Well...I have a number of questions, but lets start here.

[...]

Sounds like the Crown Graphic being ligher may be better for me, though
I do need to investigate both furthermore. As to interchangeable
lenses for these cameras, what kind of color reproductions can I expect
from either of them and are their specific lenses I should be looking
out for that will produce a color similar to the Rollei/Hassy 6X6?

Forget comparisons to your Rollei or Hasselblad or whatever; LF lenses
are generaly sui generis. Also remember that all this stuff, apart from
the really expensive collector/user stuff, is going for pretty cheap
these days on eBay now that everybody is abandoning non-digital photography.

For my money (not very much!), you can't go far wrong with the most
common lens found on the Crown Graphics, the formidable Kodak Ektar
f/4.7 127mm (slightly wide-angle). Richard Knoppow here can tell you a
*lot* more about these; one thing is that Kodak sold this lens for,
among other reasons, to tout its color capabilites.


--
Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really
care about the quality of your food, Wikipedia is where you go when
you're curious but don't really care about the quality of your knowledge.

- Matthew White's WikiWatch (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

"Progressiveabsolution" wrote in message
ups.com...
Well...I have a number of questions, but lets start here.

1) Is there a LF (4X5) camera that is portable or can even be a "street
shooting" type of a camera?
************************************************** ********************
Progressive: Peter Gowland makes a few models and you can check them out on
his web site. I think it is just www.petergowland.com . Ric in Wisconsin.

Progressiveabsolution wrote:
Well...I have a number of questions, but lets start here.

1) Is there a LF (4X5) camera that is portable or can even be a "street
shooting" type of a camera?

2) What are the lightest weight ones available?

3) How is focusing done with them?

4) Do you do your own developing or send in your sheets?

5) How costly is it to develop the film?

6) Can you handhold these cameras or is a tripod truly necessary?

7) If a tripod is not necessary, when is it necessary...well, aside
from the obvious that is use of a tripod with any format will yield
best results unless the tripod has issues?

8) Lastly, but likely not least important!....what would you recommend
as the best bang for the buck camera that is lightweight/portable/can
street shoot/and can use various lens lengths (I primarily love the
wide side of lenses...like 20mm in 35mm)...but also like to have some
options to shoot a range of say 20-120mm equivalent length to 35mm.
See below on what I am looking for in a camera/kit/etc.:


By best bang for the buck, I'm looking in terms of the requirements I'm
hoping to find:

-Color rendition...something like Rollei/Hassleblad for 6X6

-lens selection given I hope to shoot in the range equivalent to 35mm
terms of 20-120mm with a primary focus on the wide side.

-Sharpness/resolution

-lightweight

-street-wise=won't freak people out...can be used as a travel based kit
(see below...going to Europe starting the 15th of January)

-hope to handhold


Thanks everyone and hopefully I can find something before I leave on a
trip to Europe!!! Happy Holidays to all!!!



It is also a good idea to look back at previous discussions on this
board. Much has been said about tripods, lenses, hand held cameras,
traveling with cameras and processing (see also rec.photo.darkroom).

There are also a number of fixed (or estimation) focus cameras that are
intended to be hand held (e.g., the Hobo or some aerial cameras).
There is not a lot to recommend them except that they are simple and
fairly light.

The very lightest cameras may not be so rigid or convenient for hand
holding. The Graphic cameras were a little more difficult to use with
wide angle lenses than some others (e.g., you may need to drop the bed
to avoid photographing part of the camera with really wide lenses).

Traveling with large cameras is always difficult. The film is
sometimes hard to find locally. Airport security can supply some
really amazing reactions (i.e., looking inside a view camera and
wondering where all the electronic is).

On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 14:48:39 -0800, Progressiveabsolution wrote:

Well...I have a number of questions, but lets start here.

1) Is there a LF (4X5) camera that is portable or can even be a "street
shooting" type of a camera?


The Crown and Speed Graphic cameras were the de facto standard in press
photography from the 20s-50s

2) What are the lightest weight ones available?


Well a Tachihara is only about 4 pounds, but this isn't a hand-holdable
model

3) How is focusing done with them?


The Crown/Speed Graphic press cameras have a rangefinder. Otherwise
typical large-format focusing is done with a dark cloth and a loupe
(obviously a tripod is necessary for this)

4) Do you do your own developing or send in your sheets?


I personally do B&W myself. Although some people have a lab do B&W as
well.

My local lab charges $2 to develop a single sheet of C41, E6, or B&W

5) How costly is it to develop the film?


See above. Pretty costly. When you consider the cost of a single sheet
of color film and developing, it can be $4 per exposure!

6) Can you handhold these cameras or is a tripod truly necessary?


Most large-format work is done with a tripod. I don't see why you would
want to handhold a large-format camera. If you are interested in handheld
photography, stick with smaller formats.

7) If a tripod is not necessary, when is it necessary...well, aside
from the obvious that is use of a tripod with any format will yield
best results unless the tripod has issues?


Well the only point in large-format is to get better quality from smaller
formats. Why fly to Hawaii and stay only 2 nights?

8) Lastly, but likely not least important!....what would you recommend
as the best bang for the buck camera that is lightweight/portable/can
street shoot/and can use various lens lengths (I primarily love the
wide side of lenses...like 20mm in 35mm)...but also like to have some
options to shoot a range of say 20-120mm equivalent length to 35mm.
See below on what I am looking for in a camera/kit/etc.:


You are looking for something that doesn't exist. The Graflex Crown
Graphic (or other press camera) is really the only handholdable option.
However your options for wide-angle become much more limited. The
standard lens on a Crown Graphic is probably equivalent to 30-35mm in 35mm.


By best bang for the buck, I'm looking in terms of the requirements I'm
hoping to find:

-Color rendition...something like Rollei/Hassleblad for 6X6


Mostly a function of film. Lens can have affect as well.

-lens selection given I hope to shoot in the range equivalent to 35mm
terms of 20-120mm with a primary focus on the wide side.


In 4x5, 90mm is roughly equivalent to a 24mm lens in 35mm format. I'm not
sure if a Crown Graphic can handle even a 90mm 4x5 lens.

-Sharpness/resolution


Function of lens, tripod, and film. Not camera.

-lightweight

-street-wise=won't freak people out...can be used as a travel based kit
(see below...going to Europe starting the 15th of January)


Any large-format camera freaks people out. Seems that half the time I
setup my camera, people come ask me why I'm shooting with "an antique
camera". This really bugs me about large-format.

-hope to handhold


Thanks everyone and hopefully I can find something before I leave on a
trip to Europe!!! Happy Holidays to all!!!

I wouldn't recommend large-format for a trip to Europe. I also plan on
traveling to Europe sometime in the next year, but my 4x5 setup will stay
home in favor of either my Mamiya medium-format or a dSLR (which I do not
own yet).

Thanks a lot for a brief intro. I'm looking for more info, but this is
a great start. I will be doing a lot of B+W, so I anticipate that
developing should not be too difficult there...but with color I'll have
to find a different route.

I too thought that developing 4x5 B&W film would be nice and easy since I
had much experience with developing roll film.

However I botched my first 10 sheets. It took another 30 sheets to get
consistent scratch-free and even development.

Developing sheet film is much harder and more sensitive to errors.

For example, if you develop with trays, you will scratch negatives. If
you develop with drums, you will get uneven development. All of this is
correctable with practice.

If you think you can start out in 4x5 and get good results on your first
outing, you are WRONG! Don't make this mistake! Your failure rate,
starting out, will probably be 50% or higher. There are so many things
that can go wrong during exposure and development.

Mike spake thus:

Thanks a lot for a brief intro. I'm looking for more info, but this is
a great start. I will be doing a lot of B+W, so I anticipate that
developing should not be too difficult there...but with color I'll have
to find a different route.

I too thought that developing 4x5 B&W film would be nice and easy since I
had much experience with developing roll film.

However I botched my first 10 sheets. It took another 30 sheets to get
consistent scratch-free and even development.

Developing sheet film is much harder and more sensitive to errors.

It can be, but doesn't necessarily have to be. See below.

For example, if you develop with trays, you will scratch negatives. If
you develop with drums, you will get uneven development. All of this is
correctable with practice.

Or, better yet, correctable by using another development method. Now,
before I say this, let me issue a disclaimer that yes, I recognize that
some folks swear by tray development as The Only Legitimate Way To
Develop Sheet Film. I happen to disagree: I tried it too, then quickly
discovered that by using development tubes (Beseler UniColor drums,
specifically), I could get reliable, repeatable and good results with a
minimum of fuss. There are other alternatives (Jobo, etc.) as well.

My take on tray development is that it's a good method *if* you have the
patience to learn to do it properly. Otherwise, you'll scratch your negs
every time.

If you think you can start out in 4x5 and get good results on your first
outing, you are WRONG! Don't make this mistake! Your failure rate,
starting out, will probably be 50% or higher. There are so many things
that can go wrong during exposure and development.

Again, probably true in most cases, but not necessarily so.

I've found that the single most vexatious aspect of producing
large-format negatives is DUST. Eliminating those little spots (which
produce black spots on your prints) is something I just haven't figured
out how to do. The methods of doing so (cleaning everything associated
with loading and exposing film) are obvious, and yet I still haven't
been able to lick this problem.


--
Just as McDonald's is where you go when you're hungry but don't really
care about the quality of your food, Wikipedia is where you go when
you're curious but don't really care about the quality of your knowledge.

- Matthew White's WikiWatch (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

Or, better yet, correctable by using another development method. Now,
before I say this, let me issue a disclaimer that yes, I recognize that
some folks swear by tray development as The Only Legitimate Way To
Develop Sheet Film. I happen to disagree: I tried it too, then quickly
discovered that by using development tubes (Beseler UniColor drums,
specifically), I could get reliable, repeatable and good results with a
minimum of fuss. There are other alternatives (Jobo, etc.) as well.


I've tried the Unicolor drums. They are not foolproof either.

What the original poster needs to realize is that you can't dive into
large-format and expect your initial results to be a success. Think of
all the pictures in Europe he could botch!