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No P&S for a serious hobbyist?



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 22nd 07, 10:07 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.point+shoot,rec.photo.digital.zlr
Nushar
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 31
Default No P&S for a serious hobbyist?

AAvK wrote:


: This is not how to respond to people.
: ...you worthless disrespectful cretin!
: You are absolutely mentally abnormal psychiatrically. There is a mental
: illness named " anti-social " and this a physical brain condition.
:
: YOU SHOULD NEVER treat people who work to help you as though they
: were a piece of trash that you simply use, and I'll never reply to you again.
: And if I ever do, it will be an interjection in order to cut you down!
:
: You are a complete and total zodiak weakling with a zero level of
: conscienciousness OR respect, OR appreciation for the kindness it
: takes for some to work and use their personal time to help you out.
: And in return, YOU absolutely have no valid opinion whatsoever.

Funny how people who wag their finger when they obviously don't know
what they are talking about, suddenly become "touch me not" sensitive
when they are at the receiving end.

All posts in this thread remain for all to see. Each participant here
can evaluate our conduct for himself or herself.

I am appreciative of everyone who offered sincere advice or opinion. Do
you see anybody else foaming and ranting like you are? None of us knows
it all, but we act with that awareness.

--
Z (Remove all XX, YY, ZZ)
  #12  
Old August 23rd 07, 06:51 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.point+shoot,rec.photo.digital.zlr
Nushar
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 31
Default Olympus 560 UZ

I wrote:

: The lightest of [SLR-likes] with 28-200+ is Panasonic Lumix FZ-18, which
: got alphabetically cut off in your list. If you wish, you can look it
: up directly or get to it by specifying the weight 500g. :-)

At this point I have to say that the just announced Olympus 560 uz is
also a candidate:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082309olysp560uz.asp

--
Z (Remove all XX, YY, ZZ)
  #13  
Old August 31st 07, 07:27 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.point+shoot,rec.photo.digital.zlr
Mike Jacoubowsky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 39
Default No P&S for a serious hobbyist?

Living with a very nice film SLR, and a digital p&s, i decided to
investigate a serious ditial p&s as my travel camera: compact size,
28-200 range, manual control.

Frankly, I am disgusted that with so many companies flooding the market
with so many models that they must be running out of model numbers to
name them, they have all decided not to offer even a single model that
will appeal to a serious hobbyist like me!

The cameras with all the feature I want are way too big for the purpose
(Lumix FZ-18, oLympus 550 SZ). Cameras of manageable size make you
give up on some important featu Lumix TZ-3 (no manual control) and
LX2 (limited telephoto) are probably the best examples.

So, I'll have to decide which feature to give up: compact size (FZ-18),
manual control (tz-3), telephoto (lx-2 or Leica version). If it is
telephoto I decide to give up, then I'd also investigate the Ricoh
models that start at 24mm.

Or I could just wait until somebody offers the first p&s for me. Why
spend money and still be unhappy? It is not like I don't have any
cameras to take pictures right now.



What you want is difficult to find, and not just because camera
manufacturers are idiots who focus too much on gadgets & spec and not enough
on picture quality.

Because they're able to keep adding & enhancing features on P&S cameras,
it's tempting to believe they can do anything. But the physical limitations
of the small sensor size, *especially* for wide-angle, become the deal
breaker. You & I are spoiled rotten, both of us by our SLRs (you by your
film, me by my Canon 350XT). And we want those same features & quality in a
P&S. And why not?

Because it's darned near impossible to design a wide-angle wide-range zoom
lens for a camera with a tiny sensor that doesn't display quite a bit of
chromatic aberration at the wide end. Even at 35mm it's a problem (about the
only real issue with my Fuji F10 & F30). Thus a severe limitation on picture
quality that can't be overcome with all manner of added features (image
stabilization, raw shooting, manual modes, etc).

My perfect camera would have all the features you want, with slight
modification. I don't need the super-long lens (100-150 at the long end
would be fine) but I'd love to have a 24 at the bottom... but would settle
for a 28. The wide range would be great because I take photos while riding
my bike, and can't take a whole lot of time setting up my shots. Raw mode
would be nice, because you've got more to deal with when correcting exposure
issues. A decent manual mode would be nice, and I'd *love* to have a manual
or fixed-focus option (because, when taking photos while riding, nearly
everything of interest is going to be 20+ feet away). Also long battery life
(the Fuji F30 excels there!) is a must. And I'd be willing to pay extra $$$
for a great lens!!! The lens is absolutely the weakest link in the Fuji F30.
One last thing would be reasonable moisture protection.

So I want it all too! But for top-quality photos, I'm going to have to stick
with my Rebel 350XT. Not because it has better electronics and shooting
modes, but because I can hang a wonderful piece of glass on it.

Sigh. If I'm wrong, and you find that perfect camera, please let me know. I
want it too!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


  #14  
Old August 31st 07, 10:46 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.point+shoot,rec.photo.digital.zlr
Dennis Gnad
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default No P&S for a serious hobbyist?

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

Living with a very nice film SLR, and a digital p&s, i decided to
investigate a serious ditial p&s as my travel camera: compact size,
28-200 range, manual control.

Frankly, I am disgusted that with so many companies flooding the market
with so many models that they must be running out of model numbers to
name them, they have all decided not to offer even a single model that
will appeal to a serious hobbyist like me!

The cameras with all the feature I want are way too big for the purpose
(Lumix FZ-18, oLympus 550 SZ). Cameras of manageable size make you
give up on some important featu Lumix TZ-3 (no manual control) and
LX2 (limited telephoto) are probably the best examples.

So, I'll have to decide which feature to give up: compact size (FZ-18),
manual control (tz-3), telephoto (lx-2 or Leica version). If it is
telephoto I decide to give up, then I'd also investigate the Ricoh
models that start at 24mm.

Or I could just wait until somebody offers the first p&s for me. Why
spend money and still be unhappy? It is not like I don't have any
cameras to take pictures right now.



What you want is difficult to find, and not just because camera
manufacturers are idiots who focus too much on gadgets & spec and not
enough on picture quality.

Because they're able to keep adding & enhancing features on P&S cameras,
it's tempting to believe they can do anything. But the physical
limitations of the small sensor size, *especially* for wide-angle, become
the deal breaker. You & I are spoiled rotten, both of us by our SLRs (you
by your film, me by my Canon 350XT). And we want those same features &
quality in a P&S. And why not?

Because it's darned near impossible to design a wide-angle wide-range zoom
lens for a camera with a tiny sensor that doesn't display quite a bit of
chromatic aberration at the wide end. Even at 35mm it's a problem (about
the only real issue with my Fuji F10 & F30). Thus a severe limitation on
picture quality that can't be overcome with all manner of added features
(image stabilization, raw shooting, manual modes, etc).

My perfect camera would have all the features you want, with slight
modification. I don't need the super-long lens (100-150 at the long end
would be fine) but I'd love to have a 24 at the bottom... but would settle
for a 28. The wide range would be great because I take photos while riding
my bike, and can't take a whole lot of time setting up my shots. Raw mode
would be nice, because you've got more to deal with when correcting
exposure issues. A decent manual mode would be nice, and I'd *love* to
have a manual or fixed-focus option (because, when taking photos while
riding, nearly everything of interest is going to be 20+ feet away). Also
long battery life (the Fuji F30 excels there!) is a must. And I'd be
willing to pay extra $$$ for a great lens!!! The lens is absolutely the
weakest link in the Fuji F30. One last thing would be reasonable moisture
protection.

So I want it all too! But for top-quality photos, I'm going to have to
stick with my Rebel 350XT. Not because it has better electronics and
shooting modes, but because I can hang a wonderful piece of glass on it.

Sigh. If I'm wrong, and you find that perfect camera, please let me know.
I want it too!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


Hi,

I would also more settle with your Ideas.... But right now, I will probably
buy one of the chdk-hack-compatible Canon Powershots. So I have the RAW
Format... just most of those Cameras start at 35mm... So I might try with a
conversion lens if that doesnt make it too big. I wait some time, so maybe
the Powershot S80 will be supported soon, which will solve my issues.
The cool thing with the hack is that you can let it set up hyper focal
distance for you and run scripts.

But of course after all, the hack is not such a good solution as some
programs just don't eat the raw format and need a conversion to dng with a
special tool before doing so.

The Powershot G9 will also just start at 35mm
It's really a shame for all Camera manufacturers out there, except maybe
Ricoh and Sigma which at least have an approach to something different.
(Whilst Ricohs Sensor-experiences aren't the best, Sigma just wants to
offer a fixed lens, and not something like any Zoom)

I'm in for the perfect camera too! ;-)

- Dennis
  #15  
Old August 31st 07, 03:53 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.point+shoot
RPS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default No P&S for a serious hobbyist?

Olympus SP-560 UZ and Panasonic FZ18 begin at 28mm and seem to offer
many things you want. Ricoh GX100 begins at 24mm.

Sorry, nothing can be done about small sensors. It seems to be a
"cartel" decision not to offer decent size sensors in P&S cameras.
  #16  
Old September 1st 07, 06:29 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.point+shoot
Mike Jacoubowsky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 39
Default No P&S for a serious hobbyist?

Olympus SP-560 UZ and Panasonic FZ18 begin at 28mm and seem to offer
many things you want. Ricoh GX100 begins at 24mm.

Sorry, nothing can be done about small sensors. It seems to be a
"cartel" decision not to offer decent size sensors in P&S cameras.


Not exactly. Larger sensors dictate larger lenses. And larger lenses make
for a... bigger camera. Darn, hate those simple laws of physics.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


  #17  
Old September 1st 07, 07:17 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.point+shoot
Dennis Gnad
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default No P&S for a serious hobbyist?

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

Olympus SP-560 UZ and Panasonic FZ18 begin at 28mm and seem to offer
many things you want. Ricoh GX100 begins at 24mm.

Sorry, nothing can be done about small sensors. It seems to be a
"cartel" decision not to offer decent size sensors in P&S cameras.


Not exactly. Larger sensors dictate larger lenses. And larger lenses make
for a... bigger camera. Darn, hate those simple laws of physics.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com



That's not really correct...

There were also a lot of small pocketable cameras in the 35mm-film age, when
there were no digital sensors.... And they were able of having things like
a 3x zoom and things like that. The lenses weren't really/much bigger than
of current pocketable digicams.

examples: Fujifilm DL-270 ZOOM, Pentax IQZoom 115, .. just look for compact
cameras at ebay

--Dennis
  #18  
Old September 2nd 07, 08:37 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.point+shoot
Mike Jacoubowsky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 39
Default No P&S for a serious hobbyist?

Sorry, nothing can be done about small sensors. It seems to be a
"cartel" decision not to offer decent size sensors in P&S cameras.


Not exactly. Larger sensors dictate larger lenses. And larger lenses make
for a... bigger camera. Darn, hate those simple laws of physics.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com



That's not really correct...

There were also a lot of small pocketable cameras in the 35mm-film age,
when
there were no digital sensors.... And they were able of having things like
a 3x zoom and things like that. The lenses weren't really/much bigger than
of current pocketable digicams.

examples: Fujifilm DL-270 ZOOM, Pentax IQZoom 115, .. just look for
compact
cameras at ebay

--Dennis


Afraid the laws of physics still apply. I took a quick look at the Pentax
you listed; at wide-angle, the max aperture is F4. The Fuji is even worse,
at F5. That's how they got the lens size down, no magic involved. If you've
got a large imaging area (either film or digital sensor), it's going to take
a correspondingly large piece of glass for the same amount of light to hit
the sensor.

Small cameras, whether film or digital, simply cannot disobey the basic laws
of physics. You can make the lens smaller (and thus camera size) by either
using a smaller sensor or giving up an F stop or two.

Perhaps we could evolve a digital sensor so incredibly sensitive that it
could be very small and noise-free, such that a lens with a max aperture of
F8 is all that's needed. That could really get size down! But then I'm told
there are problems with such a small lens, due to the refraction of light at
extreme angles (if I've got this right). Did pinhole cameras have such
issues? :)

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


  #19  
Old September 2nd 07, 04:05 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.point+shoot
Dennis Gnad
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default No P&S for a serious hobbyist?

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

Sorry, nothing can be done about small sensors. It seems to be a
"cartel" decision not to offer decent size sensors in P&S cameras.

Not exactly. Larger sensors dictate larger lenses. And larger lenses
make for a... bigger camera. Darn, hate those simple laws of physics.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com



That's not really correct...

There were also a lot of small pocketable cameras in the 35mm-film age,
when
there were no digital sensors.... And they were able of having things
like a 3x zoom and things like that. The lenses weren't really/much
bigger than of current pocketable digicams.

examples: Fujifilm DL-270 ZOOM, Pentax IQZoom 115, .. just look for
compact
cameras at ebay

--Dennis


Afraid the laws of physics still apply. I took a quick look at the Pentax
you listed; at wide-angle, the max aperture is F4. The Fuji is even worse,
at F5. That's how they got the lens size down, no magic involved. If
you've got a large imaging area (either film or digital sensor), it's
going to take a correspondingly large piece of glass for the same amount
of light to hit the sensor.

Small cameras, whether film or digital, simply cannot disobey the basic
laws of physics. You can make the lens smaller (and thus camera size) by
either using a smaller sensor or giving up an F stop or two.

Perhaps we could evolve a digital sensor so incredibly sensitive that it
could be very small and noise-free, such that a lens with a max aperture
of F8 is all that's needed. That could really get size down! But then I'm
told there are problems with such a small lens, due to the refraction of
light at extreme angles (if I've got this right). Did pinhole cameras have
such
issues? :)

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com



Yeah, of course the lens will let through less light, but that doesn't mean
it's not possible.

With a bigger sensor you can then push up the ISO, and it will be less
noisy. Of course the lens will let less light through. So in the end you
might have the same, if there wasn't diffraction.

And I also think the factor of the lens letting light through depending on
the image circle is not directly proportional to a sensor being more or
less sensitive to light and being more/less noisy depending on the image
circle it can capture.

I think that it behaves more exponential at sensor size, but linear in lens
size? I'm not sure at all, but to my observation it looks like that (at
least as a rule of thumb).

So, I think, a bigger and more sensitive sensor and slower (letting less
light through) lens will be a better combination than a fast lens and small
sensor. (also because of the diffraction, and yes pinholes can suffer from
diffraction, but if you have a larger format camera it will be less)

--Dennis
  #20  
Old September 3rd 07, 03:51 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.point+shoot
Mike Jacoubowsky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 39
Default No P&S for a serious hobbyist?

So, I think, a bigger and more sensitive sensor and slower (letting less
light through) lens will be a better combination than a fast lens and
small
sensor. (also because of the diffraction, and yes pinholes can suffer from
diffraction, but if you have a larger format camera it will be less)



So you're proposing an extraordinary sensor that could work at, say, F16 and
deliver great images. One thing's for certain; you'd have great depth of
field! Of course, that can be as much a curse as a blessing.

We need someone with strong knowledge of optics to help us out on this one.
Anyone want to step in?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


 




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