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#11
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The end of the DSLR
On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 22:16:29 +0200, Alfred Molon wrote:
http://www.dcresource.com/news/newsitem.php?id=3767 Olympus and Panasonic have announced a new camera standard with no mirror, EVF and interchangeable lenses. The days of the DSLR are counted - it's just a matter of time before (most) other manufacturers will follow and introduce EVIL cameras (EVF + interchangeable lenses). Most likely the swinging mirror will survive only in a small niche of cameras. The main issue in my opinion is the AF system, i.e. how to get a fast AF system without the mirror (the phase AF seems to need a mirror). As for resolution and refresh speed of the EVF I would expect the EVFs to quickly improve, although already now they are good enough for most purposes (ever tried to manually focus through an optical viewfinder?). I have indeed been wondering for some time why no one made an EVF with interchangeable lenses - seems like the only thing missing. |
#12
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The end of the DSLR
Alfred Molon wrote:
http://www.dcresource.com/news/newsitem.php?id=3767 The main issue in my opinion is the AF system, i.e. how to get a fast AF With nearly 4x less sensing area than a FF DSLR the 4/3 system is a dead end system for most photogs due to noise limiting the pixel sizes and hence number of pixels. -- -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. -- usenet posts from gmail.com and googlemail.com are filtered out. |
#13
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The end of the DSLR
On Tue, 5 Aug 2008 22:08:44 +0100, "Jake" wrote:
"Alfred Molon" wrote in message m... http://www.dcresource.com/news/newsitem.php?id=3767 Olympus and Panasonic have announced a new camera standard with no mirror, EVF and interchangeable lenses. The days of the DSLR are counted - it's just a matter of time before (most) other manufacturers will follow and introduce EVIL cameras (EVF + interchangeable lenses). Most likely the swinging mirror will survive only in a small niche of cameras. The main issue in my opinion is the AF system, i.e. how to get a fast AF system without the mirror (the phase AF seems to need a mirror). As for resolution and refresh speed of the EVF I would expect the EVFs to quickly improve, although already now they are good enough for most purposes (ever tried to manually focus through an optical viewfinder?). So, you are looking at a LCD instead of a real image? No thanks! Why would anyone choose to look at an LCD over an optical view finder?!? Ever try shooting straight down on an object with the camera mounted on a copy stand? Unless you put the copy stand on the floor, peering through a OVF is almost impossible. Perhaps this isn't important to you, but it answers your question of "Why would anyone...?". -- Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida |
#14
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The end of the DSLR
"Robert Sneddon" schrieb im Newsbeitrag ... In message , Jake writes "Alfred Molon" wrote in message news:MPG.2302d ... http://www.dcresource.com/news/newsitem.php?id=3767 Olympus and Panasonic have announced a new camera standard with no mirror, EVF and interchangeable lenses. So, you are looking at a LCD instead of a real image? Classic mirror-flip SLRs show a false image -- what is shown in the viewfinder is not the image currently impinging on the recording surface (whether it is film or an electronic sensor) but an image bounced off a mirror, round a prism and through assorted other lenses before it gets to the camera user's eye. Hopefully it is calibrated accurately and the viewfinder image's focussing matches the recording surface, otherwise there's a lot of out-of-focus shots and an expensive trip to the camera repair shop. An EVF shows the user what the camera's sensor is seeing, not a guesstimate of exposure and focus. No thanks! Why would anyone choose to look at an LCD over an optical view finder?!? Image enhancement, preview zoom, movie mode, continuous pre-shoot, high-speed continuous shooting, a whole range of reasons. Classic mirror-flip SLR systems can't do these things, the new non-mirror exchangeable-lens cameras will be able to. That's why mirror SLRs will be left behind in the dustbin of history, in the same way wet-plate chemistry photography was overtaken by "film". It will take a long time for EVFs to equal OVFs. I am a professional video cameraman, and our top-end cameras still have black and white CRT viewfinders, because LCDs are so poor--you can't focus with them worth a damn. No professional still photographer will accept working with today's poor EVFs, and I have seen nothing on the horizon to change that. Toby |
#15
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The end of the DSLR
Robert Sneddon wrote:
[] Classic mirror-flip SLRs show a false image -- what is shown in the viewfinder is not the image currently impinging on the recording surface (whether it is film or an electronic sensor) but an image bounced off a mirror, round a prism and through assorted other lenses before it gets to the camera user's eye. Hopefully it is calibrated accurately and the viewfinder image's focussing matches the recording surface, otherwise there's a lot of out-of-focus shots and an expensive trip to the camera repair shop. You are wrong about where the focus measurement surface lies. It is /not/ on the optical viewfinder. Even after all the bounces, the optical viewfinder image is vastly superior to any current production EVF. David |
#16
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The end of the DSLR
"Jake" wrote in message ... "Alfred Molon" wrote in message ... http://www.dcresource.com/news/newsitem.php?id=3767 Olympus and Panasonic have announced a new camera standard with no mirror, EVF and interchangeable lenses. The days of the DSLR are counted - it's just a matter of time before (most) other manufacturers will follow and introduce EVIL cameras (EVF + interchangeable lenses). Most likely the swinging mirror will survive only in a small niche of cameras. The main issue in my opinion is the AF system, i.e. how to get a fast AF system without the mirror (the phase AF seems to need a mirror). As for resolution and refresh speed of the EVF I would expect the EVFs to quickly improve, although already now they are good enough for most purposes (ever tried to manually focus through an optical viewfinder?). So, you are looking at a LCD instead of a real image? No thanks! Why would anyone choose to look at an LCD over an optical view finder?!? Anyway, I don't care what Olympus and Panasonic are doing to be honest, which says it all. Because he is an Olympus shooter and the Oly 4/3's viewfinders are are like having tunnel vision. |
#17
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The end of the DSLR
tony cooper wrote:
[] Ever try shooting straight down on an object with the camera mounted on a copy stand? Unless you put the copy stand on the floor, peering through a OVF is almost impossible. .... unless you buy the reflex finder adaptor, of course. Nikon certainly used to offer them, I expect Canon do as well. David |
#18
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Not the end of the DSLR
Alfred Molon wrote:
http://www.dcresource.com/news/newsitem.php?id=3767 Olympus and Panasonic have announced a new camera standard with no mirror, EVF and interchangeable lenses. The days of the DSLR are counted - it's just a matter of time before (most) other manufacturers will follow and introduce EVIL cameras (EVF + interchangeable lenses). Most likely the swinging mirror will survive only in a small niche of cameras. The main issue in my opinion is the AF system, i.e. how to get a fast AF system without the mirror (the phase AF seems to need a mirror). As for resolution and refresh speed of the EVF I would expect the EVFs to quickly improve, although already now they are good enough for most purposes (ever tried to manually focus through an optical viewfinder?). Alfred, I was using manual focus with optical viewfinders for 30 years, and achieved entirely satisfactory results. The AF will be a major problem, and there are /no/ current production cameras with an adequate EVF. If you want a compact camera, it's probably better to get a small-sensor camera with a fixed lens (and therefore no dust issues). There's room in the market for both DSLR and compact cameras. I have my doubts about a further niche system, requiring yet another set of lens purchases to get the most out of it. Cheers, David |
#19
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The end of the DSLR
Jake wrote:
"Alfred Molon" wrote in message ... http://www.dcresource.com/news/newsitem.php?id=3767 Olympus and Panasonic have announced a new camera standard with no mirror, EVF and interchangeable lenses. The days of the DSLR are counted - it's just a matter of time before (most) other manufacturers will follow and introduce EVIL cameras (EVF + interchangeable lenses). Most likely the swinging mirror will survive only in a small niche of cameras. The main issue in my opinion is the AF system, i.e. how to get a fast AF system without the mirror (the phase AF seems to need a mirror). As for resolution and refresh speed of the EVF I would expect the EVFs to quickly improve, although already now they are good enough for most purposes (ever tried to manually focus through an optical viewfinder?). So, you are looking at a LCD instead of a real image? No thanks! Why would anyone choose to look at an LCD over an optical view finder?!? Anyway, I don't care what Olympus and Panasonic are doing to be honest, which says it all. There are a number of things an EVF can do, such as display a histogram, with flashing 'blown out' areas, or other optional settings, and status information. Still, I MUCH prefer a real image from a good viewfinder. |
#20
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The end of the DSLR
In article , Robert Sneddon
wrote: Classic mirror-flip SLRs show a false image -- what is shown in the viewfinder is not the image currently impinging on the recording surface (whether it is film or an electronic sensor) but an image bounced off a mirror, round a prism and through assorted other lenses before it gets to the camera user's eye. Hopefully it is calibrated accurately and the viewfinder image's focussing matches the recording surface, otherwise there's a lot of out-of-focus shots and an expensive trip to the camera repair shop. it's a rare exception when it's not accurately calibrated, and it is *exactly* the same image as what hits the sensor (or film). An EVF shows the user what the camera's sensor is seeing, not a guesstimate of exposure and focus. except when the camera uses a secondary sensor for live view, such as in the sony dslrs. and the 'guesstimate' is not a guess at all -- the optical path length is the same. No thanks! Why would anyone choose to look at an LCD over an optical view finder?!? Image enhancement, preview zoom, movie mode, continuous pre-shoot, high-speed continuous shooting, a whole range of reasons. Classic mirror-flip SLR systems can't do these things, the new non-mirror exchangeable-lens cameras will be able to. That's why mirror SLRs will be left behind in the dustbin of history, in the same way wet-plate chemistry photography was overtaken by "film". except that autofocus off the sensor will be contrast detect and much slower than phase detect, there's a lag time with evf (and it never can be 0, although it might be 'good enough'), and evf works very poorly in dim light. and if the lcd display is on the back of the camera, it may be difficult to see in bright sunlight. so mirrors aren't going away any time soon. |
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