D70 Raw Ain't?

I read on the net today that the Nikon version of raw isn't really, and then
the article got into a lot of stuff that was basically over my head as to
the ramifications.

So the question, is this just another ****ing contest, or does the lack of a
"real" raw have any substantial practical ramifications for folks
considering this camera for the purpose of making pictures as opposed to
earning a degree in engineering?

Thanks

Dane Brickman wrote:

So the question, is this just another ****ing contest, or does the lack of a
"real" raw have any substantial practical ramifications for folks
considering this camera for the purpose of making pictures as opposed to
earning a degree in engineering?

The D70 offers only compressed RAW, which is described (by Nikon) as being
visually lossless, but mathematically lossy. There is no indication of
just what is being lost, but the basic idea is that you can't get back to
the uncompressed RAW exactly from the compressed RAW, but Nikon says it
doesn't matter. I can't see how it matters, having just shot well over
a thousand pictures with a D70 in two weeks, all in RAW, and being rather
extremely pleased with the results -- not to mention the quickness of the
compressed RAW mode (you'll never even notice it writing out the images
unless maybe you're a sports shooter or something).

--
Jeremy |

Nikon's website actually calls it LOSSLESS, not virtually lossy. I've only
seen anecdotes to the effect that it is lossy.

Storage System: Compressed NEF (RAW): 12-bit lossless compression

http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php...roductNr=25214

Tom
"Jeremy Nixon" wrote in message
...
Dane Brickman wrote:

So the question, is this just another ****ing contest, or does the lack
of a
"real" raw have any substantial practical ramifications for folks
considering this camera for the purpose of making pictures as opposed to
earning a degree in engineering?

The D70 offers only compressed RAW, which is described (by Nikon) as being
visually lossless, but mathematically lossy. There is no indication of
just what is being lost, but the basic idea is that you can't get back to
the uncompressed RAW exactly from the compressed RAW, but Nikon says it
doesn't matter. I can't see how it matters, having just shot well over
a thousand pictures with a D70 in two weeks, all in RAW, and being rather
extremely pleased with the results -- not to mention the quickness of the
compressed RAW mode (you'll never even notice it writing out the images
unless maybe you're a sports shooter or something).

--
Jeremy |

On 2004-07-20, Tom Scales wrote:
Nikon's website actually calls it LOSSLESS, not virtually lossy. I've only
seen anecdotes to the effect that it is lossy.

Storage System: Compressed NEF (RAW): 12-bit lossless compression


Nikon is playing a semantic marketing game he Yes, the compression
algorithm itself is lossless. However before compression, the data is
mapped from 12-bit linear to 9-bit log data. You cannot get the exact
12-bit linear encoding back.

When they used this compression scheme on the D100, Nikon called it
"virtually lossless". No one has been able to find a technical reason
for Nikon to change the description. Some Nikonians feel the
compressed raw is inferior to the uncompressed raw.

http://www.majid.info/mylos/weblog/2004/05/02-1.html

--
Erik

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:11:33 GMT
From: E. Magnuson
Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital
Subject: D70 Raw Ain't?

On 2004-07-20, Tom Scales wrote:
Nikon's website actually calls it LOSSLESS, not virtually lossy. I've only
seen anecdotes to the effect that it is lossy.

Storage System: Compressed NEF (RAW): 12-bit lossless compression


Nikon is playing a semantic marketing game he Yes, the compression
algorithm itself is lossless. However before compression, the data is
mapped from 12-bit linear to 9-bit log data. You cannot get the exact
12-bit linear encoding back.

When they used this compression scheme on the D100, Nikon called it
"virtually lossless". No one has been able to find a technical reason
for Nikon to change the description. Some Nikonians feel the
compressed raw is inferior to the uncompressed raw.

http://www.majid.info/mylos/weblog/2004/05/02-1.html

--
Erik


See also the discussion of RAW (and how to get "true raw") from a D70 at
Christian Buils site:

http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/d70v10d/eval.htm

Dr Peter R Hobson

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:55:53 +0100, Peter R Hobson
wrote:

[...snip...]

See also the discussion of RAW (and how to get "true raw") from a D70 at
Christian Buils site:

http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/d70v10d/eval.htm

Dr Peter R Hobson

Thank you very much for that, Peter! Most informative.

I've recently purchased a D70, and besides normal photography you can
probably guess what other use I want to put it to - hence my interest
in a true RAW format.

--
- Helge Nareid
Nordmann i utlendighet, Aberdeen, Scotland
For e-mail, please use my initials with the same domain as the posted address

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:27:59 -0400, "Dane Brickman"
wrote:

I read on the net today that the Nikon version of raw isn't really, and then
the article got into a lot of stuff that was basically over my head as to
the ramifications.

So the question, is this just another ****ing contest, or does the lack of a
"real" raw have any substantial practical ramifications for folks
considering this camera for the purpose of making pictures as opposed to
earning a degree in engineering?

Thanks


In the D100 group on Yahoo there was a lengthy discussion of this very
topic. One explanation proferred was that enough bits were kept on the
D70 to generate 16 million colors and that this was the most that a
human eye cam discern. Hence the claim "lossless".

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:27:59 -0400, "Dane Brickman"
wrote:

I read on the net today that the Nikon version of raw isn't really, and then
the article got into a lot of stuff that was basically over my head as to
the ramifications.

So the question, is this just another ****ing contest, or does the lack of a
"real" raw have any substantial practical ramifications for folks
considering this camera for the purpose of making pictures as opposed to
earning a degree in engineering?

Thanks


In the D100 group on Yahoo there was a lengthy discussion of this very
topic. One explanation proferred was that enough bits were kept on the
D70 to generate 16 million colors and that this was the most that a
human eye cam discern. Hence the claim "lossless".